Seeking God with all your heart?

[LittleLion]

Jer 29:11-13: For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
12 Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. 13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.


How is a person to know that they indeed are seeking God with all their heart?

There could always be subconscious motives at work in a person that said person is not aware of. So even if they think they are seeking God, this, in effect, is not so, because of those subconscious motives.


So how is a person to determine whether they are indeed seeking God with all their heart?


It is obvious that self-observation will not do, as it is guided by the person's wishes and fears, and thus gives a skewed image of the person.
Believing other people comes with the same risks -- they present their skewed images of said person.

 

[jnhofzinser]

[BIBLE]Jer 29:11-13: For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
12 Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. 13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.[/BIBLE]

How is a person to know that they indeed are seeking God with all their heart?

Perhaps they do not need to know; perhaps it is sufficient that God knows.

There could always be subconscious motives at work in a person that said person is not aware of. So even if they think they are seeking God, this, in effect, is not so, because of those subconscious motives.

Very true. This reminds me of a story from Mike Yaconelli's "Messy Sprituality":

"Dr. Lorraine Monroe taught high school students in Harlem for many years. In her advanced English class one year sat a very bright student who, until this particular year had shown great promise. This year his grades suddenly nose-dived, and he was obviously underperforming. Dr, Monroe met with the boy, challenged him, threatened him, pleaded with him, and counseled him. She tried everything, but he continued to float just above the fail line at about 70 percent. At the end of the school year, the young man barely passed, another casualty of the urban jungle.
"Ten years later, Dr. Monroe was walking to work one morning when a well-dressed young man approached her.
"'Do you remember me?' he asked.
"'Of course I do,' Dr. Monroe replied. 'You were in my advanced English class many years ago. I remember you because you had so much talent and you wasted it in my class.'
"'I know, Dr. Monroe. I knew you believed in me, even though you were disappointed in my performance. I've always hoped I'd run into you again so I could thank you for believing in me, because I am one of the editorial writers for Time magazine noe, and I owe much of my success to you. You see, Dr. Monroe, my senior year was a difficult year for my family. My father was in prison, my mother was a prostitute, my older brother was selling drugs in the projects, and I was left to care for my younger sister and brother. Dr. Monroe, 70 percent was 100 percent of all I could give you!'"

The good news is that God does not require any more than he knows we have, even when that is much less than we know we have.

 

[Bornagain15]

Jer 29:11-13: For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
12 Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. 13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.


How is a person to know that they indeed are seeking God with all their heart?

There could always be subconscious motives at work in a person that said person is not aware of. So even if they think they are seeking God, this, in effect, is not so, because of those subconscious motives.


So how is a person to determine whether they are indeed seeking God with all their heart?


It is obvious that self-observation will not do, as it is guided by the person's wishes and fears, and thus gives a skewed image of the person.
Believing other people comes with the same risks -- they present their skewed images of said person.

I have this same problem myself as a Christian. Sometimes I wonder whether I am truly seeking God or just wanting something for myself. I believe that God makes it clear when someone has a wrong motive, normally, like it was for me, through a rebuke from another Christian.

 

[LegomasterJC]

Jer 29:11-13: For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
12 Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. 13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.


How is a person to know that they indeed are seeking God with all their heart?

There could always be subconscious motives at work in a person that said person is not aware of. So even if they think they are seeking God, this, in effect, is not so, because of those subconscious motives.


So how is a person to determine whether they are indeed seeking God with all their heart?


It is obvious that self-observation will not do, as it is guided by the person's wishes and fears, and thus gives a skewed image of the person.
Believing other people comes with the same risks -- they present their skewed images of said person.

From said scripture... You know you have been seeking with all of your heart when you hear/find God. Or did I not see the real question behind this?
How do you seek with all your heart?... Try the best you can... I'm still struggling with it daily.

 

[LittleLion]

jnhofzinser,

Perhaps they do not need to know; perhaps it is sufficient that God knows.
/.../
The good news is that God does not require any more than he knows we have, even when that is much less than we know we have.

Perhaps is not good enough.
If I want to do something, I need to know what exactly it is that I am to do, and *why*.
For some time a childish faith like "God knows it, it's alright" works. But at some point, it fails to give you support in what you do.


* * *

Bornagain15,

I have this same problem myself as a Christian. Sometimes I wonder whether I am truly seeking God or just wanting something for myself. I believe that God makes it clear when someone has a wrong motive, normally, like it was for me, through a rebuke from another Christian.

But one gets many rebukes!
Which one is the right one?


* * *


LegomasterJC,

From said scripture... You know you have been seeking with all of your heart when you hear/find God.

But how do you know it is indeed God, and not some grand delusion of yours?

 

[jnhofzinser]

If I want to do something, I need to know what exactly it is that I am to do, and *why*.

"nice work, if you can get it." (i.e., life isn't like that, much as you and I would like it to be)

 

[Edial]

"nice work, if you can get it." (i.e., life isn't like that, much as you and I would like it to be)

 

[Edial]

Jer 29:11-13: For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
12 Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. 13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.


How is a person to know that they indeed are seeking God with all their heart?.

This text was addressed to Jeremiah, the prophet of God.
God knew Jeremiah since the beginning - a very, very special relationship.

There could always be subconscious motives at work in a person that said person is not aware of. So even if they think they are seeking God, this, in effect, is not so, because of those subconscious motives.


So how is a person to determine whether they are indeed seeking God with all their heart?


It is obvious that self-observation will not do, as it is guided by the person's wishes and fears, and thus gives a skewed image of the person.
Believing other people comes with the same risks -- they present their skewed images of said person.

The Bible actuially presents that such an approach does not work, since -
RO 3:11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.

So, we are back at the square one - Jesus Christ.

One cannot find God unless he reveals Himself. It is as simple as that.

I covered some other stuff in your other question at this forum.

Good to see you again, the LittleLion.

Ed

 

[eldermike]

Be still. Sounds hokey, but it's our number one issue we must confront. It goes against everything we have learned about success.

If you want to hear from God you have to sit at His feet, as long as it takes. Not that I am the model of perfection, just the opposite, it's not easy.

I know a man that felt God wanted him to go to (country not named) and do something, He had no clue what the something could be. He went anyway. Today there is a shelter for girls who have escaped from the sex trade. It's a school and it's a work of God. This man got one piece at a time, on God's schedule, not His. I only pray that one day I will have that kind of faith.

Knowing God's will is trusting the parts that you know, and being still for the rest.

Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.

2 Chronicles 20:17 Ye shall not need to fight in this battle: set yourselves, stand ye still, and see the salvation of the LORD with you, O Judah and Jerusalem: fear not, nor be dismayed; to morrow go out against them: for the LORD will be with you.

 

[LittleLion]

jnhofzinser,

If I want to do something, I need to know what exactly it is that I am to do, and *why*.

"nice work, if you can get it." (i.e., life isn't like that, much as you and I would like it to be)

I think people are not that stupid and not that incapable though, that they would have to resign themselves to a "I don't really know why I am to do it, but I'll do it anyway".
I think it is possible to act with clarity of motive.


* * *


Edial,

This text was addressed to Jeremiah, the prophet of God.
God knew Jeremiah since the beginning - a very, very special relationship.

God knows everyone, does He not?
The point with Jeremiah was probably that it was Jeremiah who knew God too. So they could easily be intimate.

It is obvious that self-observation will not do, as it is guided by the person's wishes and fears, and thus gives a skewed image of the person.
Believing other people comes with the same risks -- they present their skewed images of said person.

The Bible actuially presents that such an approach does not work, since -
RO 3:11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.

Neither do you?!
And yet you speak of God?

So, we are back at the square one - Jesus Christ.

Why? Why would anyone seek Jesus, if they, per definition per you, do not seek God?

One cannot find God unless he reveals Himself. It is as simple as that.

Have you any idea what a hopeless situation you put in an outsider by telling him that?!
"You must have God do a miracle for you, or you won't believe" -- you've said this much.


I don't mean to argue. But I do have a problem with your apologetics. You present faith in God to be cognitively of the same kind as any belief that science purports.

"First there is evidence, and then based on this evidence, you can build your faith. Of course, you have to trust the evidence."
No, Ed, it doesn't work that way. You are missing the point, or at least you are misrepresenting it.

No evidence is ever enough; all evidence is always ultimately arbitrary.
If one (thinks one) believes in X because of evidence of X, then one doesn't believe in X but in the reasonability of the arguments for X.

Anyone who believes in God and Jesus because they believe the historical evidence for them, is believing in the evidence, not in God and Jesus.

The point of faith is devotion, commitment. And one can commit to God without having "enough compelling evidence of God's existence and works".
God is the only one one can commit to this way.

You, on the other hand, present believing in God as something that could be done as an experiment, as something one can "give it a try", and that, somewhere along the line, God jumps in as an extra and grants the person some faith and mercy. This is like setting out for a tour of hocus-pocus. You present believing in God as much, much more complicated and difficult than I believe it is.
I see now that the greatest part of my troubles with God have to do with man's "wisdom" about God, not with knowing and obeying God per se.



I know, I am in a strange situation where I am guiding believers in what they will tell me, and have them somehow steer away from the hermeneutic and general cognitive falsehoods they are (unwittingly) spreading.


* * *


eldermike,

Be still. Sounds hokey, but it's our number one issue we must confront. It goes against everything we have learned about success.

Yes. Exactly.

If you want to hear from God you have to sit at His feet, as long as it takes.

I wonder why then are outsiders told to seek, do something, dig through "evidence" ...

 

[ChristianDude777]

Jer 29:11-13: For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
12 Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. 13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.


How is a person to know that they indeed are seeking God with all their heart?

There could always be subconscious motives at work in a person that said person is not aware of. So even if they think they are seeking God, this, in effect, is not so, because of those subconscious motives.


So how is a person to determine whether they are indeed seeking God with all their heart?

Hi Lion,

GREAT questions..!!

I'd like to bring up something I'm seeing here that might (hopefully) clarify it some.

There's a difference between seeking God with all your heart and seeking Him from a pure heart. A person can seek God with their whole heart even if they're seeking Him because of fear, or because they want something, or whatever. Seeking God with the goal of someday winning the lottery is a prime example of not seeking Him from a pure heart. In this case, someone would be seeking God for something...not for Himself....all the while seeking with all their heart.

But back to your question. We have to believe what God's Word says about who He is. God is good. God is love. God is light...

If someone seeks God from where they are right now, with as pure and complete of a heart as they can offer, God will see that. He will respond.

Chances are, most of the time if there is some other motive, the person seeking will be aware of it. In that case, they need to honestly identify whatever the motive might be and ask themself if they are seeking God or seeking something else THROUGH or FROM God.

Having said all that, there's nothing wrong with seeking God because one is afraid of dying, or because they're sick, or hurting, or because they want to be saved or comforted or whatever...etc. But the Scriptures tell us that God knows what we need. We're told to seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, and everything else will be added to us.

Anytime we seek God, for whatever reason, we should ideally seek His face first. Seek HIM. He's the source of all good things in the first place. Knowing Him is the key to salvation anyway.

But what I'm trying to say is to start where you're at right now. God knows if you're being as sincere as you can be. And if you are, He'll respond. If there are hidden motrives that you're not aware of, God can easily reveal them to you. You can then examine your motives.

If this doesn't help answer your question, please let me know and I'll try again.

God bless you..

Tim L.

 

[Rafael]

It is a life work to follow after God and learn His specific will for our lives. There is a lot written in scripture telling us to take care of the poor and being a servant to mankind, so if we are truly seeking God, we keep in mind HIs words. The Bible says that each poor person we help or minister to, is just like helping the Lord in person. He knows when a sparrow falls to earth, and even a glass of water given in His name does not go without reward. We are told to take up the cause of those less fortunate than ourselves and given a high calling that, and like you have indicated by your opinion, is not impossible to do these things written about. We are told to have action to our faith and examine ourselves to see whether we are in the faith or not. So, when we look at our own lives and are convicted that we are not living up to the high calling of God, we must ask for forgiveness and strength to do better as we trust God and grow in His grace. He gives us that grace that we my grow in it and bear much fruit in life. We overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony that we are fighting the good fight of faith. Do we ever attain all that is possible? That is left for each of us to judge because if we judge ourselves, we will not be judged by God. But when we are judged by God as Christians, He does not destroy us, but chastises each of us. In the final analysis, it is God that works through us and completes our faith even though we have our part in examining ourselves and then going to Him, submitting ourselves humbly to Him and His power.
We are never saved by our works, but by being patient, God will lead us into the good works He would have us do. When one is young and just starting to study, they should not ever condemn themselves, but just be ready and prayerful about the future, as God will lead each of us into the perfectly fit task each of us is able to accomplish in life. We should not compare ourselves to anybody else in a negative way, but should use the Word of God and the conviction of the Holy Spirit to guide us. It takes time to be able to hear the Lord's voice only because the devil always is quick to yell guilt above God's voice - the still small voice that is as calm as the waters when Jesus spoke to the storm. Trust that God will lead into the good work He has foreordained each of us will do, and that, in part, is as simple as showing love to all the people we know and come into contact while we live - going the extra mile with others, helping them when no one else cares.

1 Cor. 1:31 But if we examine ourselves, we will not be examined by God and judged in this way.
32 But when we are judged and disciplined by the Lord, we will not be condemned with the world.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves to see if your faith is really genuine. Test yourselves. If you cannot tell that Jesus Christ is among you, it means you have failed the test.

Jeremiah 22:16 He defended the cause of the POOR & NEEDY, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to KNOW me! declares the Lord.

I JOHN 3:16-19 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and truth. This then is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence whenever our hearts condemn us.

Mat. 25:31-40 ¶ "But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate them as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left. Then the King will say to those on the right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’ "Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? When did we ever see you sick or in prison, and visit you?’ And the King will tell them, ‘I assure you, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’

Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

EPHESIANS 2:10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to DO GOOD WORKS, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

 

[LittleLion]

ChristianDude777,

I'd like to bring up something I'm seeing here that might (hopefully) clarify it some.

There's a difference between seeking God with all your heart and seeking Him from a pure heart. A person can seek God with their whole heart even if they're seeking Him because of fear, or because they want something, or whatever. Seeking God with the goal of someday winning the lottery is a prime example of not seeking Him from a pure heart. In this case, someone would be seeking God for something...not for Himself....all the while seeking with all their heart.

Basically, "Don't ask God for a pony if a pony is all you want".

But back to your question. We have to believe what God's Word says about who He is. God is good. God is love. God is light...

If someone seeks God from where they are right now, with as pure and complete of a heart as they can offer, God will see that. He will respond.

How do you recognize that it is indeed God who is responding?

Chances are, most of the time if there is some other motive, the person seeking will be aware of it. In that case, they need to honestly identify whatever the motive might be and ask themself if they are seeking God or seeking something else THROUGH or FROM God.

I understand that well. But honesty is something that I believe many people do not have. Not because they had ulterior motives, but simply because we have not been taught to be honest; we have been taught to doubt ourselves. I know that this is true for me.

Having said all that, there's nothing wrong with seeking God because one is afraid of dying, or because they're sick, or hurting, or because they want to be saved or comforted or whatever...etc. But the Scriptures tell us that God knows what we need. We're told to seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, and everything else will be added to us.

So, to continue my pony story ... "Ask God for a pony, if you wish it were God and nobody else who gives it to you".
(This is fun! But it is very serious.)

But what I'm trying to say is to start where you're at right now. God knows if you're being as sincere as you can be. And if you are, He'll respond. If there are hidden motrives that you're not aware of, God can easily reveal them to you. You can then examine your motives.

Hm. As I can now say in retrospect, I used to have the motive to gain man's wisdom in order to move towards God -- as this is what I believed I must do, I was told so by many people. But this weekend, I cracked that hermeneutic fraud!!

If this doesn't help answer your question, please let me know and I'll try again.

It does help, thank you! I apologize if I come across as cold. For so long, I've had to defend myself from all sides, as so much information that I did not understand was coming at me, and I was expected to just soak it in.

Also, I am not asking all these questions just like that, to argue. For one thing, if a person doesn't know what exactly her motive is and yet has to find out what it is, then some questions are inavoidable, and those questions are to be answered with the help of others.
Secondly, I wish to understand what I must understand. I am driven to manipulate (yes) everyone who communicates with me in a manner that I can procure the necessary knowledge from them. This may be a bit tedious for both parties, but it seems it is finally beginning to pay off.

So I thank you warmly and oblige myself for future exchange!

 

[eldermike]

I wonder why then are outsiders told to seek, do something, dig through "evidence" ...

Very useful observation! I think even us Christians, sometimes forget to rely on God. We have read so many books, spent so many hours in His word, we forget the relationship part. We concentrate on making sure people understand that reasonable evidence exists for Christ. We spend out time making sure that evidence is presented so people don't go off looking for God or gods under every rock.

The most important part of seeking or being a Christian is to start a conversation with Jesus, and never end it.

 

[Edial]

Edial ...

Neither do you?!
And yet you speak of God?...

LittleLion, the text that I presented (RO 3:11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God) is addressed to people that do not know God, that is to all the people at one time or another.
Once they become believers they no longer seek him, since he lives in them.
EPH 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

Why? Why would anyone seek Jesus, if they, per definition per you, do not seek God?..

Why are people told not to sin when all sin?

Have you any idea what a hopeless situation you put in an outsider by telling him that?!
"You must have God do a miracle for you, or you won't believe" -- you've said this much.?

You are correct. The situation is hopeless. That is why God revealed himself through the appearance of Jesus Christ.
God is so grand that we cannot comprehend him, so the only way to comprehend him is when he reveals himslf to us on our level.

... and concerning the miracles as a necessity for believing, some need it ...

JN 4:48 "Unless you people see miraculous signs and wonders," Jesus told him, "you will never believe."

... and some do not.

JN 20:29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

I don't mean to argue. But I do have a problem with your apologetics. You present faith in God to be cognitively of the same kind as any belief that science purports.

Not at all.
The problem with many that argue against God has many folds. One of them is that since their Natural side cannot see the "Natural" God it argues into the submission their Supernatural soul that cries out to God (who is Supernatural) in desperation.

The Natural side of a "man" needs Natural evidence, otherwise it develops "blinders". The Natural man has no faith.
That is why God revealed Himself as a Natural man to a Natural man.

One of the purposes of "my apologetics" as you put it, is to remove the Natural blocks that a Natural man develops over the time (knowingly or un-knowingly, willingly or unwillingly).

I present these as Natural evidences that will satisfy a reasonable demands of a Natural mind.
Then the Natural will no longer block the cries of the Supernatural within him (her soul).

However, if the Natural man is not telling the truth concerning the reasons it supresses his own Supernatural soul; if the Natural man is only pretending that he has Natural objection and actually simply does not want God in his life through Jesus Christ, then it is considered to be a "kidnapping of a soul" (not a Biblical term ).
In such a case another measure is taken.

That is why I asked you at least twice in our conversations how important is truth to you.

* Both times you were not clear.*

But currently I am still presuming that your Natural man is seeking evidence to satisfy his questioning urges.
I have accummulated however, more reasons to suggest that you do not need evidence in order to satisfy your questions of the Natural man regardless of what you state.

"First there is evidence, and then based on this evidence, you can build your faith. Of course, you have to trust the evidence."
No, Ed, it doesn't work that way. You are missing the point, or at least you are misrepresenting it.

As I was telling you before (on more than an occasion) is that I answer your questions.
Since you were asking for evidences - I gave them to you.
I also gave you opprtunities to examine the data supporting these evidences for what they are.
(Also, you just made an observation and a conclusion in the same "breath").

No evidence is ever enough; all evidence is always ultimately arbitrary.
If one (thinks one) believes in X because of evidence of X, then one doesn't believe in X but in the reasonability of the arguments for X.

Anyone who believes in God and Jesus because they believe the historical evidence for them, is believing in the evidence, not in God and Jesus.

Since I already answered to this above, also note this - Chtistianity is the ONLY "religion" whose faith is based on evidence, which is overwhelmingly supported as far as the scriptural/historical references are concerned.

The point of faith is devotion, commitment. And one can commit to God without having "enough compelling evidence of God's existence and works".
God is the only one one can commit to this way.

Faith is trust.
(And I realize that I am giving you yet another "opportunity" to argue it down, since I know that you are used to trusting no one).

This is how faith comes -
RO 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

Yet, the LittleLion, you appear to reject the preaching by "arguing it" into the evidence "realm".

Then whenever the "faith" factor is introduced, be it in a form of preaching or Scripture verses, you bounce it back into the Natural realm of evidences and it just "dies" in there in the midst of your confusion.

However, your Supernatural soul is still screaming for the Supernatural God.

It is called pride, the LittleLion.

(Also, I still did not hear any comments on the verses that I sent you, although I asked for it).

You, on the other hand, present believing in God as something that could be done as an experiment, as something one can "give it a try", and that, somewhere along the line, God jumps in as an extra and grants the person some faith and mercy. This is like setting out for a tour of hocus-pocus.

No, I do not present that. You might conclude that, but your conclusion is probably based on the posts of others also.
The salvation is never to be taken as an "experiment", since you cannot go back.
Salvation is when you decide to give your entire self (together with ALL the problems) to Jesus Christ (God) and trust Him to do whatever he wishes to and to know that he will be loving while doing that.

You present believing in God as much, much more complicated and difficult than I believe it is.

You see, we went the whole cycle and we're back at the square one again.
Tell me, what is so complicated about this?

RO 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

And do you remember what you said in another thread when I told you to GET UP, CALL OR SEE A BORN-AGAIN BELIEVER, ASK HOW TO BE SAVED.

Now, how complicated is it?

However, if that is still not the way that you wish to be saved, then there is no other way, according to Jesus Christ.

JN 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

I see now that the greatest part of my troubles with God have to do with man's "wisdom" about God, not with knowing and obeying God per se..

LittleLion, you once again made an observation and a conclusion in one "breath".

There are 2 wisdoms that the Bible is telking about, the wisdom of this world and the wisdom from heaven.

Here is a portion of a chapter -
1CO 2:6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:

"No eye has seen,

no ear has heard,

no mind has conceived

what God has prepared for those who love him" --

1CO 2:10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:

1CO 2:16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

I know, I am in a strange situation where I am guiding believers in what they will tell me, and have them somehow steer away from the hermeneutic and general cognitive falsehoods they are (unwittingly) spreading.

LittleLion, once again you are observing and concluding in one breath.

1. The reason that the believers are relating to you is because they know significantly more concerning the spiritual matters than you do and they care about you. They are Supernaturally told that you have a Supernatural need. They have no alterior motive.
2. I told you once that you have a great mind. But what I did not tell you (and there was no need to at the time) is that you do not have and do not know what the "wisdom from heaven" is.
Wisdom from heaven is when a Supernaturally "born-again" uneducated old lady can understand the Bible better than a Natural PhD.

To change the conversation on a bit more personal level, this last paragraph kind of stunned me, to tell you the truth. I do not know how to address your conclusion.
Woul you please support your statement that I am spreading the hermeneutic and general cognitice falsehoods.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[LittleLion]

Ed,

LittleLion, the text that I presented (RO 3:11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God) is addressed to people that do not know God, that is to all the people at one time or another.

You cut it out of context, just to make your point. But if verses are presented that way, then anything goes.

Have you any idea what a hopeless situation you put in an outsider by telling him that?!
"You must have God do a miracle for you, or you won't believe" -- you've said this much.

You are correct. The situation is hopeless. That is why God revealed himself through the appearance of Jesus Christ.

You are missing the point of what I am saying.

You said:

One cannot find God unless he reveals Himself. It is as simple as that.

But this entails that God either makes a miracle for a particular person so as to convince them of Himself, or the person must already believe that God has revealed Himself before.

The situation is hopeless inasmuch as one is FIRST EXPECTED TO BELIEVE THAT GOD HAS REVEALED HIMSELF -- EVEN BEFORE ONE CAN BELIEVE THAT GOD HAS REVEALED HIMSELF.
This is why the situation is hopeless.

God is so grand that we cannot comprehend him, so the only way to comprehend him is when he reveals himslf to us on our level.

Yes, but one must first believe that this happens. Which brings an outsider back to the beginning, with nothing to start with. Nothing.

... and concerning the miracles as a necessity for believing, some need it ...

JN 4:48 "Unless you people see miraculous signs and wonders," Jesus told him, "you will never believe."

... and some do not.

JN 20:29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Again, it all depends on whether one accepts the Bible to be accurate and authoritative.

Not at all.
The problem with many that argue against God has many folds. One of them is that since their Natural side cannot see the "Natural" God it argues into the submission their Supernatural soul that cries out to God (who is Supernatural) in desperation.

The Natural side of a "man" needs Natural evidence, otherwise it develops "blinders". The Natural man has no faith.

I think you do not understand outsiders.
All this elaborate manifold aplogetics, it mostly just confuses.

That is why God revealed Himself as a Natural man to a Natural man.

Only if one believes the Bible to be true first.

One of the purposes of "my apologetics" as you put it, is to remove the Natural blocks that a Natural man develops over the time (knowingly or un-knowingly, willingly or unwillingly).

I present these as Natural evidences that will satisfy a reasonable demands of a Natural mind.
Then the Natural will no longer block the cries of the Supernatural within him (her soul).

However, if the Natural man is not telling the truth concerning the reasons it supresses his own Supernatural soul; if the Natural man is only pretending that he has Natural objection and actually simply does not want God in his life through Jesus Christ, then it is considered to be a "kidnapping of a soul" (not a Biblical term ).
In such a case another measure is taken.

You have a point here.

That is why I asked you at least twice in our conversations how important is truth to you.

* Both times you were not clear.*

This is because I don't understand your question, what it entails.
Of course truth is important, but if one sees no way to get to it, then this relativizes the importance of truth.

But currently I am still presuming that your Natural man is seeking evidence to satisfy his questioning urges.

No, I am trying to get away from man's wisdom about God.

As I was telling you before (on more than an occasion) is that I answer your questions.
Since you were asking for evidences - I gave them to you.
I also gave you opprtunities to examine the data supporting these evidences for what they are.

But to take the path of seeking evidence is to embark on an endless journey!
And you were supportive of that.

(Also, you just made an observation and a conclusion in the same "breath").

Is that bad?

Since I already answered to this above, also note this - Chtistianity is the ONLY "religion" whose faith is based on evidence, which is overwhelmingly supported as far as the scriptural/historical references are concerned.

What do you mean with this, what does this imply?

Faith is trust.
(And I realize that I am giving you yet another "opportunity" to argue it down, since I know that you are used to trusting no one).

Sure, it can be said that faith is trust. But in whom or what?

Yet, the LittleLion, you appear to reject the preaching by "arguing it" into the evidence "realm".

Because it is presented to me as evidence.
Put yourself in my shoes: I get several people, form several denominations, telling me what to do, giving me explanations. What am I to do, whom to listen to?

Then whenever the "faith" factor is introduced, be it in a form of preaching or Scripture verses, you bounce it back into the Natural realm of evidences and it just "dies" in there in the midst of your confusion.

Never good enough ...

However, your Supernatural soul is still screaming for the Supernatural God.

Maybe.

It is called pride, the LittleLion.

Or fear. Or misunderstanding. Or not having anyone on my side. Or self-defense. I have nothing to be proud of.

(Also, I still did not hear any comments on the verses that I sent you, although I asked for it).

I have your PM saved, ready to reply. I was downright appalled by the idea that I'd have to study yet another book, this time on something so futile as "historical evidence". Those things never end.

You, on the other hand, present believing in God as something that could be done as an experiment, as something one can "give it a try", and that, somewhere along the line, God jumps in as an extra and grants the person some faith and mercy. This is like setting out for a tour of hocus-pocus.

No, I do not present that. You might conclude that, but your conclusion is probably based on the posts of others also.
The salvation is never to be taken as an "experiment", since you cannot go back.

I didn't say you present salvation as an experiment, but belief in God:
1. Here's "historic evidence" that Jesus lived, died, and was resurrected. This evidence is the Bible and some other historic evidence.
2. You must believe this evidence first.
3. Pray for God to give you the Holy Spirit.

Bah. And nothing happens, of course, as one gets stuck at 2.

Salvation is when you decide to give your entire self (together with ALL the problems) to Jesus Christ (God) and trust Him to do whatever he wishes to and to know that he will be loving while doing that.

And how is one to do this, if one lacks the ability to trust?

You see, we went the whole cycle and we're back at the square one again.
Tell me, what is so complicated about this?

"Historic evidence"! Trust!
You want me to trust historic evidence and build on it, and I tell you no evidence is ever enough.

And do you remember what you said in another thread when I told you to GET UP, CALL OR SEE A BORN-AGAIN BELIEVER, ASK HOW TO BE SAVED.

Now, how complicated is it?

And nothing happens. I have done so before.

However, if that is still not the way that you wish to be saved, then there is no other way, according to Jesus Christ.

I don't believe in salvation. I intellectually understand it, I think, but I don't believe that *I* could or would be saved. Others, yes, but not me.

1. The reason that the believers are relating to you is because they know significantly more concerning the spiritual matters than you do and they care about you. They are Supernaturally told that you have a Supernatural need. They have no alterior motive.

What am I supposed to say here? I suppose I should finally take my leave. What am I doing here?!

2. I told you once that you have a great mind. But what I did not tell you (and there was no need to at the time) is that you do not have and do not know what the "wisdom from heaven" is.

No, I do not know that. But I think I can identify the wisdom of man, and thus, ex negativo, come closer to some other kind of wisdom.

To change the conversation on a bit more personal level, this last paragraph kind of stunned me, to tell you the truth. I do not know how to address your conclusion.
Woul you please support your statement that I am spreading the hermeneutic and general cognitice falsehoods.

The "faith is based on historic evidence" approach.
And then the overall "you must first believe before you can believe at all" -- this is what, in effect, yours and most theistic arguments come down to.

 

[Harlan Norris]

Before I came to Christ, I was searching. It seemed that there was a voice a small voice directing me. Some might say, well you were nuts. The advice from this source was sound, and I began to Intentionally listen for it. Even so I also listened to that other voice and grew some opium poppies. My crop came in and I began to partake of the fruit of my labor. One day I was driving and listening to some political talk drivel, when a voice said out loud. " It started out an experiment, it will become an addiction ". Clear as a bell. I thought what?! I listened to the program carefully, it didn't sound the same, and there was nothing about experiments or addiction therein. I knew on some level that God had spoken,to me, out loud. I threw my poppies out as a result. Later when I was going to be baptised, a woman gave me a postcard with a note of congratulation on it.It also had a reference to Psalm 145:18. It says,The lord is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth. Now on the front of the card was a photo of Poppies. I've kept the card as physical proof that God did in fact speak to me. That he delivered me at a critical time in my search. So listen for that small voice, you will hear it.

 

[ChristianDude777]

Basically, "Don't ask God for a pony if a pony is all you want".

Hi Lion,



If that’s the only reason one would seek God, yes…right on the money.

How do you recognize that it is indeed God who is responding?

This sometimes comes down, very simply, to faith. Sometimes we know for sure something is from God. Usually, our spirits will know deep down.



Sometimes our minds will get in the way and begin questioning it. But deep down, we can usually tell. In the cases we think it is God but we’re just not sure, it might come down to faith. We’ve all been in that exact position at one time or another.



Without fail, God working and speaking in us will always line up with His Word. We might not always feel good about what we do or hear but the purest essence of God in us is in agreement with the Scriptures.



God always leads us toward righteousness.



Sometimes you’ll just know what’s right….



Rarely will you ever be walking along and see a billboard that reads “This is God….” When He first began making changes in me, before I realized they were happening, I didn’t even know He was doing anything yet. I just eventually noticed that there were differences. It was later that I learned those things were supposed to happen. I just had faith….believed.



Whenever we’re not sure, rely on faith. Then, keep seeking until we do know for sure one way or another. In the meantime….rely on faith.

I understand that well. But honesty is something that I believe many people do not have. Not because they had ulterior motives, but simply because we have not been taught to be honest; we have been taught to doubt ourselves. I know that this is true for me.

Well, when the Holy Spirit comes to dwell inside us, when we’re born again, He’ll do things in us and make changes is us. These changes might not be big at first. They might be very subtle as they were in my case. But they were there almost immediately. I didn’t understand what they were immediately but looking back now, I can see where and when they began.



God’s Spirit will take care of many of the questions your seeking answers to.

So, to continue my pony story ... "Ask God for a pony, if you wish it were God and nobody else who gives it to you".

(This is fun! But it is very serious.)

Not only that but more. Asking God for a pony simply because we want a pony, there’s nothing wrong with that in itself.



If we were to ask God for a pony, we get the pony, then forget about God…that would be a bad thing. But if we get the pony, and we still seek God first and foremost because we want to know God, we get to love the pony as it grows into a horse. Of course, then we have to deal with this big animal that we have to feed and clean up after but we still get to keep it.



My point is….it’s fine to ask God for things we want, but we should ideally seek God first for Himself. Our love for and relationship with Him are the main things. He should always be our primary focus….not all the blessings He can give us. They are secondary to our relationship with Him. Getting to know Him. Having Christ developed in us.



Did any of that make sense..??

Hm. As I can now say in retrospect, I used to have the motive to gain man's wisdom in order to move towards God -- as this is what I believed I must do, I was told so by many people. But this weekend, I cracked that hermeneutic fraud!!

This sounds exciting..! Can you share a bit more about this..?

It does help, thank you! I apologize if I come across as cold. For so long, I've had to defend myself from all sides, as so much information that I did not understand was coming at me, and I was expected to just soak it in.

No need to apologize at all. I’ve been there on the other side of the fence. It’s a major thing not to be taken lightly.

Also, I am not asking all these questions just like that, to argue. For one thing, if a person doesn't know what exactly her motive is and yet has to find out what it is, then some questions are inavoidable, and those questions are to be answered with the help of others.

I understand and agree with you. I still have a lot of questions myself. You should see my Pastors after they spend 15 minutes with me. They walk off scratching their heads with this really confused look on their faces.

Secondly, I wish to understand what I must understand. I am driven to manipulate (yes) everyone who communicates with me in a manner that I can procure the necessary knowledge from them. This may be a bit tedious for both parties, but it seems it is finally beginning to pay off.



So I thank you warmly and oblige myself for future exchange!

I’m genuinely glad to see that you’re gaining ground here Lion. This is what makes all the discussions worthwhile. I’ve been PMing a woman who has had a really bad past of serious child abuse from satanic parents for a few months now on here. We’ve actually become very close friends. But she also has many questions that she needs to have answers to. There’s nothing wrong with not understanding everything. Just ask my Pastors..!



God bless you Lion. Keep sharing with us and keep any questions you have coming. Just don’t feel like you have to crack this giant mystery all at once by your own abilities. Don’t get frustrated when you still don’t understand it all. God can meet us right where we are right now….always.



Great posts…



Tim L.

 

[ChristianDude777]

And how is one to do this, if one lacks the ability to trust?

Hey Lion,

I have a question I'd like to ask you but I'm not sure this is the place.

I don't believe in salvation. I intellectually understand it, I think, but I don't believe that *I* could or would be saved. Others, yes, but not me.

I wasn't going to get into your discussion here but this statement kind of spoke a bit loudly. Why would it be that you'd think such a thought about yourself..?

See....God created you, me...everyone. You didn't create you. God did. So it's not like it could be assumed that you were somehow created with any less value than anyone else.

I think what I meant by that was something like this. I know me. I know my screw ups. I know the millions of times I've made them. If I were responsible for my being here...if I were responsible for me being me, I'd have serious doubts if I were able to be saved. I'd forever be questioning..."Well, did I goof that up too..? But since it's God who put me here and made me who I am, I don't have to question that because if He can create this whole universe to run as it does, He can certainly create me without my mess ups getting in the way.

Did that one make any sense..?

What am I supposed to say here? I suppose I should finally take my leave. What am I doing here?!

I think what he meant was that we were once in the place of that need also. But now we've been born again and given the gift of the Holy Spirit which gives us the ability to (hopefully) help you answer some of the questions you have.

(I hope I didn't make that one any worse..)

God bless..

Tim L.

 

[ChristianDude777]

Before I came to Christ, I was searching. It seemed that there was a voice a small voice directing me. Some might say, well you were nuts. The advice from this source was sound, and I began to Intentionally listen for it. Even so I also listened to that other voice and grew some opium poppies. My crop came in and I began to partake of the fruit of my labor. One day I was driving and listening to some political talk drivel, when a voice said out loud. " It started out an experiment, it will become an addiction ". Clear as a bell. I thought what?! I listened to the program carefully, it didn't sound the same, and there was nothing about experiments or addiction therein. I knew on some level that God had spoken,to me, out loud. I threw my poppies out as a result. Later when I was going to be baptised, a woman gave me a postcard with a note of congratulation on it.It also had a reference to Psalm 145:18. It says,The lord is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth. Now on the front of the card was a photo of Poppies. I've kept the card as physical proof that God did in fact speak to me. That he delivered me at a critical time in my search. So listen for that small voice, you will hear it.

Hi Harlan,

This was a really nice post. Thank you for sharing this. Well done...

Tim L.