Sauna culture in German speaking nations

[JonathanP]

Hello All

I am from the UK and have a question based around the issue of modesty, clothing and culture.

This question is addressed to all Christians from German speaking countries (Germany, Austria, Switzerland) and probably Netherlands and a few other places too where sauna culture is typically both mixed gender and fully undressed. It also seems that it is a fairly common thing to do even for those who may not consider themselves "naturists."

As you may know for myself being from the UK and for many outside of your own country this all seems a little peculiar to say the least. Some cultures would require that people remain covered in some way and others which are undressed would be strictly same sex. Only fairly recently I found out that it was normal in German speaking cultures (and a few other places) to have mixed and undressed saunas.

I am sure that the whole "naturist" and other nudity questions will have been done a lot on this forum elsewhere. For whatever people think about it modesty is something that is largely determined by culture and context, rather than being a set rule for all people everywhere at all times.

So I am just very curious to know how common it is for Christians from your cultures to attend these kind of naturist saunas? Is it something that the Christians tend to avoid as believers? By Christians I mean church attending people who are seeking to grow in holiness (appreciate that none of us is perfect though).

Would really like to hear your views on this and have a discussion.

danke schön

 

[Kalevalatar]

I'm a Christian from the Finnish-speaking sauna culture.

Sauna is a neutral, sexless/anti-sexualised and pretty much genderless no-tags space: people, God's Creation, bathe in saunas, not men, women, old, young, poor, rich, fat, skinny, or disable bodied people. Just people. In a sauna, you are not, your neighbour is not a bigwig CEO or the President of the Republic, just a fellow human being.

It's hard to explain to a foreigner, but showing a hint of cleavage at the Christian ladies' lunch would raise eyebrows, yet a ladies' sauna evening with the same Christian ladies with everyone wearing nothing, would indeed be nothing to bat an eye at. The former is intentional showing off, the latter is just what it is, people having sauna, no hidden intentions.

Sauna is a clean space and swimsuits in saunas are unhygienic. Wearing a swimsuit in a sauna is like wearing garden gloves to a surgery.

Since sauna is an asexual space, if you come wearing a swimsuit to "protect" your "modesty", you are in fact turning it into an unwanted sexualised space. Foreigners often don't get this, but you're far more invisible in a sauna fully naked than trying to cover your parts that no one is interested in anyway.

Many foreigners, especially women, who've dared to bare in a Finnish sauna the Finnish-way, speak of it as a liberating experience that has boosted their body confidence, seeing all these less-than-pefect bodies as we come in different shapes and sizes. That's a good thing, especially in these times when there's the huge advertisement & marketing industry selling women dissatisfaction with their own bodies and looks in order to profit from the manifactured unhappiness. No one should be needlessly ashamed of their God-given body.

For me, bathing with the womenfolk and children of my extended family, my Mom, Grandma, sisters-in-law, aunts is an incredibly uplifting and intimate occasion full of laughter and "women's talk". It reinforces our unity as the ladies of our family and several generations of mothers, definitely. It's about moms and daughters and sisters.

I don't think I know a single fellow church-going Christian who'd have problem with our naked sauna culture. All church camps have saunas and daily evening saunas are a norm. Christians have saunas at home and at their vacation home, and group saunas are an inseparable part of our lakeside cottage culture. Our sauna culture is just as unproblematic to Christians as it is to the native non-believers. In fact, sauna, just as the Finnish woods, is the place where many feel easy to think God and speak to God, even those more infrequent church-goers.

 

[garydoc]

I agree with your post. The sauna culture in Europe is essentially non-sexual. It is not about sex at all, just being in our natural state with others. Great Britain and America and Canada seem to be too shy about the human body, which is meant to be natural and neutral in its bare naked state. I think our religion was affected by the Victorian cuture, which sexualized any display of the human body as sinful or perverse. Some Christians are even embarrassed about being naked with their spouse for sex. God created us naked and said that was good. What God said is good enough for me.

 

[toothfairy72]

Sorry, but I have to disagree. I am german/american, grew up in Germany and have lived here most of my life. Nudity is seen much more normal than in other countries.
Does it make Saunas etc.completely neutral areas? No!
While most Saunas aren't mixed in Finland maybe, they are in Germany! And people do check out other peoples bodies, no matter how "progressive" they say they are.
I am married to a german and he was/is really into Saunas. I was always too embarrassed to go completely naked but after a couple of times I relaxed and walked around nude like everybody else. Neither was I invisible nor was I ignored.
Men stared at my body, some younger men actually started masturbating in the steam room while staring at me and there was an underlying sexual tension I could feel everywhere. I felt God working on me to stop going to the mixed sauna and only go to the womens special days that were being offered. This disgruntled my hubby because he enjoyed going as a couple, but I knew in my heart that no matter how normal a culture views nudity, you can't cancel out sexual attraction at the sight of naked bodies of the opposite sex.

 

[Kalevalatar]

Sorry, but I have to disagree. I am german/american, grew up in Germany and have lived here most of my life. Nudity is seen much more normal than in other countries.
Does it make Saunas etc.completely neutral areas? No!
While most Saunas aren't mixed in Finland maybe, they are in Germany! And people do check out other peoples bodies, no matter how "progressive" they say they are.
I am married to a german and he was/is really into Saunas. I was always too embarrassed to go completely naked but after a couple of times I relaxed and walked around nude like everybody else. Neither was I invisible nor was I ignored.
Men stared at my body, some younger men actually started masturbating in the steam room while staring at me and there was an underlying sexual tension I could feel everywhere. I felt God working on me to stop going to the mixed sauna and only go to the womens special days that were being offered. This disgruntled my hubby because he enjoyed going as a couple, but I knew in my heart that no matter how normal a culture views nudity, you can't cancel out sexual attraction at the sight of naked bodies of the opposite sex.

Sex in the sauna is a German/continental European thing. For us Finns, German sauna is an euphemism for a brothel, because many German brothels mix sauna and sex. Obviously a different culture.

 

[Bonifatius]

Hello All

I am from the UK and have a question based around the issue of modesty, clothing and culture.

This question is addressed to all Christians from German speaking countries (Germany, Austria, Switzerland) and probably Netherlands and a few other places too where sauna culture is typically both mixed gender and fully undressed. It also seems that it is a fairly common thing to do even for those who may not consider themselves "naturists."

As you may know for myself being from the UK and for many outside of your own country this all seems a little peculiar to say the least. Some cultures would require that people remain covered in some way and others which are undressed would be strictly same sex. Only fairly recently I found out that it was normal in German speaking cultures (and a few other places) to have mixed and undressed saunas.

I am sure that the whole "naturist" and other nudity questions will have been done a lot on this forum elsewhere. For whatever people think about it modesty is something that is largely determined by culture and context, rather than being a set rule for all people everywhere at all times.

So I am just very curious to know how common it is for Christians from your cultures to attend these kind of naturist saunas? Is it something that the Christians tend to avoid as believers? By Christians I mean church attending people who are seeking to grow in holiness (appreciate that none of us is perfect though).

Would really like to hear your views on this and have a discussion.

danke schön

Hi, I am very much amused by your questions since I (German) have lived in the UK for a number of years. I used to go to the sauna in Germany regularly and so I knew the sauna rules. German saunas would not consider themselves as naturist, but of course it is a rule that you are not allowed to wear any kind of speedos or else in the sauna. You may use a towel to cover yourself, but certainly you have to sit on a towel.

When I moved to the UK I found it very difficult to find a sauna at all (finally I was lucky to find a gym with a fairly decent pool and sauna). And then I was pretty much shocked by the way people behaved in British saunas: Hardly anyone would use a towel at all. The would just sit on the wooden benches. And they would not take off their speedos or swimming gear. Both I found pretty disgusting and not very hygienic. In Germany (and Scandinavia I believe) people would avoid to sit on the wood directly, they would also avoid to let their sweat drip on the wood. Wearing swim gear in the sauna does also build up heat in your body, let alone the fact that the chemicals in the textiles might do harm to your skin when getting too hot. And the most annoying thing: I usually found the cold water pool missing. The principle of a sauna only works if you cool down after sitting in the sauna for 10 or 15 mins. But the English did not seem to follow that rule...

Well, I had to adapt in some ways but was very keen on going to a proper German sauna when back in Germany.

As to your question: Most Christians in Germany would use the sauna just as other people. There might be some very conservative Christians who would not go at all or only on special days when it is not mixed. But I think that is a minority. I think one big difference between our cultures is that in Germany (and other parts of Europe) nudity is seen as more natural and in a way 'neutral' while I felt that in the UK nudity is very much seen as an invitation to sex.

 

[YuEba]

Hi, I'm a Japanese.

I'm very interested in the nudism and/or naturism in Europe. As same as in many coutries, tolerance for public nudity is very limited in Japan. But I think Japanese people can be more open about their nudity because we did have konyoku culture here.

I know nudism is common in Germany. Even in an urban park such as English Garden, they can become nude and walking around. This is faburous idea. I'm working in an urban area of Tokyo and spend busy days in our office. If I can walk around nude in near-by park along with my co-workers including ladies, it must be relaxing and enjoyable.

By the way, how much percent of German people become nude in public space ? 100% of men and women expose their full nudity everywhere ?

 

[Kalevalatar]

Hi, I'm a Japanese.

I'm very interested in the nudism and/or naturism in Europe. As same as in many coutries, tolerance for public nudity is very limited in Japan. But I think Japanese people can be more open about their nudity because we did have konyoku culture here.

To clarify, nudity in Finnish sauna culture should not be mistaken for nudism or naturism in public places, such as beaches, any more than nudity in shower. A whole different hobby.

 

[Bonifatius]

Hi, I'm a Japanese.

I'm very interested in the nudism and/or naturism in Europe. As same as in many coutries, tolerance for public nudity is very limited in Japan. But I think Japanese people can be more open about their nudity because we did have konyoku culture here.

I know nudism is common in Germany. Even in an urban park such as English Garden, they can become nude and walking around. This is faburous idea. I'm working in an urban area of Tokyo and spend busy days in our office. If I can walk around nude in near-by park along with my co-workers including ladies, it must be relaxing and enjoyable.

By the way, how much percent of German people become nude in public space ? 100% of men and women expose their full nudity everywhere ?

Well, to be clear: there is not much tolerance for public nudity in Germany. There are areas in parks such as the English Garden in Munich and other areas where nudity is accepted, but generally nudity is only accepted in restricted areas and beaches which would be marked as 'FKK' (Freikörperkultur) or baths and saunas where there are strict rules. Outside those areas with clear rules nudity is practically banned.

If you try to get nude just like that somewhere in a public space the police might be there in no time.

 

[YuEba]

To clarify, nudity in Finnish sauna culture should not be mistaken for nudism or naturism in public places, such as beaches, any more than nudity in shower. A whole different hobby.

Thank you for your advise. However the biggest surprise about the sauna culture for a foreigner like me is that both sexes don't hesitate to expose their nudity to opposite sexes. In this context, sauna and naturism have a common aspect, I think.

By the way, my understanding is that naturism or nudism became popular in Europe a century ago. On the other hand, I don't know the history of the sauna culture. Does sauna culture have longer history than naturism has ?

If you could share your knowledge, it would highly be appreciated.

 

[YuEba]

Well, to be clear: there is not much tolerance for public nudity in Germany. There are areas in parks such as the English Garden in Munich and other areas where nudity is accepted, but generally nudity is only accepted in restricted areas and beaches which would be marked as 'FKK' (Freikörperkultur) or baths and saunas where there are strict rules. Outside those areas with clear rules nudity is practically banned.

If you try to get nude just like that somewhere in a public space the police might be there in no time.

Thank you for your advise. I don't want police

As a foreigner, I know Germans are more tolerant about public nudity than other cultures are. However I don't know how much tolerant about it Germans are.

Could you give me a clue, in order for me to understand public nudity in Germany ?

Approximately, what percentage of German people enjoy nude beaches ? Also what percentage about sauna ?

 

[YuEba]

As you may know, Japan has its own konyoku culture that is rapidly vanishing though.

In a konyoku-onsen (hot spring spa), you can enjoy nudism with opposite sexes. Traditionally you can't use towel or swimsuit when you dip your body in the hot water in order to keep water clean. Also it is a rule or a manner that you can't stare at other's body especially man should not stare at woman's body.　In my experiance, it is crucial to prevent erection. I guess it is also common in Germany, isn't it ?

However for women, using large towel to hide their body is largely accepted. So actually rare ladies expose their body nowadays. In my experiance, rare ladies who are typically beautiful and attractive exhibit their complete nudity. They are typically shaved like a German girls.

 

[Bonifatius]

Could you give me a clue, in order for me to understand public nudity in Germany ?

Approximately, what percentage of German people enjoy nude beaches ? Also what percentage about sauna ?

Well, the main part of it is that nudity is not 'public'. It is restricted to clearly defined areas and times, such as saunas, nudist beaches, certain areas in parks (FKK-Bereich) etc. Some swimming pools (mainly indoor swimming pools) in combination with their sauna areas might offer 'nude swimming' (textilfreies Schwimmen) at some special times, so that you can hop from the sauna to the swimming pool without getting dressed first. But these times and the rules are clearly defined, so that you know where you are and what the rules are.

There are a few parks where nudism is accepted even outside striclty defined areas (such as the Englischer Garten in Munich), but it would always be good to check before you undress that there is no one in the vicinity who might be offended by your nudity, otherwise you might get yourself into trouble.

I cannot give you a percentage of people who enjoy nude beaches or saunas. Many people go on a regular basis, others would never go in their lifetime. I would guess it is about half of the populuation who go or have been to a sauna and the other half who wouldn't, but that's difficult to guess, really.

 

[LynnC]

Sorry, but I have to disagree. I am german/american, grew up in Germany and have lived here most of my life. Nudity is seen much more normal than in other countries.
Does it make Saunas etc.completely neutral areas? No!
While most Saunas aren't mixed in Finland maybe, they are in Germany! And people do check out other peoples bodies, no matter how "progressive" they say they are.
I am married to a german and he was/is really into Saunas. I was always too embarrassed to go completely naked but after a couple of times I relaxed and walked around nude like everybody else. Neither was I invisible nor was I ignored.
Men stared at my body, some younger men actually started masturbating in the steam room while staring at me and there was an underlying sexual tension I could feel everywhere. I felt God working on me to stop going to the mixed sauna and only go to the womens special days that were being offered. This disgruntled my hubby because he enjoyed going as a couple, but I knew in my heart that no matter how normal a culture views nudity, you can't cancel out sexual attraction at the sight of naked bodies of the opposite sex.

Thank you. This is a most sensible post.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Another thing - slightly different - is that toplessness on beaches is very widespread in Europe. On the one hand some conservative Christians in North America even go huffing and puffing against bikinis; meanwhile, in Europe there is a lot of toplessness on beaches. I'm not arguing in favor; but just to say that very conservative North Americans ought not to project their kind of assumptions elsewhere.

 

[Bonifatius]

This week I saw a funny (but still VERY serious) video about life in Germany, particularly life on a Sunday, which includes some info on how to do sauna...

 

[Kalevalatar]

By the way, my understanding is that naturism or nudism became popular in Europe a century ago. On the other hand, I don't know the history of the sauna culture. Does sauna culture have longer history than naturism has ?

If you could share your knowledge, it would highly be appreciated.

Saunas in Finland are much older than written Finnish language and culture. Sauna itself, of course, is a Finnish word. We're talking about thousands of years here. Apart from the electric kiuas, the sauna heater/stove thing, saunas are basically very much the same they were, say, 2,000 years ago.

As to the history of "naturism" thing, the western taboo of nudity is as young as nationalism, a 19th century Victorian invention, basically. Up until the WWII and following urbanization and industrialisation, the vast majority of the world's folks and families lived in cramed spaces with no notion of privacy or private rooms. They slept, ate, ailed, pooped, procreated, gave birth and died in front of their fellow people. The world was like an ice hockey shower & locker room back then: the hockey players don't have a naturism-as-a-hobby thing going on there. They just go through the motions, naked bodies and all.

 

[Kalevalatar]

BBC did a nice article on the Northern European sauna culture:

Instead of the pub after work,
they get naked together here
By Lennox Morrison

For me it was a seismic culture shock. But in Germany, Holland or Finland it’s not unusual to visit a sauna with colleagues. And in Finland it’s perfectly natural to have seen your boss without a stitch of clothing.

Finn Tommi Uitto, senior vice president of global product sales, mobile networks at telecommunications multinational Nokia, explains, “In the sauna there are no titles, no clothes. There are no egos. It’s only you and your thoughts and your words and the same applies to the other person, so it’s much more human being to human being and all the unnecessary decoration is gone.”