Smile, God doesn't Love everyone -- the Bible says so!

[Eph4:26]

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Contrary to popular opinion, the Bible doesn't support the notion that God love is unconditional. [/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]Also, [/FONT]popular opinion has ambiguously combined love with saved -- that to is in error. [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]
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I might as well say it right here in Post #1:

[/FONT]John 3:16 is not a freewill 'get out of jail' card that can be played to guarentee universal salvation for everyone that ever lived. Pardon the brevity of what I'm about to say for the moment, the context of John 3:16 is 'Look to Jesus for eternal life'!

NOT . . . . Jesus loves me, so I get to go to heaven when I die

 

[mirrorrorrim]

Sorry to disagree, but have you ever read 1 John?

"7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another."
(Chapter 4)

It sound to me that He does love everyone. Of course, just because He loves us doesn't mean there still aren't conditions He places on us receiving the fulness of the Atonement. But that's not because He doesn't love us. That's my belief, anyway.

Again, sorry to disagree.

 

[Eph4:26]

mirrorrorrim, thank you for your thoughtful reply. No disagreement perceived in your reply.

I simply would like to point out that the pronoun 'us' is a possessive pronoun and shouldn't be interpreted as to mean 'everyone'.

I believe that a fuller picture of the meaning of the whom God love's can be viewed when you include 2 John 6:

And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.

 

[Rescued One]

Sorry to disagree, but have you ever read 1 John?

"7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another."
(Chapter 4)

It sound to me that He does love everyone. Of course, just because He loves us doesn't mean there still aren't conditions He places on us receiving the fulness of the Atonement. But that's not because He doesn't love us. That's my belief, anyway.

Again, sorry to disagree.

Is God willing to change every man's will so that everyone will live with Him eternally? Will God cause every man to suffer even as Christ for sins not repented of in this life? So after they've suffered for those sins, will He take them to His home or will some remain on the outside because they don't possess the key to His house?

It seems that everyone defines love in different ways.

 

[angelmom01]

Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
​

It's not for lack of love that the wicked die.

Jesus died for 'us' (that would 'everyone' ) while we were yet sinners.

1Jn 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.​

 

[Jpark]

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Contrary to popular opinion, the Bible doesn't support the notion that God love is unconditional. [/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]Also, [/FONT]popular opinion has ambiguously combined love with saved -- that to is in error. [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]
I might as well say it right here in Post #1:

[/FONT]John 3:16 is not a freewill 'get out of jail' card that can be played to guarentee universal salvation for everyone that ever lived. Pardon the brevity of what I'm about to say for the moment, the context of John 3:16 is 'Look to Jesus for eternal life'!

NOT . . . . Jesus loves me, so I get to go to heaven when I die

I'm not going to bother posting any Scripture to refute your argument. Evidently you believe that God loves everyone since you distinguish between love and salvation. Rather, your post is an attack on or argument against universal salvation.

And I agree. Not everyone will see salvation.

The unbelieving ones that actually do go to heaven are the ones who had a clean heart.

It's better to say God looks at the heart (1 Samuel 16:7).

Edit:

I would like to add to this.

John 15:13-14 "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. "You are My friends if you do what I command you.

Yes, God died for the world and it's population, loving the world and it's population, but He has greater love for the ones that obey Him. Obedience is more pleasing to Him than sacrifice.

1 Samuel 15:22 Samuel said," Has the LORD as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrificesAs in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,And to heed than the fat of rams.

 

[Eph4:26]

. . . . your post is an attack on or argument against universal salvation.

Thank you for allowing me to clarify. I do believe in universal salvation. By that I mean, before Jesus, the Holy Spirit was only given to the Jews. After His resurection, the Holy Spirit was extended to a predestination elect few gentiles from around the world.

 

[Eph4:26]

. . . it's not good to say only Christians will go to heaven.

Seeing how this is a Christian forum, I feel compelled to object to this statement.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Matt 7:14
But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it.

'the way' is a definitive article. By that I mean, Jesus is the only way. Few, not many will seek eternal life.

 

[A New Dawn]

Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
​

It's not for lack of love that the wicked die.

Jesus died for 'us' (that would 'everyone' ) while we were yet sinners.

1Jn 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.​

How are you defining love, though? There are like 7 or 9 different words that mean love used in the Bible. I do not believe that the love God has for the unbeliever is the same love he has for the believer, and that is why the "us" and "our" are so important in 1 John 4:10.

Christ, in John 15:9, says: If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

If Christ's feelings for all were equal, I believe all would be saved, but instead, He put his affections on some and those he saves. The rest he loves as any creator loves his creation, but not with the same love as the ones he made his sons and daughters.

 

[Evergreen48]

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Contrary to popular opinion, the Bible doesn't support the notion that God love is unconditional. [/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]Also, [/FONT]popular opinion has ambiguously combined love with saved -- that to is in error. [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]
I might as well say it right here in Post #1:

[/FONT]John 3:16 is not a freewill 'get out of jail' card that can be played to guarentee universal salvation for everyone that ever lived. Pardon the brevity of what I'm about to say for the moment, the context of John 3:16 is 'Look to Jesus for eternal life'!

NOT . . . . Jesus loves me, so I get to go to heaven when I die

There are several 'worlds' mentioned in the N T scriptures. How can one who knows the Greek language or even one who has a Greek dictionary not understand that many, if not most of the time when we see the word 'world' in the New Testament it refers to nothing more than the polity of the Jews. This people was the world that He began to create and to lay the foundation for, (Eph. 1:4) when He called Abraham out of his kinsmen to go into a land which He would show him. The setting of the foundation for this world is addressed in Exodus 19:1-6. This is the 'world' which He so loved that He sent His only begotten Son to keep any of them from perishing if only they would believe in Him. (cf 2 Peter 3:9)

Who of us mortals would know what God's love for anything or anyone would be like? We have a small taste of its intensity by experiencing the love we have for our own children. But that is is just a 'drop in the bucket' compared to the intensity of God's 'love' for those who love and obey Him. (lest I be accused of trying to earn His favour - loving God and doing our best to please Him is not the same thing as was said of those under the law when they thought that all they had to do in order to please God was to obey the letter of the law.)

I don't believe God loves everyone with that same intensity as He does with regard to those who love and obey Him, but He does have compassion on all of His creation. But His compassion and His love are not the same things.

 

[angelmom01]

How are you defining love, though? There are like 7 or 9 different words that mean love used in the Bible. I do not believe that the love God has for the unbeliever is the same love he has for the believer, and that is why the "us" and "our" are so important in 1 John 4:10.

Christ, in John 15:9, says: If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

If Christ's feelings for all were equal, I believe all would be saved, but instead, He put his affections on some and those he saves. The rest he loves as any creator loves his creation, but not with the same love as the ones he made his sons and daughters.

So you believe that God actually is a respecter of persons, then?

God chose only 12 disciples out of all Israel. Does that mean that only those 12 Jews will be saved?

 

[A New Dawn]

So you believe that God actually is a respecter of persons, then?

God chose only 12 disciples out of all Israel. Does that mean that only those 12 Jews will be saved?

I am not going to argue the ridiculous. People are called "the elect" and "chosen" for a reason. God called people from every tongue and tribe, and the Jews are part of every tongue and tribe. In fact, they were the original "chosen".

And actually, God's choosing on the matter isn't based, as far as we can see, on traits that the people he has chosen have. If they did, then he would be a respecter of persons (and it would also make salvation works-based).

 

[brinny]

This is true. God laughs at the wicked...those who mock Him and oppress His children. It is written that when their destruction comes, it will be sudden, and with no remedy, and no one to help, and He will laugh.

God is holy. He does not smile on those who embrace wickedness and darkness. His long-suffering is for his children only. And His children WILL hear and heed His call, His Spirit woo-ing their hearts and minds.

And just as it was in the days of Noah, it is now. After His children are gathered, THEN destruction will come, AFTER His children are gathered to Him. All others will meet their destruction, just as those outside the ark, met theirs. God Himself will close the door of grace, just as He Himself shut the door to the ark.

 

[angelmom01]

I am not going to argue the ridiculous. People are called "the elect" and "chosen" for a reason. God called people from every tongue and tribe, and the Jews are part of every tongue and tribe. In fact, they were the original "chosen".

And yet from them (the whole) he chose 12 (for His disciples). Sort of like the first-fruits of the harvest, no?

And actually, God's choosing on the matter isn't based, as far as we can see, on traits that the people he has chosen have. If they did, then he would be a respecter of persons (and it would also make salvation works-based).

So how does He "choose" them? Eenie Meenie Miny Moe?

We should hold our breath and hope to "get lucky"?

 

[A New Dawn]

And yet from them (the whole) he chose 12 (for His disciples). Sort of like the first-fruits of the harvest, no?

First fruits is not the whole harvest, though, as your previous post seemed to indicate.

So how does He "choose" them? Eenie Meenie Miny Moe?

He chooses them according to His good pleasure ("And I hope by thy good pleasure safely to arrive at home" is good theology). Apart from that, we don't know. Do you think we need to know?

We should hold our breath and hope to "get lucky"?

Again, I'm not responding to the ridiculous.

 

[Evergreen48]

And actually, God's choosing on the matter isn't based, as far as we can see, on traits that the people he has chosen have. If they did, then he would be a respecter of persons (and it would also make salvation works-based).

The salvation in view here is not in regard to the end destiny of an individual. The salvation for which God chose some, while not choosing others, was the choosing of certain ones to be 'members' of His church. These were especial people who lived within an especial time frame. And it had nothing to do with their final destiny. Notwithstanding that those whom He chose certainly 'went to heaven', as the saying goes, when their life here was over. They were not chosen to have a home in heaven one day, but were chosen to be conformed to the image of Christ that He might be first born among many brethren. (Romans 8:29) A person's end destiny is the result of a person's 'works' while they are here on this earth. It is is called putting on immortality, which is the salvation that is hoped for at the end.(see 1Cor. 15:53 and following verses.)


Romans 2:1 "Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

 

[Eph4:26]

Evergreen48 . . . I've participated on biblical forums for several years now. I would say 99.9% of the people I have discussions with want to argue against my understanding of Scripture -- in particular me believe that Christmas is pagan. It is a great pleasure reading your posts. Thank you!

 

[A New Dawn]

The salvation in view here is not in regard to the end destiny of an individual. The salvation for which God chose some, while not choosing others, was the choosing of certain ones to be 'members' of His church. These were especial people who lived within an especial time frame. And it had nothing to do with their final destiny. Notwithstanding that those whom He chose certainly 'went to heaven', as the saying goes, when their life here was over. They were not chosen to have a home in heaven one day, but were chosen to be conformed to the image of Christ that He might be first born among many brethren. (Romans 8:29)

Interesting interpretations you've given to some of those passages.

I see in quoting Romans 8:29 you've conveniently left off Romans 8:30, which is a continuation of the passage/sentence. Let me post that for you.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

predestinated --> called --> justified --> glorified

It's all one calling! They were chosen to be conformed to the image of the Son so that they can be glorified! You are trying to make a distinction where there isn't one. So, it's pretty clear that, yes, they are called, chosen, elect (whichever word you want to use) to be saved in eternal heaven. This is speaking directly to their eternal destiny. That is what glorified means. To live with God and share his glory.

A person's end destiny is the result of a person's 'works' while they are here on this earth. It is is called putting on immortality, which is the salvation that is hoped for at the end.(see 1Cor. 15:53 and following verses.)

You have this so terribly backwards.

Salvation comes before good works so that they cannot boast. Someone who is saved is created unto good works. Salvation begets good works just as it begets faith.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[angelmom01]

First fruits is not the whole harvest, though, as your previous post seemed to indicate.

Exactly! And isn't the entire field harvested?

He chooses them according to His good pleasure ("And I hope by thy good pleasure safely to arrive at home" is good theology). Apart from that, we don't know. Do you think we need to know?

Exactly again!! And what is "his good pleasure"? Can it be anything less than the salvation of the whole world if that is what He, in fact, sent Jesus Christ to accomplish?

Again, I'm not responding to the ridiculous.

If it's up to him and He bases salvation on nothing that you know of, even though you say it's based on "His good pleasure" (but don't seem to know what would please Him) then how is it "ridiculous" to boil it all down to "luck"?

If it has NOTHING to do WITH US and anything that WE can or cannot "do" (not even "choose" him, as I can't see how that wouldn't be found in the "works" category just like anything else we could "do") then it's a matter of luck!!

In that scenario, we will either be one of the lucky ones whom He chooses or we will not be.

 

[Eph4:26]

. . . And what is "his good pleasure"? Can it be anything less than the salvation of the whole world if that is what He, in fact, sent Jesus Christ to accomplish?

Although I think your question was rhetorical, I would answer 'yes', The God of the Bible intended for something less than the salvation of every man, woman, and child that ever existed.

If it has NOTHING to do WITH US and anything that WE can or cannot "do" . . . . then it's a matter of luck!!

It's really difficult to read this comment and not feel a sense of strong negative emotions behind it. I hope that is not the case. With respect to luck, I don't view my parents coming together and producing me as an act of free-will on my part. Nor do I think of it as 'luck' that I was raised in my parents home.