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Some reasons why continuationism may be a dead philosophy.

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In Charismatic and Pentecostal circles the predominant theology is a kind of holiness Arminianism with a good smattering of Word Of Faith mixed in but not a lot of Calvinism. And in continuationist circles Calvinism is the predominant theology. It seems that men like Wayne Grudem and John Piper (who are continuationists) represent a theology and a philosophy that is on the fringes of Charismatic and Pentecostal beliefs. So even though they accept continuation of spiritual gifts like those in First Corinthians chapters 12 and 14 they believe that there is something essentially different about prophecy as it described in Deuteronomy 18 and what happens in current Charismatic meetings. Their fringe status leads me to think that their views may be a dead branch of the mighty movement of Charismatic & Pentecostal religion.
 
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Biblicist

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In Charismatic and Pentecostal circles the predominant theology is a kind of holiness Arminianism with a good smattering of Word Of Faith mixed in but not a lot of Calvinism. And in continuationist circles Calvinism is the predominant theology.
MC, I had to read this a couple of times before I realised that you have mixed up some of your terminology. For instance, how can Pentecostal and charismatic theology be "predominantly Arminian" where you then say that "Calvinism is the predominant theology"; as you should realise, it can only be one or the other - not both!

By the way, I would agree that Pentecostal theology is highly (almost entirely) Arminian but within the Charismatic movement it would probably be half and half where maybe a few more would be Arminian than Calvinist. As for the reported millions of Roman Catholic charismatics they would be neither where I guess that they would be maybe "Augustinian".

It seems that men like Wayne Grudem and John Piper (who are continuationists) represent a theology and a philosophy that is on the fringes of Charismatic and Pentecostal beliefs.
Now that you have made a statement without bothering to suggest why they are both different, could you maybe provide us with a hint or should we simply guess?
 
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MoreCoffee

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how can Pentecostal and charismatic theology be "predominantly Arminian" where you then say that "Calvinism is the predominant theology"
Charismatic & Pentecostal theology is distinct from Continuationist theology. The two groups are not the same. Continuationists are a fringe group on the Calvinist edges of the "gifts are for today" spectrum of professing christians.
 
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Biblicist

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Charismatic & Pentecostal theology is distinct from Continuationist theology. The two groups are not the same. Continuationists are a fringe group on the Calvinist edges of the "gifts are for today" spectrum of professing christians.
Oh dear . . . sorry MC, a Continuist is a Pentecostal (both Trinitarian and the other) and a charismatic, be they Anglican, Baptist, Lutheran, Roman Catholic etc. Continuists believe in the continuation of the Manifestations of the Spirit, whereas the cessationist believes that they ceased at some earlier time, though they can't quite agree when this was supposed to be. I'm really surprised that you have not understood how the two terms Continuism and cessationism have been employed down through the decades.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Oh dear . . . sorry MC, a Continuist is a Pentecostal (both Trinitarian and the other) and a charismatic, be they Anglican, Baptist, Lutheran, Roman Catholic etc. Continuists believe in the continuation of the Manifestations of the Spirit, whereas the cessationist believes that they ceased at some earlier time, though they can't quite agree when this was supposed to be. I'm really surprised that you have not understood how the two terms Continuism and cessationism have been employed down through the decades.
I borrowed the terminology from John Piper who prefers to be seen as a continuationist while Pentecostals prefer to be counted as pentecostal and Charismatics prefer to be counted as charismatic. I've never heard of a Continuist.
 
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I borrowed the terminology from John Piper who prefer to be seen as a continuationist while Pentecostals prefer to be counted as pentecostal and Charismatics prefer to be counted as charismatic. I've never heard of a Continuist.
As John Piper is a bit of a complicated individual, in that he holds to an extremem form of Calvinism, then he might have possibly used the term Continuism in a specific context where he was maybe trying to explain why his own Continuist stand is different to most other Pentecostals and charismatics. Actually you're a bit of a brave soul by delving into John Piper's perspectives as they are certainly different to most. Even though I am horrified with his extreme form of Calvinism, when we consider that in our day and age that few men are seemingly prepared to stand their ground, I actually find that I have to give Piper some credit for this.

As for the terms Continuism and cessationism, even though Pentecostals and charismatics use the term cessationism a lot, we probably don't use Continuism to the same degree - or so it seems to me at least.
 
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As John Piper is a bit of a complicated individual, in that he holds to an extremem form of Calvinism, then he might have possibly used the term Continuism in a specific context where he was maybe trying to explain why his own Continuist stand is different to most other Pentecostals and charismatics. Actually you're a bit of a brave soul by delving into John Piper's perspectives as they are certainly different to most. Even though I am horrified with his extreme form of Calvinism, when we consider that in our day and age that few men are seemingly prepared to stand their ground, I actually find that I have to give Piper some credit for this.

As for the terms Continuism and cessationism, even though Pentecostals and charismatics use the term cessationism a lot, we probably don't use Continuism to the same degree - or so it seems to me at least.
I don't intend to debate the terms. Suffice it that I am using Continuationist for Calvinist and Calvinist like theologies that embrace the continuation of gifts that are like or possibly identical to those mentioned in First Corinthians 12 & 14. I will use either Charismatic & Pentecostal for the majority view within the (broadly speaking) Charismatic & Pentecostal movements. I may on occasion abbreviate Charismatic & Pentecostal to Charismatic or to Pentecostal if the differences between Charismatic views and Pentecostal views is not especially relevant to the subject under discussion.
 
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I don't intend to debate the terms. Suffice it that I am using Continuationist for Calvinist and Calvinist like theologies . . .
In all honesty MC I think that this is rather a silly approach to take, why don't you use terms in the same way as the rest of us do. Could I maybe refer to Roman Catholics as being those who adhere to the teachings of Ian Paisley simply because it suits my purposes, afterall, Paisley is Irish as are many Roman Catholics.
 
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In all honesty MC I think that this is rather a silly approach to take, why don't you use terms in the same way as the rest of us do. Could I maybe refer to Roman Catholics as being those who adhere to the teachings of Ian Paisley simply because it suits my purposes, afterall, Paisley is Irish as are many Roman Catholics.
Sorry, but your post appears to be argument for the sake of arguing. Besides the Catholic Church is not Roman in any especially significant sense except for being head-quartered in Rome. As for Ian Paisley and Northern Irishmen ... seems unhelpful to the discussion. What terms do you recommend? Given that I am using a distinction that John Piper and several other Calvinist Continuationists use for themselves to distinguish their views from the general Charismatic & Pentecostal view/s?
 
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I don't intend to debate the terms. Suffice it that I am using Continuationist for Calvinist and Calvinist like theologies that embrace the continuation of gifts that are like or possibly identical to those mentioned in First Corinthians 12 & 14. I will use either Charismatic & Pentecostal for the majority view within the (broadly speaking) Charismatic & Pentecostal movements. I may on occasion abbreviate Charismatic & Pentecostal to Charismatic or to Pentecostal if the differences between Charismatic views and Pentecostal views is not especially relevant to the subject under discussion.
When people use the term false dichotomy they probably mean false dilemma. You on the other hand have provided the perfect example of a false dichotomy.

:)
 
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MoreCoffee

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When people use the term false dichotomy they probable mean false dilemma. You in the other hand have provided the perfect example of a false dichotomy.

:)
Sorry, I do not quite get what you mean. Would you explain it please?
 
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Biblicist

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Sorry, but your post appears to be argument for the sake of arguing. Besides the Catholic Church is not Roman in any especially significant sense except for being head-quartered in Rome. As for Ian Paisley and Northern Irishmen ... seems unhelpful to the discussion. What terms do you recommend? Given that I am using a distinction that John Piper and several other Calvinist Continuationists use for themselves to distinguish their views from the general Charismatic & Pentecostal view/s?
As I was more than a little perturbed that you would want to use terminology in opposition to its normal understood meaning, then this is why I added in my flippant remark regarding Paisley. People have enough trouble with understanding theological terminology and when we try and redifine a term to suit our purposes then this only creates confusion. In all probability most people will wonder what you are talking about as even those who do a Google check for the meaning of Continuism and cessationism will be at a complete loss as to how you are using the term.

About all that you can do is to refer to their individual beliefs, where as an Arminian I tend to adhere to the Calvinist Wayne Grudem's understanding of prophecy, so in reality there is no easy way to to this but you will definitely have to provide a summary of both Grudems and Carsons viewpoints. As for Wayne Grudem, he undoubtedly set the bench-mark for how we define NT prophecy way back in 1988 with his book The Gift of Prophecy. I don't know what changes he has made in his 2000 revision but undoubtedly this is another book that I will need to purchase - be it 15 years after the event!
 
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Sorry, I do not quite get what you mean. Would you explain it please?
A false dichotomy occurs when a person attempts to falsely characterize things within two categories (generally opposites). This can be done to objects, ideas, or whatever.

A false dilemma occurs where a person falsely attempts to create only two options (which are generally equally undesirable). A false dilemma is quite a bit more ethereal/abstract than a false dichotomy.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Okay, Wilipedia says
Continuationism is a Christian theological belief that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have continued to this present age, specifically those sometimes called "sign gifts" such as tongues and prophecy. Continuationism is the opposite of Cessationism.

Continuationists believe that the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit are still distributed today, are still in use, and are still needed in the church. The same Holy Spirit that the Apostle Paul wrote of, claiming that it gave him supernatural abilities, was also written about in the Old Testament, which claims that it also endowed such abilities upon those God specifically chose to accomplish His works, as in the New Testament .
===
The Charismatic Movement is the international trend of historically mainstream congregations adopting beliefs and practices similar to Pentecostals. Fundamental to the movement is the use of spiritual gifts. Among Protestants, the movement began around 1960. Among Roman Catholics, it originated around 1967.
==
Pentecostalism or Classical Pentecostalism is a renewal movement[1] within Protestant[2] Christianity that places special emphasis on a direct personal experience of God through the baptism with the Holy Spirit. The term Pentecostal is derived from Pentecost, the Greek name for the Jewish Feast of Weeks. For Christians, this event commemorates the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the followers of Jesus Christ, as described in the second chapter of the Book of Acts.

Like other forms of evangelical Protestantism, Pentecostalism adheres to the inerrancy of scripture and the necessity of accepting Christ as personal Lord and Savior. It is distinguished by belief in the baptism with the Holy Spirit as an experience separate from conversion that enables a Christian to live a Holy Spirit–filled and empowered life. This empowerment includes the use of spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues and divine healing—two other defining characteristics of Pentecostalism. Because of their commitment to biblical authority, spiritual gifts, and the miraculous, Pentecostals tend to see their movement as reflecting the same kind of spiritual power and teachings that were found in the Apostolic Age of the early church. For this reason, some Pentecostals also use the term Apostolic or Full Gospel to describe their movement.

Pentecostalism emerged in the early 20th century among radical adherents of the Holiness movement who were energized by revivalism and expectation for the imminent Second Coming of Christ. Believing that they were living in the end times, they expected God to spiritually renew the Christian Church thereby bringing to pass the restoration of spiritual gifts and the evangelization of the world. In 1900, Charles Parham, an American evangelist and faith healer, began teaching that speaking in tongues was the Bible evidence of Spirit baptism. The three-year-long Azusa Street Revival in Los Angeles, California, resulted in the spread of Pentecostalism throughout the United States and the rest of the world as visitors carried the Pentecostal experience back to their home churches or felt called to the mission field. While virtually all Pentecostal denominations trace their origins to Azusa Street, the movement has experienced a variety of divisions and controversies. An early dispute centered on challenges to the doctrine of the Trinity. As a result, the Pentecostal Movement is divided between trinitarian and non-trinitarian branches.

Comprising over 700 denominations and a large number of independent churches, there is no central authority governing Pentecostalism; however, many denominations are affiliated with the Pentecostal World Fellowship. There are over 279 million Pentecostals worldwide, and the movement is growing in many parts of the world, especially the global South. Since the 1960s, Pentecostalism has increasingly gained acceptance from other Christian traditions, and Pentecostal beliefs concerning Spirit baptism and spiritual gifts have been embraced by non-Pentecostal Christians in Protestant and Catholic churches through the Charismatic Movement. Together, Pentecostal and Charismatic Christianity numbers over 500 million adherents.[3]
These terms seem distinct to me. If I pick Continuationist to hone in on Calvinist people who hold to Charismatic views about gifts continuing in their denominations then that is fair enough isn't it? They do not want to be called Pentecostal because their theology differs from that of Pentecostalism and that do not want to be called Charismatic because their theology is a minority view within the Charismatic movement. Furthermore, since prominent Calvinists who hold to continuation of various supernatural gifts want to be called continuationists as distinct from both Pentecostal and Charismatic that seems good to me.
 
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MoreCoffee

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A false dichotomy occurs when a person attempts to falsely characterize things within two categories (generally opposites). This can be done to objects, ideas, or whatever.

A false dilemma occurs where a person falsely attempts to create only two options (which are generally equally undesirable). A false dilemma is quite a bit more ethereal/abstract than a false dichotomy.
Yes, well that is irrelevant to what I have written in my posts.
 
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Wordkeeper

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Yes, well that is irrelevant to what I have written in my posts.
A dichotomy is a partition of a whole (or a set) into two parts (subsets) that are:

Jointly exhaustive: everything must belong to one part or the other, and

mutually exclusive: nothing can belong simultaneously to both parts.

Such a partition is also frequently called a bipartition.


You have described Calvinists as holding continuationistic views and Arminian as having charismatic views. The two views are the same. They are NOT exclusive or exhaustive.


A false dichotomy in biology would be to call all things vertebrate or invertebrate. The correct dichotomy would be to say that all things are either animate or inanimate .



The right form of your dichotomy would be to describe all believers as either cessationist or continuist.


Quote


If I can be permitted an overgeneralization, the problem with charismatics is that they believe that God not only can heal, but that he must heal. God thus becomes an instrument, wielded by the almighty Christian. That is one reason why, historically, charismata has been a movement among Arminians. At the same time, the problem with non-charismatics is that although they claim that God can heal, they act as if he won't. I don't really think they believe in God's ability--they don't really believe that God can heal. Thus, the problem with charismatics is a denial of God's sovereignty; the problem with non-charismatics is a denial of God's ability or goodness or both.



https://bible.org/article/uneasy-conscience-non-charismatic-evangelical
 
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MoreCoffee

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Yes, well that is irrelevant to what I have written in my posts.

A dichotomy is a partition of a whole (or a set) into two parts (subsets) that are:jointly exhaustive: everything must belong to one part or the other, andmutually exclusive: nothing can belong simultaneously to both parts.Such a partition is also frequently called a bipartition.


You have described cabinets as holding continuation views and Arminian as charismatic views. The two views are the same. They are not exhaustive.


A false dichotomy in biology would be to call all things vertebrate or invertebrate. The correct dichotomy would be to say that all things are either animate or inanimate .



The right firm of your dichotomy would be to describe all believers are either cessationist or continuist.


Quote


If I can be permitted an overgeneralization, the problem with charismatics is that they believe that God not only can heal, but that he must heal. God thus becomes an instrument, wielded by the almighty Christian. That is one reason why, historically, charismata has been a movement among Arminians. At the same time, the problem with non-charismatics is that although they claim that God can heal, they act as if he won't. I don't really think they believe in God's ability--they don't really believe that God can heal. Thus, the problem with charismatics is a denial of God's sovereignty; the problem with non-charismatics is a denial of God's ability or goodness or both.



https://bible.org/article/uneasy-conscience-non-charismatic-evangelical
 
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Biblicist

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Okay, Wilipedia says
Continuationism is a Christian theological belief that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have continued to this present age, specifically those sometimes called "sign gifts" such as tongues and prophecy. Continuationism is the opposite of Cessationism.​
If you look at the opening paragraph, this has set the tone for the entire article where Continuists are simply the opposite to those who are cessationist.

You may have noticed that I often describe Continuist scholars and commentators in three ways, either as Pentecostals, charismatics or those who are deemed to be "open-but-cautious".

The first being Pentecostal (where there are both classic and non-classic Pentecostals), the second being charismatic where these scholars belong to either Evangelical, Reformed or Roman Catholic denominations. And since the 80's we have a new and fascinating category which are those scholars who are neither Continuist nor cessationist but where they are deemed to be "open-but-cautious". The two renowned Calvinist scholars D.A. Carson and Anthony C. Thiselton are two good examples of those who are deemed to be "open-but-cautious". It's one of those curiosities that D.A. Carson, who is neither a Continuist nor a cessationist, back in the 80's was one of the major forces that allowed many Reformed theologians to embrace the Full Gospel, either as charismatics or being those who were "open-but-cautious".

Even though the average person would be unclear with how they are supposed to use the terms Pentecostal and charismatic, at least this new third descriptor provides a hint that they are neither Pentecostal or charismatic.

For what its worth (and it may only serve to further cloud the issue), Pentecostal scholars and commentators will generally refer to non-Pentecostal and non-charismatic scholars as being either Evangelical or Reformed, where by convention it implies that they are non-Continuist. With the Evangelical scholars, most of these will be Arminian so the non-continuist label now applies to those who are both Reformed and Arminian.

So as you can now probably realise, the only application of a Continuist is to those who are not cessationists and to add in a further complication, some of those who may in practice be cessationist, when it comes to their theology, they can be Continuist and on the occassion they can sound more Pentecostal than do some Pentecostal commentators.

The only option that you probably have is to refer to scholars such as Carson and Thiselton as being "open-but-cautious" as they are neither cessationists or in the full sense of being Continuists; but who knows, both of these scholars might even claim to be Continuists in its fullest sense, but I am not aware that they have done so at this stage - but I could be wrong.

Signing off.
 
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If you look at the opening paragraph, this has set the tone for the entire article where Continuists are simply the opposite to those who are cessationist.
Yes, that is true. Yet Pentecostals call themselves Pentecostal and Charismatics call themselves Charismatic. So why not let the Calvinist-Continuationists use Continuationist since it distinguishes them Calvinist-Cessationists and it is a name not in use by any coherent group as far as Charismatic style theology goes.

Can we move on now and return to the thread's topic?
 
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Gregory Thompson

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In Charismatic and Pentecostal circles the predominant theology is a kind of holiness Arminianism with a good smattering of Word Of Faith mixed in but not a lot of Calvinism. And in continuationist circles Calvinism is the predominant theology. It seems that men like Wayne Grudem and John Piper (who are continuationists) represent a theology and a philosophy that is on the fringes of Charismatic and Pentecostal beliefs. So even though they accept continuation of spiritual gifts like those in First Corinthians chapters 12 and 14 they believe that there is something essentially different about prophecy as it described in Deuteronomy 18 and what happens in current Charismatic meetings. Their fringe status leads me to think that their views may be a dead branch of the mighty movement of Charismatic & Pentecostal religion.

John Piper and Wayne Grudem were names introduced to me in more "Baptist" circles, I'm not sure what they have to do with the Pentecostal side of that particular continuum. I know it's tempting to just call it Bapticostalism, but there are distinct differences between the two. It's kind of like when I was a Baptist and thought Orthodox was just another form of Catholicism just in another country, I was wrong, but learning takes time.
 
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