Show me ONE instance the bible uses 1000 to describe time literally

[eclipsenow]

I'd love someone to show me 1000 used in the context of time that is actually demonstrably literal? As in - not 'literal because I really want it to be literal to justify my own particular individualistic end-times-table'. But actually, demonstrably literal because the text is screaming out that it is literal.

EVERY instance I can see of 1000 in the bible that describes time is symbolic. It either means a 'large number of years' (like we might say 'a gazillion' years) or even eternity.

Deuteronomy 7:9 - "Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments."
= Is the literal futurist really bold enough to insist God is only faithful for a thousand generations? A generation was 40 years - so in 40,000 years God is unfaithful!!!???

Psalms 84:10 - "Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked."
= Is one day at church better than 1000 days aka 2.7 years, or is this a qualitative assessment of where it is better to DWELL for a long time?

Psalm 105:8 - "He remembers his covenant FOREVER, the promise he made, for a THOUSAND generations"
= Well, which is it? Forever, or a thousand generations / 40,000 years?

So here are 3 powerful verses that show a trend.

Where's the counter example?

 

[DavidPT]

I'd love someone to show me 1000 used in the context of time that is actually demonstrably literal? As in - not 'literal because I really want it to be literal to justify my own particular individualistic end-times-table'. But actually, demonstrably literal because the text is screaming out that it is literal.

EVERY instance I can see of 1000 in the bible that describes time is symbolic. It either means a 'large number of years' (like we might say 'a gazillion' years) or even eternity.

Deuteronomy 7:9 - "Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments."
= Is the literal futurist really bold enough to insist God is only faithful for a thousand generations? A generation was 40 years - so in 40,000 years God is unfaithful!!!???

Psalms 84:10 - "Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked."
= Is one day at church better than 1000 days aka 2.7 years, or is this a qualitative assessment of where it is better to DWELL for a long time?

Psalm 105:8 - "He remembers his covenant FOREVER, the promise he made, for a THOUSAND generations"
= Well, which is it? Forever, or a thousand generations / 40,000 years?

So here are 3 powerful verses that show a trend.

Where's the counter example?

Psalms 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.



This verse proves a literal thousand years is being meant here. Look what it says here---when it is past. If from God's perspective, a thousand years can mean a million years, a billion years, a gazillion years, how can it ever get to the point that it can be considered as past? If it can mean a gazillion years, that should mean that it can also mean a trillion zillion gazillion years, so once again, how does it ever get to the point that God considers it as past? Does that mean when it is past, and let's say that is 1 gazillion years later, that a thousand years isn't timeless to God after all, it is only 1 gazillion years to Him? What then? He waits for another gazillion years to be past? What did He do before He created time, then? How could there have been a thousand years in any sense before the creation of time? How can a thousand years not be determined via 24 hour days?

The point I'm trying to make here, it only stands to reason, that for anything to be past at some point, this obviously implies that this period of time involves a certain amount of time, not an endless amount of time instead, since it is impossible for an endless amount of time to be past at some point.

What some of you need to explain here, thus prove, since these thousand years obviously involve a finite amount of time if at some point they can be considered as having passed, how much time does that involve if not a literal thousand years? Good luck showing and proving that with other Scriptures since there are no other Scriptures that can show and prove that.

 

[ewq1938]

2Pe*3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The point is that a long period of time doesn't seem as long to God as it does to us. To us the fulfillment of various promises seems like it's never going to happen but to God a long time is nothing. That doesn't make the thousand years not exactly a thousand years and a day not a day. This proves a thousand years in this verse is exactly that, a thousand years just as a day is exactly a day. God is not saying 81,000 years is like 700 days etc.

So, the thousand years that Christ and his immortal saints rule over the nations of a rod of iron is exactly what he says, a period of a thousand years.

 

[ewq1938]

1. There are no NT examples of chilioi meaning more or less than exactly a thousand.
2. It still means exactly a thousand when paired with other numbers.
3. It's uses in the bible are of exactly a thousand every single time it appears.
4. When an unknown amount is used, the word used is G5505 chilias, and it is used twice in a row.
5. G5507 chilioi is never used in this double fashion.
6. The double appearance of G5505 chilias is not found in Revelation 20.

I think this is a strong case that Revelation 20's "thousand years" is exactly a thousand years. There is no evidence in the NT that this is a longer period of time.

I don't find the "Hebrew occasionally uses thousand in a non-literal way" a very good argument.

 

[eclipsenow]

Psalms 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Not at all - this is like Peter's 'day like a gazillion years' verse where we learn that we can be confident that God sees both the end of history, and can zoom in on a particular moment like we are the only person in the world. People like to do the end-times-table "See? One day = 1000 years, so therefore counting from the genealogies.... blah blah and it's only 3.5 years from now!" or whatever.

BUT they forget the other side of the verse - which is 1000 years in a day? A day is a 1000 years to the Lord? What does THAT mean?

It means he has all the time in the world to focus on us when we pray.

The point I'm trying to make here, it only stands to reason,

No - this is not convincing at all.
Try again.
In fact - thank you - I'll add it to my list of non-literal uses of 1000 in time!

 

[eclipsenow]

3. It's uses in the bible are of exactly a thousand every single time it appears.

Oh really?



Psalm 50: "I bring no charges against you concerning your sacrifices or concerning your burnt offerings, which are ever before me. I have no need of a bull from your stall or of goats from your pens, for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills."
= Is the literal futurist really going to argue that God only owns a thousand hills? What about the other million or so on Earth?

Deuteronomy 1:11 - "11 May the Lord, the God of your ancestors, increase you a thousand times and bless you as he has promised!"
= God was *only* going to grow his people a thousand times - from the literal number of people standing before Moses that day? What happened to more than the stars in the sky and grains of sand on a beach?


Deuteronomy 7:9 - "Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments."
= Is the literal futurist really bold enough to insist God is only faithful for a thousand generations? A generation was 40 years - so in 40,000 years God is unfaithful!!!???


Psalm 105:8 - "He remembers his covenant FOREVER, the promise he made, for a THOUSAND generations"
= Well, which is it? Forever, or a thousand generations / 40,000 years?


Psalms 84:10 - "Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked."
= Is one day at church better than 1000 days aka 2.7 years, or is this a qualitative assessment of where it is better to DWELL for a long time?

Psalm 91:7 - "A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you."
= Is it a thousand or ten-thousand? Is it a gazillion or ten gazillion?


Isaiah 60:22 - "The least of you will become a thousand, the smallest a mighty nation."
= You mean there are limits on God's kingdom - it will ONLY grow 1000 times in size from Isaiah's lifetime?

Judges 15:16 - "Then Samson said, “With a donkey’s jawbone I have made donkeys of them. With a donkey’s jawbone I have killed a thousand men.”
I love this one - as I've been a soldier. The image of a Sampson having a bookkeeper counting his kills is just hilarious. "997, 998, 999, 1000 - that's it Sampson! You're done for the day! Stand down Sampson - I'm writing this down!"


Job 9:3 - "Though they wished to dispute with him, they could not answer him one time out of a thousand."
Could Job's 'friends' actually answer his suffering 1 time in a thousand, or is the emphasis of this story that they had NO answers - only God had the authority to answer Job (and decided not to tell Job the real reason anyway. Job was just to trust God anyway, without an answer!)

You can see from the above why I chuckle a bit when futurists insist the 1000 in the most symbolic book in the bible is 'literal' - an actual number. That's just absurd.

 

[ewq1938]

Oh really?

Yes. None of those verses has the Greek word chilioi.

 

[eclipsenow]

2Pe*3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The point is that a long period of time doesn't seem as long to God as it does to us.

I agree that's the point - but it only makes this verse more likely to be symbolic, not literal.

 

[eclipsenow]

Yes. None of those verses has the Greek word chilioi.

But you said THE BIBLE - not the New Testament.
The Jews speaking in Greek still understood Old Testament concepts and had their culture around many important symbols from the OT - including speaking Hebrew in the synagogues on the Sabbath. They knew how the Old Testament used 1000!

Just because the Greek word means 1000 doesn't mean they had to use it literally. That's circular, based on your own assumption.

 

[ewq1938]

I agree that's the point - but it only makes this verse more likely to be symbolic, not literal.

Nope. God is using two periods of time in the verse. One is exactly a thousand years and the other is exactly one day. The same thing is found in the verse David posted.

The better question would be, "Does the bible have a single verse where G5507 chilioi does not means exactly a thousand?" This would be anywhere in the NT except the disputed appearance in Revelation 20.

The answer is no. It always means exactly a thousand of something whether years or other things.

 

[ewq1938]

But you said THE BIBLE - not the New Testament.

Yes, G5507 chilioi in the bible. I did not say "thousand" in Hebrew.

 

[ewq1938]

Just because the Greek word means 1000 doesn't mean they had to use it literally. That's circular, based on your own assumption.

No, it's based on Greek grammar and how it is used by the Holy Spirit in the NT.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Look. The 1,000 year reign of Christ mentioned in Revelation is 1,000 literal years. There is no indication in the context it is a metaphor. Some folks simply do not like this truth because they simply don't like it for their own personal reasons. It's the same with Genesis. They don't like God creating things in six literal days because they want to respect secular Science and this world.

 

[eclipsenow]

Nope. God is using two periods of time in the verse. One is exactly a thousand years and the other is exactly one day. The same thing is found in the verse David posted.

The better question would be, "Does the bible have a single verse where G5507 chilioi does not means exactly a thousand?" This would be anywhere in the NT except the disputed appearance in Revelation 20.

The answer is no. It always means exactly a thousand of something whether years or other things.

Just saying nope and reasserting your position doesn't undo the fact that these are Hebrews with a long history of writing apocalyptic symbolism 200BC to about 200AD.
Their symbolic uses of 1000 go back centuries before that as well.
What you are trying to do is establish they are no longer Hebrews and do not understand their Old Testaments.

 

[ewq1938]

Just saying nope and reasserting your position doesn't undo the fact that these are Hebrews with a long history of writing apocalyptic symbolism 200BC to about 200AD.

You are avoiding the fact that God uses an exact number of years and an exact use of one day in the verse. It is impossible to change those numbers into more and have a correct exegesis of the verse.

 

[DavidPT]

Not at all - this is like Peter's 'day like a gazillion years' verse where we learn that we can be confident that God sees both the end of history, and can zoom in on a particular moment like we are the only person in the world. People like to do the end-times-table "See? One day = 1000 years, so therefore counting from the genealogies.... blah blah and it's only 3.5 years from now!" or whatever.

BUT they forget the other side of the verse - which is 1000 years in a day? A day is a 1000 years to the Lord? What does THAT mean?

It means he has all the time in the world to focus on us when we pray.


No - this is not convincing at all.
Try again.
In fact - thank you - I'll add it to my list of non-literal uses of 1000 in time!

I don't think you are fully grasping what I'm arguing. The text says a thousand years in His sight are but as yesterday when it is past. If we don't want the thousand years to mean a literal thousand years, how much time do you propose we should make them mean? They have to mean a certain amount of time in order to have passed at some point, don't you think?. Why would anyone argue with that logic?

Then we have to consider that this present earth age, meaning from the time time began until the time it ends, it's never going to involve a gazillion years no matter how you look at it. Do you think there was such a thing as a thousand years before the beginning recorded in Genesis 1:1? Do you think that there will be such a thing as a thousand years after the time of the great white throne judgment? Do you think that from the beginning to the end, that this involves gazillions of years?


Real simple question----the text informs us that when something has come and gone, is past, that is but as yesterday to God when it does that. The text informs us that it is a literal thousand years that do this. If one then flat out disagrees with the text, this means they should be able to tell us precisely how much literal time has come and gone when it is but as yesterday to God when it is past, thus the simple question I was referring to. Is one going to argue that sometimes to God a thousand years are meaning a literal million years, other times it is meaning a literal gazillion years, etc, IOW, God doesn't remain consistent concerning it?

 

[eclipsenow]

You are avoiding the fact that God uses an exact number of years and an exact use of one day in the verse. It is impossible to change those numbers into more and have a correct exegesis of the verse.

I'm not avoiding anything, but have already explained. But I'll go further.

Futurists grab 2 Peter 3:8 as some kind of Rosetta stone or Enigma machine that then lets them install their end-times-tables randomly over any parts of the bible that refer to days. It’s their excuse to justify their futurist presuppositions and charts. But they ignore the other part of the message. If a day is like a 1000 years, when do futurists turn around and do the other equation and make 1000 years like a day? When do they take each day and multiply it by 1000? It's now 2020 which is about 737,300 days. Multiplied by 1000 would equal 737.3 MILLION heavenly years! Um, what to do with that? Futurists just ignore it.

Apparently 2 Peter 3 can only be read their way, and they flip around and include this bit and ignore that bit and draw up a few lines on their crazy-wall and tada! It's all happening in the next 7 years. Every time. Because apparently if Revelation isn't a timetable about us - then it's boring.

But this verse is vastly more pastoral. It's not a dry code that is irrelevant to Peter's generation. It's a verse of comfort about how important we are to God! It shows us a God that can both view the overarching grand progress of history - all gazillion years of it - down to zoom in and study each day like he had the whole of eternity to concentrate on it! In other words, when we pray, we do not need to worry that God is 'too busy' to hear us. He can concentrate on my individual prayer as if I was the only person in the whole world. How am I to live in the end times? I'm to live a holy life, because rather than sitting around constructing end-times-tables all day every day, the Lord will return like a thief! (2 Peter 3:10). The ultimate irony is that the very chapter futurists want to turn into some kind of code to decipher the Enigma machine reasserts that we *cannot* know when the Lord will return! Check it out:-

2 Peter 3:8 - further on.

"11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells."

We are to work, and live constructive and godly lives. Not sit around decoding what day = 1000 years might mean in some arbitrary timetable irrelevant to Peter's generation!

 

[ewq1938]

I'm not avoiding anything

How many days did God speak about in the verse? How many years did He speak about? The answer is 1 and 1000.

Amillennialism tries it's best to blur these facts so numbers don't mean what they are supposed to mean. That's a red flag in the exegesis world. It's not like Premillennialism denies there are some symbolic uses of a thousand in Hebrew. Amillennialism needs to step up and admit G5507 chilioi is not used symbolically.

 

[AV1611VET]

I'd love someone to show me 1000 used in the context of time that is actually demonstrably literal?

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

 

[eclipsenow]

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Yep. That's a verse with 1000 in it.
But - like the whole apocalyptic genre (200BC to 200AD) - UTTERLY symbolic.