scripture that supports Purgatory

[truthHurts77]

the roman catholic Church (the Original Church founded by Christ) did not make up Purgatory.

the word Purgatory is not in the written Word of God but Catholics do not just go by the written Word, but by every word that comes from God... and some of His Word comes through HIs Church witout being found in the written scirptures..

so anyhow... the concept of a place of purging IS in scirptre

there is 1 Cor 3:13-

St Mt 18:23 ("until...")

St Mt 12:32 (forgiveness in the age to come)

In Maccabees it speaks of praying for others, that they may be loosed from their sins... these were people who had died in battle

there are others but i can't htink of all of them... maybe i willl think of more by tomorrow

 

[drjean]

Of course not all believe that Maccabees belongs in the canon of the OT and NT, for the very reason (one) that you mention, it doesn't support other documented theology.

Now, the best example we have of such a thing is with the story of the rich man and Lazarus... both in places, separate, after death. Before Christ died and resurrected, no man could be redeemed (until Christ put His sacrificial blood on the alter in heaven, we were not redeemed)...and thus could not enter heaven. Purgatory was considered the place where the to-be-redeemed were held until Christ redeemed them.
Once Christ made His acceptable offering, the veil being rent in half (top to bottom, which was impossible for man or nature to do) and opened the holy of holies to all of us (Jew, Greek without a need for any other priest for mediation) the holding place was no longer necessary. We can now go directly to heaven because of Christ's redeeming blood.

 

[Albion]

To be completely clear about it and accurate, there is NO Bible basis for Purgatory.

Not Purgatory per se. Something sharing a few characteristics of the theoretical Purgatory, maybe. But maybe not, also.

The RCC did indeed make up Purgatory (during the Middle Ages). The first Christians believed that the end of the world would be in their lifetimes, so Purgatory wouldn't have even made sense then, which means that Purgatory isn't true by Tradition, either.

It would be correct to say that there are a few verses that hint vaguely at some of the characteristics that went into the creation of Purgatory, but...

...to say that these general hints at some kind of neither-heaven-nor-hell equals Purgatory is like saying that grass is mentioned in the BIble and so are beaches, so Ireland is a proven Bible teaching because, after all, Ireland has both grass and beaches.

Well, so do plenty of other countries. And there is much more about Ireland that sets it apart from other countries.

 

[PaladinValer]

The idea of Purgatory developed throughout the centuries and matured in the Middle Ages.

I don't oppose the theology that the immediate afterlife is a place of purgation, but I do not agree with some of the specifics of Purgatory as it is believed by the Vatican.

However, since Purgatory is a doctrine and not a dogma in their church, I don't see any real reason for either side to get too jumpy over it.

 

[Rick Otto]

Another, less infallible opinion:
1 Corinthians 3:13
Every man's work shall be made manifest
The doctrine he preaches shall be sooner or later made manifest to himself, and to his hearers; who shall see the inconsistency, irregularity, and deformity of such a building; at first so well laid, then piled up with such excellent materials, and at last covered in with such trifling or incoherent stuff:
for the day shall declare it;
meaning not the day of judgment, though that is often called the day, or that day, and will be attended with fire, and in it all secrets shall be made manifest; but the apostle intends a discovery that will be made of doctrines in this world, before that time comes: wherefore this day rather designs a day of tribulation; as of persecution, which tries men's principles, whether they are solid or not; and of error and heresy, when men are put upon a re-examination of their doctrines, whereby persons and truths that are approved are made manifest; or of some great calamity, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, whereby many wrong notions the Jews yet retained were discovered: but it is best of all to understand this day of the Gospel day, and of the progress of Gospel light, especially in some particular periods of it; as in the primitive times, at the reformation from popery, and the more remarkable Gospel daylight, which will be in the latter times, when the impertinence and inconsistency of many things which now obtain in the ministry will be seen; see ( Ephesians 5:13 ) .
Because it shall be revealed by fire:
not that day, but the man's work, or doctrine: and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is;
by the fire is meant, not the general conflagration of the world, when that, and all that is therein, will be burnt up; much less the fire of purgatory, the "papists" dream of, for the punishment of evil actions; for the apostle is not speaking of the actions of men, good or bad, but of the doctrines of ministers; rather the fire of tribulation and affliction, which, as it is for the trial of the grace of faith, so of the doctrine of faith, whereby it becomes much more precious than of gold that perisheth; or of some fiery dispensation of God's vengeance, as on Jerusalem: though the word of God, which is as fire, seems to be intended; which in some certain times so blazes forth, and will more especially in the latter day, that by the light of it, both ministers and churches will be able to see clearly the bright shining lustre of the gold, silver, and precious stones; and with so much heat, as to burn up the wood, hay, and stubble; when the difference between these things will be most easily discerned.
-John Gill

 

[Rick Otto]

Matthew 12:32
And whosoever speaketh a word against the son of man
By whom is meant, not any man, as Grotius thought, but the Lord Jesus Christ, so often called "the son of man", on account of his human nature, in which he appeared in great meanness and obscurity. Now many might, through ignorance of him, thinking him to be a mere man, and taking up with common fame, speak evil of him, deny him to be the Messiah, reproach him for the meanness of his parentage and education, and for the freedom of his conversation with publicans and sinners; and do many things contrary to his name, as Saul, whilst a Pharisee did, and thought he ought to do; and yet be afterwards convinced of their mistakes, and be brought to a sense and acknowledgment of them, and obtain pardoning grace and mercy, as Saul did, though a blasphemer; and who is an instance of what is here promised,
it shall be forgiven him
through the grace of God, the blood and mediation of Christ, under the application of the blessed Spirit.
But whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost,
in the sense before declared,
it shall not be forgiven him:
not because the Holy Ghost is greater than Christ; or for want of efficacy in the blood of Christ; or because God cannot pardon it; but because such persons wilfully, maliciously, and obstinately oppose the Spirit of God, without whom there can be no application of pardon made; and remain in hardness of heart, are given up to a reprobate mind, and die in impenitence and unbelief, and so there is no forgiveness for them,
neither in this world, nor in the world to come;
that is; they shall never be forgiven, see ( Mark 3:29 ) . The distinction here used, does not refer to a common one among the Jews, of the Jewish state and the times of the Messiah; but to the present state of life, and that which will be after, or upon death: and it does not suppose there may be forgiveness of other sins, though not of this, in the other world; but strikes at a notion the Jews had, that there are some sins, which repentance and the day of atonement expiate in this life; but there are others, which repentance and the day of atonement do not expiate; and these a man's death expiates, or makes atonement for . The form of confession used by sick persons is the following ;

``I confess before thee, O Lord our God, and the God of our fathers, that my cure is in thy hands, and my death is in thy hands; if it be thy good pleasure, heal me with a perfect healing: but if I die, (hxylo yttym aht) , "let my death be for the pardon", forgiveness, and atonement of all the sins, iniquities, and transgressions, which I have sinned, acted perversely in, and transgressed before thee; and give me my portion in paradise, and justify me "in the world to come", which is hidden for the righteous.''
​

But the sin against the Holy Ghost is such, as is not forgiven, neither before, nor at, nor after death, nor by it: all sins that are forgiven, are forgiven in this world, and that perfectly and at once; and all that are forgiven in this world, there will be a manifestation and declaration of the pardon of them in another; but such sins as are not forgiven here, there will be no declaration of the pardon of them hereafter. In short, the sense is, that the sin against the Holy Ghost never has forgiveness; it is not pardoned now, and consequently there will be no declaration of the pardon of it hereafter. The Jews use the phrase in the same sense ; a certain sick man said to his son,

``give me water, and such certain food; but if not, I will not "forgive thee, neither in this world, nor in the world to come".''
​

That is, I will never forgive thee.

 

[Rick Otto]

Matthew 18:23
Therefore is the kingdom of heaven
The Gospel church state, or the church of Christ under the Gospel dispensation, and the methods of God's dealings in it;
likened unto a certain king:
or "a man", "a king", pointing either to Christ, the king Messiah, who is King of kings, and Lord of lords, the King of saints and churches; who, as God, has a natural kingdom of providence, and as man and Mediator, a kingdom of grace; and will have a more visibly glorious one, both in this world and in the other; or rather, the Father of Christ, as appears from the application of the parable, in ( Matthew 18:35 ) , who is the living God, and everlasting King: whose is the kingdom of nature, grace, and glory: which would take account of his servants;
not all mankind, though these are all in a sense his servants, and accountable to him; nor only ministers of the Gospel, who are so in an eminent and peculiar sense, and must give an account to God of their time and talents, and souls committed to them; but all that bear the Christian name, that are professors of religion, that are either really or nominally the subjects and servants of God. These, it is sometimes the will and pleasure of God, to "take account of": not of their persons, or number, but of their conduct and behaviour; which, as it will be more fully done at death, or at judgment, so sometimes is taken in this life: God sometimes calls, and brings, professors of religion to an account, and reckons with them by afflictive dispensations of providence; when he puts them upon reflecting how they have spent their time, made use of their talents and gifts, and have behaved in their families, and in the world, and church; or by dealing roundly with men's consciences, awakening and convincing them of their sins, of omission and commission, which seems to be intended here.</SPAN>

 

[Rick Otto]

I guess no one can claim the RCC (a denimination not founded by Christ) has no imagination.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

the roman catholic Church (the Original Church founded by Christ) did not make up Purgatory.

the word Purgatory is not in the written Word of God but Catholics do not just go by the written Word, but by every word that comes from God... and some of His Word comes through HIs Church witout being found in the written scirptures..

so anyhow... the concept of a place of purging IS in scirptre

there is 1 Cor 3:13-

St Mt 18:23 ("until...")

St Mt 12:32 (forgiveness in the age to come)

In Maccabees it speaks of praying for others, that they may be loosed from their sins... these were people who had died in battle

there are others but i can't htink of all of them... maybe i willl think of more by tomorrow

IMO, this is wonderful confirmation of the point. The Catholic Church invented this. That, PER SE, doesn't make it wrong, of course, but it does seem to confirm the point of that denomination making it up.





.

 

[ebia]

A lot depends on what one means by purgatory.

That which Benedict XVI describes in Spe Salvi is fine, and consistent with what scripture says about refining.

The medieval notions usually described quite the reverse.

 

[PaladinValer]

A lot depends on what one means by purgatory.

That which Benedict XVI describes in Spe Salvi is fine, and consistent with what scripture says about refining.

The medieval notions usually described quite the reverse.

I rather like how ++Benny XVI described it. Thanks for the info on that encyclical.

 

[truthHurts77]

Of course not all believe that Maccabees belongs in the canon of the OT and NT, for the very reason (one) that you mention, it doesn't support other documented theology.

Now, the best example we have of such a thing is with the story of the rich man and Lazarus... both in places, separate, after death. Before Christ died and resurrected, no man could be redeemed (until Christ put His sacrificial blood on the alter in heaven, we were not redeemed)...and thus could not enter heaven. Purgatory was considered the place where the to-be-redeemed were held until Christ redeemed them.
Once Christ made His acceptable offering, the veil being rent in half (top to bottom, which was impossible for man or nature to do) and opened the holy of holies to all of us (Jew, Greek without a need for any other priest for mediation) the holding place was no longer necessary. We can now go directly to heaven because of Christ's redeeming blood.

you speak of what Christ did...

Purgatory is about what WE sinful humans do... and how to get the impurities of our sins washed away so as to be ready for Heaven

we can go directly to Heaven?

sure we can... if we are saints...

are you a saint?

even saints have flaws... attachments to certain sins that must be dealt with... but of course, they get rid of that b4 death, usually, and that is why they are canonized... but Saint just means one is in Heaven... doesn't matter if he was in Purgatory first... Most of us go to Purgatory first... because ... we are human (etc). Padre Pio was in Purgagory for a few hours... and i belive he has been canonized..

anyway...

Purgatory is only logical...

many are not bad enough to be in eternal torment

and not good enough (holy enough) to go directly to Heaven

 

[truthHurts77]

Of course not all believe that Maccabees belongs in the canon of the OT and NT, for the very reason (one) that you mention, it doesn't support other documented theology.

Now, the best example we have of such a thing is with the story of the rich man and Lazarus... both in places, separate, after death. Before Christ died and resurrected, no man could be redeemed (until Christ put His sacrificial blood on the alter in heaven, we were not redeemed)...and thus could not enter heaven. Purgatory was considered the place where the to-be-redeemed were held until Christ redeemed them.
Once Christ made His acceptable offering, the veil being rent in half (top to bottom, which was impossible for man or nature to do) and opened the holy of holies to all of us (Jew, Greek without a need for any other priest for mediation) the holding place was no longer necessary. We can now go directly to heaven because of Christ's redeeming blood.

the Cahtolic Church accepts that book

Luther, excommunicated heretic did not...

whom to believe... whom to believe....

 

[Albion]

the Cahtolic Church accepts that book

Luther, excommunicated heretic did not...

whom to believe... whom to believe....

Luther was the greatest Bible scholar of his day and the opposition was motivated entirely by politics and power, by the desire to squelch anyone asking questions. So...ithe answer logically would be Dr. Luther.

 

[ebia]

Although the Catholic Church does recognise 2 Macc. as deuterocanonical, it's not often cited in current catholic thought on purgatory as though it were scripture describing eternal reality.

Eg Spe Salvi refers to as a document describing 2nd Temple Jewish thought.

 

[ebia]

"... the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation "as through fire". But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ's Passion. At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy. It is clear that we cannot calculate the "duration" of this transforming burning in terms of the chronological measurements of this world. The transforming "moment" of this encounter eludes earthly time-reckoning--it is the heart's time, it is the time of "passage" to communion with God in the Body of Christ[39]. The judgement of God is hope, both because it is justice and because it is grace. If it were merely grace, making all earthly things cease to matter, God would still owe us an answer to the question about justice--the crucial question that we ask of history and of God. If it were merely justice, in the end it could bring only fear to us all. The incarnation of God in Christ has so closely linked the two together--judgement and grace--that justice is firmly established: we all work out our salvation "with fear and trembling" (Phil 2:12). Nevertheless grace allows us all to hope, and to go trustfully to meet the Judge whom we know as our "advocate", or parakletos (cf. 1 Jn 2:1)."

 

[truthHurts77]

Luther was the greatest Bible scholar of his day and the opposition was motivated entirely by politics and power, by the desire to squelch anyone asking questions. So...ithe answer logically would be Dr. Luther.

whatever...

i have studied history

you obviously have not

as Cardinal Newman (convert to Catholicism) said

To be deep into history is to cease being Protestant..

 

[Albion]

whatever...

i have studied history

you obviously have not

As is known by others here, I have a PhD in history. You've "studied it" you say? Tell us more.

 

[truthHurts77]

"... the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation "as through fire". But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God.(cf. 1 Jn 2:1)."

sounds like Purgatory..
why no citation?? who says this?

in any case, the souls in Purgatory are supposed to be present at the Tabernacle where Jesus' tangible Presence is in the Catholic (and only the CAtholic) Churches... I have NOT gotten an "OK" from the official Church to say that, but some book i read, t he author said this and she is very devout and wouldn't say it if it weret true... or it is HIGHLY unlikely she would... In any case, i have been in the Real PResence fairly often and i feel she is correct, that the souls in Purgatory are there.. makes sesne since Hell is below, Heaven is above and Purgatory... well, is somewhere "in between" as it were...

hard to put into words why i belive the souls in P are There @ the Tabernacle w/ me... but i am 99.9% sure they are... not having been there, protestants cannot argue this point w/ me... although i am sure they will just the same... ho hummm....

 

[Publius]

the roman catholic Church (the Original Church founded by Christ)

How did you come to the conclusion tha the Roman Catholic Church was "the Original Church founded by Christ"?

the word Purgatory is not in the written Word of God but Catholics do not just go by the written Word, but by every word that comes from God... and some of His Word comes through HIs Church witout being found in the written scirptures..

How do you know this? Without the objective standard of scripture, how do you know the things the Catholic Church is telling you are really the Word of God? How do you know they're true without the objective standard of scripture to compare them to?

there is 1 Cor 3:13-

How gave you the idea that this passage refers to Purgatory? In reality, it refers to the Bema Seat Judgement and those who stand before this judgement are already saved. Why would they have to have their sins purged? And if this is Purgatory, then where does the passage say anything about sinners expiating their sins?

St Mt 18:23 ("until...")

As with the last passage, how did you come to the conclusion that this passage is about Purgatory? This is the danger we face when we try to derive our doctrine from parables.

Remember, a parable isn't a literal account or a prescriptive passage, but is a story used as a rhetorical device to illustrate a spiritual truth. In this case, in this case, forgiveness.

Please note that you chose to begin the passage in v 23, which begins with the word "therefore". Any time you see the word "therefore", that tells you that the author or speaker is summarizing an important point. The previous verses would have told you what this passage is referring to.

St Mt 12:32 (forgiveness in the age to come)

Again, how do you find Purgatory in this verse?

TruthHurts, when it comes down to it, we both believe in Purgatory. The only difference is that you believe the Roman Catholic teaching that it is up to sinners to purge themselves of their sins, while we believe the purging was done by Christ in His atonement on the cross.

Purgatory is about what WE sinful humans do... and how to get the impurities of our sins washed away so as to be ready for Heaven

But doesn't 1 John 1:7 tell us that it's the blood of Christ that cleanses us from all sin? If His blood has cleansed us from all sin, then what sins are left?

we can go directly to Heaven?

sure we can... if we are saints...

Where does the Bible make that distinction?

are you a saint?

Yes.

even saints have flaws... attachments to certain sins that must be dealt with... but of course, they get rid of that b4 death, usually, and that is why they are canonized... but Saint just means one is in Heaven

So, when Paul called people "saints", he was addressing people in Heaven?

Padre Pio was in Purgagory for a few hours

How do you know? How do you know he's out now?

anyway...

Purgatory is only logical...

many are not bad enough to be in eternal torment

Who does Jesus say is not bad enough to be in eternal torment?

i have studied history

you obviously have not

Is that why you believe that Christ founded a religious body that did not even exist until after His ascension?

i have studied history (secular -in COLLEGE) and there is either NO mention of the Catholic Church at ALL

I find that a little hard to believe, as you simply cannot teach Western Civ without devoting weeks to church history

i have had to teach the instructors myself sometimes.... meaning i have had to correct their so called "knowledge"

And what was your background in history that gave you the ability to do this?

doesn't do to believe everything a professor says...

Should we believe everything you say?