Saved by faith alone; how do you know your faith is saving faith?

[Xeno.of.athens]

Some Christians tell me, as a Catholic, that I am not saved because I allegedly believe that I am saved by faith plus works. They are, of course, wrong since I believe no such thing. Nevertheless, I got to wondering if they say ,"we are saved by faith [alone] apart from works", then how do they know that the kind of faith that they have is genuine 24 caret saving faith?

 

[ozso]

Some Christians tell me, as a Catholic, that I am not saved because I allegedly believe that I am saved by faith plus works. They are, of course, wrong since I believe no such thing. Nevertheless, I got to wondering if they say ,"we are saved by faith [alone] apart from works", then how do they know that the kind of faith that they have is genuine 24 caret saving faith?

I'd say that if one has faith in Christ alone to save them, then they have a solid saving faith. That faith invites the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who guides them towards repentance of sin, obedience, good works though love of God and neighbor.

 

[d taylor]

-
​

Because God has stated and promised belief in Jesus gives a person Eternal Life.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Some Christians tell me, as a Catholic, that I am not saved because I allegedly believe that I am saved by faith plus works. They are, of course, wrong since I believe no such thing. Nevertheless, I got to wondering if they say ,"we are saved by faith [alone] apart from works", then how do they know that the kind of faith that they have is genuine 24 caret saving faith?

There is serious confusion on the subject of faith without works verses faith with works. It is completely unessessary and frankly somewhat anoying because it has led many to stumble.
The fact of the matter is , if you are saved the fruits of His Holy Spirit will be present in one's life. These all happen to be considered " works":
The fruits of His Holy Spirit are listed in Galatians 5:22-23:
* Love
* Joy
* Peace
* Patience
* Kindness
* Goodness
* Faithfulness
* Gentleness
* Self-control

It is not the matter of faith vs works, it is the matter of faith shown by one's works. This is why faith without works is dead! So the true test of faith is works because it is the natural state of a believer who walks with His Holy Spirit daily. It is not added, it is entrenched. Blessings

But someone will say, 'You have faith; I have deeds.' Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds." (James 2:18, NIV)

 

[Rose_bud]

Hi Xeno
Your faith will testify to your "works". Alternatively, your works will demonstrate the faith you have in Christ. He loved God and loved others, expressing this love tangibly.

In my understanding of James epistle, he argues that believing in Jesus doesn't mean neglecting the aspects of the law that emphasize loving your neighbor. This love is more about actions and a godly attitude than mere lip service. Those who have faith in Jesus will practice their faith in tangible ways.

Consequently, if you believe in who God truly is, you will respond to what He says. Furthermore, readers of James epistle would have been reminded of the broader context of the passages he quoted, primarily from Leviticus if I remember correctly, which emphasized holiness to the Lord.

 

[Clare73]

Some Christians tell me, as a Catholic, that I am not saved because I allegedly believe that I am saved by faith plus works. They are, of course, wrong since I believe no such thing. Nevertheless, I got to wondering if they say ,"we are saved by faith [alone] apart from works", then how do they know that the kind of faith that they have is genuine 24 caret saving faith?

True faith obeys, but it is not the obedience of that faith which saves, only the faith itself saves (Ro 3:28).

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

True faith obeys, but it is not the obedience of that faith which saves, only the faith itself saves (Ro 3:28).

"Apart from works of the law" what law do you suppose that is?

 

[Clare73]

"Apart from works of the law" what law do you suppose that is?

All the laws of the Pentateuch.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

All the laws of the Pentateuch.

I see. But not all works, just those of the law, right?

 

[Aaron112]

Some Christians tell me, as a Catholic, that I am not saved because I allegedly believe that I am saved by faith plus works. They are, of course, wrong since I believe no such thing. Nevertheless, I got to wondering if they say ,"we are saved by faith [alone] apart from works", then how do they know that the kind of faith that they have is genuine 24 caret saving faith?

Neither they (most) nor caths "know" - rather hope, whether vainly, not realizing they are lost, or truthfully in Christ Jesus...... uniquely, rarely with integrity.
One distinguishing habit of life for disciples of Jesus (real ones),
is that they talk with Jesus, tell Him everything, and listen to Him, and follow Him, and WILL NOT follow another voice. Only His Voice. He is the Shepherd, and His sheep know His Voice. Religious people do not know His Voice, but follow some other voice - listen to some man or men or doctrines.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Some Christians tell me, as a Catholic, that I am not saved because I allegedly believe that I am saved by faith plus works. They are, of course, wrong since I believe no such thing. Nevertheless, I got to wondering if they say ,"we are saved by faith [alone] apart from works", then how do they know that the kind of faith that they have is genuine 24 caret saving faith?

In the Lutheran tradition what makes saving faith is:

1) It is faith in Christ.
2) It is the gift of God.
3) See the first point.

If we look inward to see if we have "the right faith" we're going to come out empty-handed. For two reasons, because if I'm trying to find something inside myself to assure me that I am saved, then I will discover that inside myself is only pride and/or despair. Pride, when I believe myself worthy before God; despair when I realize just how unworthy I am and desperately seeking to be worthy of God.

The second reason we come out empty-handed is because that is, in a way, what faith is. Faith is empty hands, faith doesn't give something to God--it has nothing to give--rather faith receives from God. Faith is not something good in ourselves which we present to God which earns us salvation; rather faith is having nothing and receiving from God the good, the gifts, and the promises which God gives to us.

Thus saving faith saves, not because it does something; but because it receives something. And this receiving is not by my own strength or power, but is itself God's gift and work--to pry open my closed fist with His overabundance of kindness and grace. This the Holy Spirit does through Word and Sacrament.

How can we have any assurance from God of these things? Because of His promises. We have to look outside of ourselves, to God's Means of Grace: Word and Sacrament. The word we hear in the preaching of the Gospel, the promise attached to our baptism, the promise attached to the Lord's Supper, to God's express forgiveness in Holy Absolution. It is not from within myself, but from outside myself, in the external Word of God, that trusts, and hopes, and clings.

How can I know I belong to Jesus Christ? Baptizatus sum. I am baptized.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

In the Lutheran tradition what makes saving faith is:

1) It is faith in Christ.
2) It is the gift of God.
3) See the first point.

If we look inward to see if we have "the right faith" we're going to come out empty-handed. For two reasons, because if I'm trying to find something inside myself to assure me that I am saved, then I will discover that inside myself is only pride and/or despair. Pride, when I believe myself worthy before God; despair when I realize just how unworthy I am and desperately seeking to be worthy of God.

The second reason we come out empty-handed is because that is, in a way, what faith is. Faith is empty hands, faith doesn't give something to God--it has nothing to give--rather faith receives from God. Faith is not something good in ourselves which we present to God which earns us salvation; rather faith is having nothing and receiving from God the good, the gifts, and the promises which God gives to us.

Thus saving faith saves, not because it does something; but because it receives something. And this receiving is not by my own strength or power, but is itself God's gift and work--to pry open my closed fist with His overabundance of kindness and grace. This the Holy Spirit does through Word and Sacrament.

How can we have any assurance from God of these things? Because of His promises. We have to look outside of ourselves, to God's Means of Grace: Word and Sacrament. The word we hear in the preaching of the Gospel, the promise attached to our baptism, the promise attached to the Lord's Supper, to God's express forgiveness in Holy Absolution. It is not from within myself, but from outside myself, in the external Word of God, that trusts, and hopes, and clings.

How can I know I belong to Jesus Christ? Baptizatus sum. I am baptized.

-CryptoLutheran

One is saved by grace, faith is instrumental as are works, but it is grace that saves, and one's faith cannot purchase salvation.

CCC 2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved. However, according to the Lord's words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"- reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty. A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges:

"Asked if she knew that she was in God's grace, she replied: 'If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.'"​

 

[ViaCrucis]

One is saved by grace, faith is instrumental as are works, but it is grace that saves, and one's faith cannot purchase salvation.

CCC 2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved. However, according to the Lord's words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"- reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty. A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges:​

"Asked if she knew that she was in God's grace, she replied: 'If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.'"​

I would be in complete agreement that faith cannot purchase salvation. Which is why I was emphatic that faith is not about giving something to God, but receiving.

Luther's two favorite metaphors for faith are the beggar with empty hands and that of a faceted ring. A beggar with empty hands has nothing, and can only receive something, that's faith. The faceted ring metaphor illustrates that one can have a ring made of a cheap material, what makes a ring valuable is the gemstone which fits into the ring--it isn't the value of our faith, but rather the One which this faith cleaves to. A ring of pewter is worthless, but put add to it a precious stone, it is now value. Christ is the precious stone, our faith is the lumpy metal.

I come before God with nothing but sinful empty hands.
God comes down to me in His grace, clothes me with His Son and His righteousness, and gives me every good and precious Gift.

Works are instrumental, not in receiving these good gifts from God; but in the life of a penitent sinner thankful for receiving this gift and living in cooperation with the good will of a loving Father. To produce works worthy of repentance (Matthew 3:8). I don't bring my works before God, but rather before my neighbor, "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds, and glorify your Father in heaven." (Matthew 5:16). For by grace we were created for good works (Ephesians 2:10).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Guojing]

Some Christians tell me, as a Catholic, that I am not saved because I allegedly believe that I am saved by faith plus works. They are, of course, wrong since I believe no such thing. Nevertheless, I got to wondering if they say ,"we are saved by faith [alone] apart from works", then how do they know that the kind of faith that they have is genuine 24 caret saving faith?

This is what some people call backloading works.

Front-Loading works into the Gospel would like something this:

“For you to be saved you have to be willing to give up your life first”

“You need to stop sinning and live holy, or else you cannot be saved”

“In order for you to be saved, you need to be baptized in water, keep the sacraments, do penance, and join our church to be saved.”

And usually this happens when Salvation and Discipleship are Combined together. For example, When a preacher says to a sinner:

“Before you can be saved, you have to be willing to follow Christ Jesus for the rest of your life.”

What that preacher just did is combine Salvation with Discipleship. And the two are different. Salvation is not discipleship. And Discipleship is not Salvation. Salvation is a one time event, where as Discipleship is a life long process.

Another example of combining Salvation and Discipleship together would be a preacher saying something like this:

“If you want to be saved, you have to be willing to forsake all, give up your life, even hate your own life and be willing to deny yourself and follow Christ. In order for you to be truly saved, you must do these things.”

This again is a prime example of mixing Salvation with Discipleship. Hence, what you have here is works based salvation. Where one is Front-Loading works into the Gospel. But Salvation is not of works, but it is only by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is the Gift of God. Not of Works, Lest any man should Boast. (Eph. 2:8-9).

Now those examples I just gave you deal with someone who, once again, is front-loading works into the Gospel. But what does it look like when someone is back-loading works into the Gospel?

Front-loading works into the Gospel is actually rather obvious. Since they are actually telling you up front that you must do those works in order to be saved. But when someone is back-loading works into the Gospel, it isn’t that clear, since it is more subtil. But here are a few examples of back-loading works into the Gospel:

“Well, while we are saved by grace through Faith without works. Still though, true saving faith Will produce good works.”

“We are saved by grace through faith in Christ, BUT true saving grace will change you, and you will bring forth fruit and good works, if you have been truly saved.”

“We are not preaching works based salvation, BUT we are preaching Salvation-Works.”

“We are saved by grace through faith that Works.”

“We are not saved by works, BUT true salvation and true faith will have works.”

“We are saved by grace through Faith, BUT true saving faith will have the good works. Good works will accompany saving faith.”

Now those are some examples of a person who is back-loading works into the Gospel.

Telling a sinner when they get saved, that they Will do good works. And that those good works are proof that they have been truly saved.

 

[ozso]

It's the old catch 22 argument.

Faith is accompanied by works is touted as; trying to earn your salvation though doing good deeds.

Faith alone though grace alone is touted as; saying it's okay to have no works and sin like the devil.

 

[RandyPNW]

Some Christians tell me, as a Catholic, that I am not saved because I allegedly believe that I am saved by faith plus works. They are, of course, wrong since I believe no such thing. Nevertheless, I got to wondering if they say ,"we are saved by faith [alone] apart from works", then how do they know that the kind of faith that they have is genuine 24 caret saving faith?

This is, I think, a very common misunderstanding. "Works" referenced with respect to Salvation have to do with Christ's Work of Redemption alone--nothing sinful human beings can do can provide themselves with Eternal Life.

On the other hand, all Christians need to do Works of Christian righteousness. If you don't do any Works of Righteousness, you certainly will *not* be Saved.

 

[Guojing]

This is, I think, a very common misunderstanding. "Works" referenced with respect to Salvation have to do with Christ's Work of Redemption alone--nothing sinful human beings can do can provide themselves with Eternal Life.

On the other hand, all Christians need to do Works of Christian righteousness. If you don't do any Works of Righteousness, you certainly will *not* be Saved.

So you are saying works are necessary, but not sufficient for salvation?

 

[Danthemailman]

Some Christians tell me, as a Catholic, that I am not saved because I allegedly believe that I am saved by faith plus works. They are, of course, wrong since I believe no such thing. Nevertheless, I got to wondering if they say ,"we are saved by faith [alone] apart from works", then how do they know that the kind of faith that they have is genuine 24 caret saving faith?

Prior to my conversion, I was born and raised in the Roman Catholic church, and they taught me that salvation is by faith and works. I was previously in a discussion on a different Christian forum site with a Roman Catholic about this very topic and I clarified to him that we are saved by grace through faith, not works (citing Ephesians 2:8,9) and the Roman Catholic responded by saying, "I know that."

Then after we discussed it a little deeper, it turns out the Roman Catholic misinterpreted Ephesians 2:8,9 as such: Saved by grace through faith "infused" with works, just not works of the law. Saved through faith + "these" works (good works) just not "those" works (works of the law). Yet when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, we cannot dissect good works from the law. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40) Paul does not merely limit works only to specific works done under the law but includes works in general. (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

I discovered the ROOT of the problem of the Roman Catholic misinterpretation. That Roman Catholic also made this statement below:

We are saved by faith - as long as you properly DEFINE "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments etc..

At first this Roman Catholic claimed that the Roman Catholic church did not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, contradicted himself by saying that we are saved by accomplishing this check list of works above. So, his argument about the Roman Catholic church not teaching salvation by works, then turning around and saying that faith is "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar-coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works.

 

[Danthemailman]

Saving faith trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and not in Jesus Christ + works. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-26).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.* (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony*

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Prior to my conversion, I was born and raised in the Roman Catholic church, and they taught me that salvation is by faith and works. I was previously in a discussion on a different Christian forum site with a Roman Catholic about this very topic and I clarified to him that we are saved by grace through faith, not works (citing Ephesians 2:8,9) and the Roman Catholic responded by saying, "I know that."

Then after we discussed it a little deeper, it turns out the Roman Catholic misinterpreted Ephesians 2:8,9 as such: Saved by grace through faith "infused" with works, just not works of the law. Saved through faith + "these" works (good works) just not "those" works (works of the law). Yet when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, we cannot dissect good works from the law. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40) Paul does not merely limit works only to specific works done under the law but includes works in general. (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

I discovered the ROOT of the problem of the Roman Catholic misinterpretation. That Roman Catholic also made this statement below:

We are saved by faith - as long as you properly DEFINE "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments etc..

At first this Roman Catholic claimed that the Roman Catholic church did not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, contradicted himself by saying that we are saved by accomplishing this check list of works above. So, his argument about the Roman Catholic church not teaching salvation by works, then turning around and saying that faith is "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar-coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works.

Is it saving faith if it produces no works (of righteousness)?