Romans 3:30's "By Faith" and "Through Faith"

[Danoh]

Romans 3:19. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3: 21. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22. Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24. Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25. Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26. To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29. Is he the God of the Jews only? Is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30. Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

I struggled with Romans 3:29’s “”by faith and through faith” for some time; for the very reason many Believers struggle with such passages – we check to see what one Pastor or Teacher or another had to say, or wrote – which does not help us to learn how to exegete – dig out of a passage what is there for us to uncover for ourselves.

Another mistake we fall prey to is to guess at it by first reading it one way, then another, and so on, all the while forgetting our key to understanding the Bible – attempt to understand what we can of the context of the passage, doing so from what we are already on solid ground on, dispensationally.

In short, from the Mid-Acts Perspective of Bible Study itself - which basically states that Paul’s writings are Dispensational in Nature – a reference, not so much to ages and or time issues, although that plays a part, but to the Issue of Identity – of God's Two-Fold Purpose, thus, of His Two Peoples.

That of His Presently On Hold, long Prophesied by Israel’s prophets Since the Foundation of the World, Plan and Purpose for His reconciling this Presently Fallen Earth back unto Himself through a redeemed Israel one day - and - His Kept Secret Since Before the Foundation of the World Plan and Purpose to reconcile back unto Himself through A New Creature, the Body of Christ, those Presently Fallen High Places in Heavenly Places even now the domain of the Prince of the Power of the Air and his dark princes.


We need to keep this Two-Fold Division of Israel over the Nations one day, it’s Kingdom Restored, Acts 1:6, Rom. 11:26-27, with Christ as David’s rightful Heir, Luke 1 – we need to keep that separate from God’s Plans and Purpose for those fallen Heavenly Places, Isaiah 14; Eph. 2:2; 6:12, through that New Creature, the Body of Christ – comprised of Jew and Gentile – “Which is His body, the fulness of him that will one day fill all in all,” Eph. 1:23 – over all the Universe, with Christ as it's Head.


With that as our framework, it becomes obvious that our first focus should not so much be on what “by faith,” and “through faith” might mean, or even on whether or not they differ, but rather on the Identity Issue - Dispensationally - that Paul is addressing - the people Paul is talking about – Dispensationally - and how the context of the passage itself plays a role; seeing as we’re on the safe ground of True Pauline Dispensationalism right here in this chapter.

I mean, that’s what’s going on – Paul has just introduced the concept that “But now the righteousness of God without the Law is made manifest.”

As he proceeds through that, he knows he will also have to answer the question of what has become of Romans 10’s, “the righteousness of God which is of the Law.”

This is exactly what he is doing; dealing with the issue that justifying the uncircumcision through faith raises regarding what’s become of justification of the circumcision under the Law – the issue of wait a minute, what about God’s other program – Israel’s – that righteousness which is of the law “by faith?”

29. Is he the God of the Jews only? Is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30. Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

One God - a Two-Fold Purpose.

Take a look at the last passage:

31. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

This is what is so delicious about Paul’s writings – he always throws in that last minute midnight’s snack to chew on – hmm, how is this last verse tied in to all he has just laid out? I mean; its there – what is it our dear brother, Paul, wants us to see?

Ah, it’s his usual manner of beginning on one end and coming out on the other side to the very issue he began with – he is contrasting Two Systems and Identities – that’s right Paul; verify once more we have been sound in following you as our Apostle, just as Christ intended! Praise the Lord for His Word, when rightly divided in light of the Mystery!

Anyway, Paul is basically addressing the Dispensational Issue of Identity – how it is that this new, now time revelation of his – “now the righteousness of God without the Law,” in no way voids God’s yet future plans for Israel, His justifying them one day by faith, under His Law system.

A partial example of that is Luke 1:

5. There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Here is another example of this walking under the Law by faith, by way of a contrast of those two faithful servants iof God in Luke 1 doing just that - walking by faith under the Law, as God, through Moses, had commanded Israel. Here is a contrast of that walking by faith under the Law – here in the following example - of Israel's disobedience to this faith principle, as it worked "under the Law."

Notice how it ties in to Paul’s declarations in Romans 2 and 3 leading up to Romans 3:19 - 31:

Romans 2: 28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

There in Romans 2 we see that even under the Law, the issue was not mere outward works but works from inward faith. This was Israel’s “by faith” system under Moses. 'God said through Moses said to do such and such, so I, by faith, will walk in those works – not because I’ll look all holy to men, but because this is what God through Moses commanded I do....'

Go back up and read Luke 1:5, 6, and see if that is not what is happening there.

Now note, how such was not the case with those within Israel which were really not, the Israel of God - Romans 10:

30. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33. As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

“They of Israel which were not of Israel,” Rom. 9:6 were so used to being what Paul in Acts 23:3 had referred to as a “whited wall” – the white paint of outer works of the Law, masking the inward darkness of the uncircumcision of their heart, that when their Messiah showed up, His doing so proved a stumbling block – they were simply unable to believe neither on Him, to their shame.

When the Holy Spirit continued the Lord's ministry to Israel in Acts 1-7, as Hebrews 2:3-5 confirms – that Israel was still the issue in Early Acts, Israel, having stumbled at the Cross, now fell, in their speaking aginst the Holy Spirit; which sin both the Lord in His Earthly ministry, and the Holy Spirit, through the writer of Hebrews both warn them would not be forgiven Israel in that age, or in the world to come.

Nevertheless, The LORD had declared - ”I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed,” Malachi 3.

In line with this promise to Israel – that He is the LORD and does not go back on His Word, Paul’s point in Romans 3:30 is that God’s now time revelation – “the righteousness without the law,” in no way voids God’s Covenant with Israel under the Law, to one day justify them by faith under that system, as they, by faith, at last obey Moses, believe Jesus was the One Moses spoke of; submit to John’s water baptism of repentance for the remission of sins - their answer of a good conscience towards God - that; sprinkled with clean water from all their filthiness, He might give them a new heart at last, put His Spirit within them, no longer remember their sins, and at last enable them to walk in His statutes, as per His New Covenant, Ezek. 36: 22-37; Jer. 31:31-34.

Rom. 3:30, then - as are all Paul’s 13 Epistles - is Dispensational in Nature – that difference in both Identity and Programs between God’s Two Peoples – the Israel of God, and the Body of Christ.

"The Israel of God," one day to be justified by faith under "the Law of righteousness," the Body of Christ – us – justified according to “the righteousness of God without the Law” – through faith alone, that is; through the faith of Christ – now,” Rom. 11:25-27.

Much more could be said about this Two-Fold distinction. For example, what was under the law, approved of God, is under grace, a trangression, Gal. 2:19.

There is more to salvation then having escaped eternal damnation - there is the issue of walking in that salvation to an with eternal glory - which Paul's Epistles alone address, as the Apostle of the Gentiles.


Danoh
Eph. 4:16

 

[glen55]

Read Romans 15:9-27, Something about it (Gods mercy) being pre- written about, which 1Tim 1:16 is a reference to and shows why Paul was called out to teach that prophetic truth to all men, and something about you gentiles rejoice with His people, where is that found?, something about gentiles being blessed through their spiritual things, where was this principle found?, then go to Romans 11:5-6 and tell me "how" the remnant of Pauls people were being saved? you claim works but Paul shows that to be a falsh perception, read Peters remarks in Acts 15:11 as well concerning grace.

Grace, Glen.

 

[Danoh]

Read Romans 15:9-27, Something about it (Gods mercy) being pre- written about, which 1Tim 1:16 is a reference to and shows why Paul was called out to teach that prophetic truth to all men, and something about you gentiles rejoice with His people, where is that found?, something about gentiles being blessed through their spiritual things, where was this principle found?, then go to Romans 11:5-6 and tell me "how" the remnant of Pauls people were being saved? you claim works but Paul shows that to be a falsh perception, read Peters remarks in Acts 15:11 as well concerning grace.

Grace, Glen.

Again, you are reading your Acts 28 conclusions into Paul's earlier writings - that they are Kingdom while his Prison Epistles were Body.

Peter's words are made both from what he understood about God's prophesied plan for Israel and what he did not understand about God's delay in that program due to God's unprophesied gospel through Paul.

What Peter understood, in fact, what he many years later still affirmed in 1 Peter 1nad 2 Peter 3 was that their prophesied grace was yet future. Acts 15:11's "shall be saved, even as they" are now is what he and James affirm there after hearing Paul. They did not understand it, yet affirmed it.

Peter, James and John were confused as to what was going through Paul's gospel. Deny that all you want - if Paul had been preaching their kingdom gospel they would not have been confused. Gal. 1 and 2, Paul's very first letter also acknowledges this.

This is obvious in Acts 10. Before Israel is redeemed - as had been prophesied - Peter is sent to a Gentile. At which point He becomes confused because he obeying the Lord's instruction to him in Matthew 23: 1, 2.

He even relates this "Law" to Cornelius. What does poor Peter do anyway? He begins to preach what he knows - Moses "righteousness of the Law" Rom. 10. But before he even belts out Acts 2:38 to Cornelius and his group the Spirit saves Cornelius, at which point, now further confused as to what is going on that Acts 2:38 is reversed, Peter goes ahead and water baptizes him. It is as clear as day from Acts, 10, 11, 15, and Rom. 11:25-27, Gal 2, 1 Cor. 1:22; and 14:21, 22 why "they of the circumcision which believed were astonished" in this change in the order of things.

You need to get out of Paul's Prison Epistles alone - study all his Epistles, and while you are at it, study out Israel's prophesied order of things right there in black and white in Exodus, Deuteronomy, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, et al.

Isaiah 2:
1. The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
5. O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

Acts 1:
3. To whom [the Twelve] also he [Christ] shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

What kingdom?

6. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Acts 3:
12. And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?
13. The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

18. But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21. Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

It was prophesied that Israel was to have been redeemed first, only then the nations - through Israel. Redeemed, Israel was to then take the gospel of the kingdom to the nations the Twelve continued to preach beginning "at Jerusalem, Judaea, and Samaria, and the utter most parts of the world" where the various Twelve Tribes of Israel were at at that time.

That out of the way - "the children first filled" Matt. 15:24, then the Gentiles.

What happened in Acts 10 broke from that and only Paul knew what was going on given his Romans 11:25-27 revelation by the Lord Himself - when? In Acts 9, per Paul's own testimony to this fact in Acts 22:17-21, and elsewhere:

17. And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;
18. And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.
19. And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:
20. And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
21. And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.

Rom. 11:25-27:
25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles
be come in.
26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

You ask all these questions - here is one for you - where in a multiplicity of the writings of Israel's prophets do we read that, this time, when God turned from Israel, as he had in the past, where in a multiplicity of their writings do we read that this time He would not only turn from Israel but turn to the Gentiles without Israel as a nation being redeemed first?

Where? Nowhere other than in a verse or two in Paul's writings taken out of the context of the above - taken out of Paul's own context, as given him directly by the Lord.

Here is the answer to your twist of Romans 15:8-12. As Paul explains both in Romans 9-11 and in Romans 15, this prophesied hope was placed on hold and "now, the God of hope" is doing something through Paul's ministry because of the ministry given Paul. Rom. 15:13 forward is not the same as 8-12.

Here is Rom. 15:8-12. Do you actually see this happened?

Isaiah 66's post 2nd Coming activity - delayed per Romans 11:25:
19. And I will set a sign among them [Israel], and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

Here is also Matt. 28's commission, which James, Peter, and John, agreed with Paul in Gal. 2:2, 7-9 had changed:

20. And they shall bring all your brethren [Israel] for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
21. And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
22. For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

This is the Priesthood 1 Peter 1:9 speaks of which tradition in its failure to heed Rom. 11:25-27, has stolen from Israel and made the Body's foolish "priesthood of the believer."

Excuse the simplicity of all this - I try to keep in mind that many on here are not aware of this due to the fact that the truth of Romans 11:25 -27 was not being heeded thus Paul's having written it, and was eventually lost by "the Church," and replaced by the tradition many on here have learned to see things through.

Dano
Eph. 4:16

 

[glen55]

No I am taking the scriptures position which shows the kingdom was the hope being spoken of which Romans 15 prove as does the myriad of quotes from the prophets by Paul through that letter, Romans was wrote in the latter part of the acts period, those that where being saved was by grace and not works just like Paul writes in Romans 11, but even if it was his first letter the message is clear, by grace they where saved without the works of the law! Paul also tell us in Romans no man will be justified by the law so your two gospels for salvation is wrong, which is why galatians was wrote to show the promise gave to Abraham was not anulled by the law.

Pauls peoiple were blinded for the gentiles sake, who where grafted into the blessing of the natural olive tree along with the remnant. The doctrine of the one new mans heavenly status isn't being addressed yet.

Grace, Glen.

 

[JerryShugart]

Rom. 3:30, then - as are all Paul’s 13 Epistles - is Dispensational in Nature – that difference in both Identity and Programs between God’s Two Peoples – the Israel of God, and the Body of Christ.

"The Israel of God," one day to be justified by faith under "the Law of righteousness," the Body of Christ – us – justified according to “the righteousness of God without the Law” – through faith alone, that is; through the faith of Christ – now,” Rom. 11:25-27.

Danoh,

Let us look at the following verse:

"To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours" (1 Cor.1:2; NASB).

Mid Acts dispensationalist Cornelius Stam wrote the following commentary on 1 Corinthians 1:2:

"There are other evidences that the kingdom saints of Paul's day became members of the Body of Christ. In I Corinthians 1:2, Paul addresses his letter to the Corinthian church, 'with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs [those in every place] and ours [those with Paul].' And he says to 'all' these believers 'in every place': 'For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles' (I Cor. 12:13). How can this be made to exclude the Judean believers?" (Stam, Commentary on Galatians [Stevens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1998], p.198).

None of the gaints of Mid Acts dispensationalism, including Sir Robert Anderson or J.C. O'Hair, taught that the so-called "kingdom saints" were not members of the Body of Christ.

What you are teaching is what I can Neo-MAD, or Neo Mid Acts Dispensationalism.

 

[dan p]

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Danoh,

Let us look at the following verse:

"To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours" (1 Cor.1:2; NASB).

Mid Acts dispensationalist Cornelius Stam wrote the following commentary on 1 Corinthians 1:2:

"There are other evidences that the kingdom saints of Paul's day became members of the Body of Christ. In I Corinthians 1:2, Paul addresses his letter to the Corinthian church, 'with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs [those in every place] and ours [those with Paul].' And he says to 'all' these believers 'in every place': 'For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles' (I Cor. 12:13). How can this be made to exclude the Judean believers?" (Stam, Commentary on Galatians [Stevens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1998], p.198).

None of the gaints of Mid Acts dispensationalism, including Sir Robert Anderson or J.C. O'Hair, taught that the so-called "kingdom saints" were not members of the Body of Christ.

What you are teaching is what I can Neo-MAD, or Neo Mid Acts Dispensationalism.

Hi Jerry , and I have need of how you handle this .

If those you say are Kingdom saints , Judean believers , are in the Body , will you say that the 12 are in the Body ?

How will you define " in Christ " in 1 Cor 1:2 ?

Since " sanctified " is a perfect tense verb , does it change the timeline ?

I hope you can understand what I have written ?

dan p

 

[JerryShugart]

If those you say are Kingdom saints , Judean believers , are in the Body , will you say that the 12 are in the Body ?

dan p,

Yes, they were expecting to be changed when they are raptured, just like all those in the Body of Christ:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is" (1 Jn.3:2).

How will you define " in Christ " in 1 Cor 1:2 ?

Paul also says that if anyone be "in Christ" then he is a new creation:

"So if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new" (2 Cor.5:17; J. N. Darby Translation).

Cornelius Stam says, "The above rendering of II Cor. 5:17 by J.N.Darby, in his 'New Translation,' is doubtless more accurate than that of the 'Authorized Version.' This 'new creation,' this 'one new man,' this 'joint body,' formed of Jews and Gentiles made one in Christ, is called 'His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all' (Eph. 1:23)" (Stam, True Spirituality [Berean Literature Foundation, 1984], p. 48,50).

Those who are said to be "in Christ" are members of the Church, which is His Body. If "any one be in Christ" he is a member of the Body of Christ. It is inconceivable that Paul would use the phrase "in Christ" indiscriminately, sometimes applying it to the Body of Christ and sometimes not. That would lead to nothing but confusion and our Lord is not a God of confusion.

Since " sanctified " is a perfect tense verb , does it change the timeline ?

Not at all. Paul is speaking of those who have been already sanctified and are already in the Body of Christ.

 

[dan p]

dan p,

Yes, they were expecting to be changed when they are raptured, just like all those in the Body of Christ:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is" (1 Jn.3:2).

Paul also says that if anyone be "in Christ" then he is a new creation:

"So if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new" (2 Cor.5:17; J. N. Darby Translation).

Cornelius Stam says, "The above rendering of II Cor. 5:17 by J.N.Darby, in his 'New Translation,' is doubtless more accurate than that of the 'Authorized Version.' This 'new creation,' this 'one new man,' this 'joint body,' formed of Jews and Gentiles made one in Christ, is called 'His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all' (Eph. 1:23)" (Stam, True Spirituality [Berean Literature Foundation, 1984], p. 48,50).

Those who are said to be "in Christ" are members of the Church, which is His Body. If "any one be in Christ" he is a member of the Body of Christ. It is inconceivable that Paul would use the phrase "in Christ" indiscriminately, sometimes applying it to the Body of Christ and sometimes not. That would lead to nothing but confusion and our Lord is not a God of confusion.

Not at all. Paul is speaking of those who have been already sanctified and are already in the Body of Christ.

Hi , Jerry , and what I mean is this !

The question is in Rom 16:7 , that Andronicus and Junia were " in Christ " before Paul .

Are you saying that they were in the Body of Christ BEFORE SAUL in Acts 9:6 ??

dan p

 

[JerryShugart]

Hi , Jerry , and what I mean is this !

The question is in Rom 16:7 , that Andronicus and Junia were " in Christ " before Paul .

Are you saying that they were in the Body of Christ BEFORE SAUL in Acts 9:6 ??

dan p

Yes, I am.

I believe that the "dispensation of grace" began when Paul first began to preach the "gospel of grace."

However, when Paul was converted on the Damascus road the Lord Jesus told him the following in regard to the Gentiles:

"To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me" (Acts 26:18).

The only people who had been sanctified before Paul were Jewish believers. Therefore the Gentiles who believed were to share the same inheritance that was given to the Jewish believers. Paul said the same thing to the Ephesian elders:

"And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified" (Acts 20:32).

The inheritance which the Gentile believers receive is said to be "among all them which are sanctified." That would surely be in regard to the Jewish believers. Paul also wrote the following to the church at Rome:

"For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem. It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things" (Ro.15:26-27).

Since Paul spoke of others being in the Body of Christ before he was then it can be concluded that the shared "inheritance" of the Gentile believers and the Jewish believers included membership in the Body of Christ. The Gentiles were made partakers of the Jewish believer's spiritual things, including membership in the Church, which is His Body.

 

[dan p]

Yes, I am.

I believe that the "dispensation of grace" began when Paul first began to preach the "gospel of grace."

However, when Paul was converted on the Damascus road the Lord Jesus told him the following in regard to the Gentiles:
y.

Hi , Jerry , and if you believe that " dispensation of Grace " began with Paul , How then can you say the Andronicus and Junia were " in Christ " before Paul ??

Paul is the only one that I have read who talks about the " new man " in Eph 2:15 and is not found in the OT or the gospels ??

And I just see something , and you believe that the Body begins in Act 13 ??

dan p

 

[JerryShugart]

Hi , Jerry , and if you believe that " dispensation of Grace " began with Paul , How then can you say the Andronicus and Junia were " in Christ " before Paul ??

A dispensation is an entirely different thing than the Body of Christ.

Paul is the only one that I have read who talks about the " new man " in Eph 2:15 and is not found in the OT or the gospels ??

Just because Paul was the first person to be told the truths on the Bodt of Christ does not mean that it could not have started before he was given those truths.

And I just see something , and you believe that the Body begins in Act 13 ??

No, I do not.

Ever since the Lord redeemed the nation of Israel from slavery in Egypt they were a "special people, above all people that are upon the face of the earth":

"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth" (Deut.7:6).

However, today there are no special people unto the Lord except those
who are members of the Body of Christ. And in the Body all national distinctions have been done away with:

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal.3:27-28).

Since in the Body of Christ there is no difference between the Jew other people that means that at some point in time national Israel was temporarily set aside. That is because the Lord cannot act at the same time upon two wholly different and incompatible principles. In other words, He cannot deal with the Jews as a special people at the same time when He declares that there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek.

Therefore we can conclude that before the Lord could begin to build His heavenly Church He must have first temporarily cast aside national Israel. I believe that this happened when Stephen was stoned at Acts 7. In The Berean Searchlight Mid Acts dispensationalist Win Johnson wrote:

"Matthew 12:31,32 states: 'Wherefore I say unto you, all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world [age], neither in the world to come.'

"These words of warning came from the lips of the Son of God while He walked among men in His earthly ministry. They were addressed to the religious leaders of the nation Israel. Their blasphemy against Him even when He hung on the Cross was forgiven by the Father in answer to the prayer, 'Father forgive them, for they know not what they do' (Luke 23:34).

"But when at Pentecost, Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, announced the return of Messiah on the condition of Israel's national repentance, these leaders instigated a persecution that reached its climax in the stoning of Stephen, a godly man, 'full of the Holy Ghost' (Acts 7:54-60). It was here that the 'unpardonable sin' was committed by Israel's leaders. The Third Person of the Trinity had been blasphemed and His pleadings through the Apostles ignored. This sin will never be forgiven" (Win Johnson, "The Unpardonable Sin," The Berean Searchlight, Feb.2001, p.6).

The "unpardonable sin" was committed at Acts 7, and I believe that at that point in time national Israel was temporarily set aside. I believe that at that time the Holy Spirit baptized all believers into the Church, which is Body.

After all, what was the Lord to do with the Jewish believers since He had concluded the nation of Israel as a whole in unbelief?:

"For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all" (Ro.11:30-32).

 

[dan p]

A dispensation is an entirely different thing than the Body of Christ.

Just because Paul was the first person to be told the truths on the Bodt of Christ does not mean that it could not have started before he was given those truths.
quote]


Hi , and what do you say , when in Col 1:25 and 26 , The Mystery which was " HID " in God ??

Col 2:9 , says that in Him dwelleth ALL THE FULNESS of the Godhead bodily , and that means the Body of Christ .

Where is the Body of Christ mentioned outside of Pauline letters ??

So , then do you believe that the 12 are in the Body ??

In Rom 16:25 , all are Stablished accorning to Paul's Gospel , and the preaching of Jesus Christ , according to the REVELATION of the Mystery !!

You can not separate the Pauline Gospel from the Dispensation of the Mystery , unless you say Paul preached 2 Gospels !! dan p

 

[JerryShugart]

Hi , and what do you say , when in Col 1:25 and 26 , The Mystery which was " HID " in God ??

Col 2:9 , says that in Him dwelleth ALL THE FULNESS of the Godhead bodily , and that means the Body of Christ .

Where is the Body of Christ mentioned outside of Pauline letters ??

Just because God chose Paul to be the one to reveal the truths of the Body of Christ does not mean that the others who wrote epistles were not also members of the Body of Christ.

So , then do you believe that the 12 are in the Body ??

I have already answred that. John was sure that he was going to be raptured just like those in the Body of Christ:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is" (1 Jn.3:2).

The leaders of the Berean Bible Society today have departed from Cornelius Stam's teaching about this and their blunder is easily exposed.

Paul Sadler is now the President of that organization and he writes:

"Since the Holy Spirit marks the beginning of the Body of Christ with the conversion of Paul, all those who have been saved from his conversion to the present have a 'heavenly hope'" ( Sadler, Exploring the Unsearchable Riches of Christ [Stephens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing, 1993], p.33).

According to Pastor Sadler only those saved from the conversion of Paul to the present time have a "heavenly hope" and belong to the Body of Christ. However, at one time Apollos was a believer "knowing only the baptism of John":

"And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John" (Acts 18:24-25).

But later, after Aquila and Priscilla had "expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly" (v.26) we see Paul saying that Apollos watered what he had planted and they are both "one":

"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one" (1 Cor.3:5-8).

Why would a so-called "kingdom saint" be watering what a Body saint had planted? That would make no sense. Apollos was watering what Paul had planted because both were members of the Body of Christ and both were ministering to those in the Body of Christ. Is in inconceivable that Apollos was not a member of the Body of Christ. Therefore Pastor Sadler's assertion that no one who was saved before the conversion of Paul became members of the Body of Chrtist is in error.

Now that I have anwered numerous of your questions please tell me what evidence you have that demonstrates that the Twelve were not in the Body of Christ.

Thanks!

 

[dan p]

And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John[/I]" (Acts 18:24-25).

But later, after Aquila and Priscilla had "expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly" (v.26) we see Paul saying that Apollos watered what he had planted and they are both "one":

Hi , and I see that we will disagree on when the Body of Christ began and You know where I am coming from and even that I have everybook that Stam and Baker ever wrote , I can not see the 12 being Part of the Body of Christ as I am Acts 9 and 12 out .

Rom 1:1 where APHORIZO/SEPARATED/LIMITED/BOUNDRIES , which is in the Perfect tense , LIMITED Paul to only preach the Gospel of God from his salvation to his death ,

APHORIZO is also in the Passive voice which means Christ put Paul into the ministry.

It is also PARTICIPLE and a correct translation is , " having been separated " ,

I realize that many Jews helped Paul and Apollos has the WAY explained to them , the Dispensation of the Mystery !!

I do not and can not accept you explanation of those that were " in Christ " before Paul .

There is no way that those in Judea could be in the Body of Christ when it YET NOT IN OPERATION .

 

[dan p]

Hi Jerry and I believe that also before I present my proof of why am 12 out , I also do not believe that the Body of Christ is the Bride of Christ and is easily fprove wrong .

Why the 12 are out ?

1 Cor 15:8 , I will just give a short outline .

#1 , More than 20 years ago , a brother in Christ , I believe came up with the solution , the 12 are OUT .

#2 , Robert C Brock has and article in his Journal of Pauline Dispensationalism and this journal of 2004 , titled , Hermeneutics 101 ,vol 16 , number 61 , or problem in the Acts 9 camp .

#3 , In 1 Cor 15:8 , who was the ONLY ONE BORN out of due time ?

#4 , It was not the 12 apostles , NOT !!

#5 , Paul was the ONLY ONE BORN out of due time , Yes !!

#6 , Yes , he was born APART from Israel's time schedule ,

#7 , Israel will be Born again at the end of the Tribulation .

#8 , Gal 1:15 is very Appropriate !!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have seen your name many times in TOL , and wanted to see what use believed , thats all .

In a PM I can give you a address so you can get a copy or maybe I can send you the article and it is fascinating , dan p

 

[JerryShugart]

Why the 12 are out ?

You never answered this verse:

"To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours" (1 Cor.1:2; NASB).

Cornelius Stam wrote the following commentary on 1 Corinthians 1:2:

"There are other evidences that the kingdom saints of Paul's day became members of the Body of Christ. In I Corinthians 1:2, Paul addresses his letter to the Corinthian church, 'with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs [those in every place] and ours [those with Paul].' And he says to 'all' these believers 'in every place': 'For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles' (I Cor. 12:13). How can this be made to exclude the Judean believers?" (Stam, Commentary on Galatians [Stevens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1998], p.198).

You never answered this verse that demonstrates that John was expecting to be changed into a glorious body like that of the lord Jesus' body at the rapture:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is" (1 Jn.3:2).

Also, when Paul spoke of others who were "in Christ" before he was what do you think that Paul was referring to when he used the term "in Christ"?

Thanks!

 

[dan p]

You never answered this verse:

"To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours" (1 Cor.1:2; NASB).

Cornelius Stam wrote the following commentary on 1 Corinthians 1:2:

"There are other evidences that the kingdom saints of Paul's day became members of the Body of Christ. In I Corinthians 1:2, Paul addresses his letter to the Corinthian church, 'with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs [those in every place] and ours [those with Paul].' And he says to 'all' these believers 'in every place': 'For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles' (I Cor. 12:13). How can this be made to exclude the Judean believers?" (Stam, Commentary on Galatians [Stevens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1998], p.198).

You never answered this verse that demonstrates that John was expecting to be changed into a glorious body like that of the lord Jesus' body at the rapture:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is" (1 Jn.3:2).

Also, when Paul spoke of others who were "in Christ" before he was what do you think that Paul was referring to when he used the term "in Christ"?

Thanks!

Hi and 1 jOHN 3:2 in Context is still the Law as verse 4 and John is part of the New Covenant writing as are Hebews , 1 and 2 Peter , 1 , 2 3 John , James , Jude and Revelation . As much as I like Stam he is dead wrong on the 12 being in the Body as 1 Cor 15:8 descibes and hope you will aquire that article from Robert C Brock .

Here is Brock's translation of 1 Cor 1:2 ;

To the Assembly of God being in Corinth , HAVING BEEN SANCTIFIED " in Christ " .

#1 , Having been sanctified , is in the Perfect tense , Passive voice and Participle .

#2 , That is why it should be translated " having been sanctified " .

#3 , The Perfect tense is talking about their Sanctification in time past and that Sanctification does Continue into the Present .

#4 , The Passive voice means that Christ did that action , Sanctification to them .

#5 , Can you say that those IN Judea were in the Body of Christ , since there is no verse for that premise ??

Can anyone say that those in Judea Sanctified as Paul describes those in 1 Cor 1:2 ?? NO, NO, NO .

Will anyone say that there were 2 different bodies , Judean and Gentile ?

Will anyone say that the 12 were part of the Body and yet sit on 12 thrones judging Israel in the Millennium ??

There are two subjects that Brock has Idenified in the Phrase " in Christ !

#1 , One is Docrtinial , and many subjects under this section are mentioned more than once and some can be considered as sub-catergories and these are ALL related to " in Christ .

And I will just write some of the 62 verse of being in Christ .

#1 , ACCEPTED , Eph 1:6
#2 , ACCESS , Eph3:12
#3 , ALIVE TO GOD , rOM 6:11 ; 1 Cor 15:22
#4 , ALL FULNESS DWELLS , Col 1:19 ; 2:9
#5, ALL TREASURES HID , Col 2:3
#6 BABES , 1 Cor 3:1
There are 56 more !!

Then there is the PRACTICAL APPLICATIONS of 49 .

#1 , ABOUND MORE , 1 Thess 4:1
#2 , APPROVED , rOM 16:10
#3 , ASLEEP , 1 Cor 15:18
#4 , BE STRONG , Eph 6:10 ; Phil 4:13 ; 2 Tim 2:1
#5 , BOASTING , 1 Cor 15:31
#6 , BOLDNESS , Eph 3:12

There are yet 43 more practical application . This is the most complete booklet on being " in Christ " that I have seen and one member of our assembly had a smaller one and that makes 2 ,

dan p

 

[JerryShugart]

Hi and 1 jOHN 3:2 in Context is still the Law as verse 4 and John is part of the New Covenant writing as are Hebews , 1 and 2 Peter , 1 , 2 3 John , James , Jude and Revelation .

Are you kidding? The entire book of Hebrews is a letter telling the Jewish believers to leave the law behind. That book surely cannot be for the time when the law will once again be in effect.

Let us look at the following verse again:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is" (1 Jn.3:2).

That is speaking of the same thing as here:

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (1 Cor.15:51-53).

Here are Peter's words were he is describing the same thing:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you" (1 Pet.1:3-4).

Peter is referring to the "incorruptile" body that the Christian will put on at the rapture. He says that it will not fade away. And in the following verse he makes it plain that the Christian will receive this incorruptible body when the Lord Jesus appears:

"And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away" (1 Pet.5:4).

This "crown of glory" refers the "glorious" body which the Christian will put on at the rapture, a body just like the Lord Jesus' "glorious" body:

"For our citizenship is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our lowly body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself" (Phil.3:20-21).

Here is Brock's translation of 1 Cor 1:2 ;

#5 , Can you say that those IN Judea were in the Body of Christ , since there is no verse for that premise ??

Yes, we can see that the epistles is not just addressed to some who call on the name of the Lord but instead "all":

"To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours" (1 Cor.1:2; NASB).

The epistle is addressed to "all" who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. That would include "all" the believers, including the Twelve. And here are words from the epistle that applies to them:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body...the Body of Christ" (1 Cor.12:13,17).

Will anyone say that the 12 were part of the Body and yet sit on 12 thrones judging Israel in the Millennium ??

Why not? Once Gentile believers are caught up to meet Him in the air then we will forever be with Him (1 Thess.4:17). That means that when He returns to the earth we will return with Him.

 

[dan p]

Are you kidding? The entire book of Hebrews is a letter telling the Jewish believers to leave the law behind. That book surely cannot be for the time when the law will once again be in effect.

Let us look at the following verse again:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is" (1 Jn.3:2).
.

Hi , and you believe that John also wrote about the DEPARTURE, or so-called Rapture as Paul wrote , You have to be kidding !!

Paul is the only writer that said the Law was set aside !!

Did Peter ? NO
Did john , NO
Did James , NO

DAN P

 

[JerryShugart]

Hi , and you believe that John also wrote about the DEPARTURE, or so-called Rapture as Paul wrote , You have to be kidding !!

You just ignored all the verses which demonstrate that Peter was indeed expecting to be raptured just like Paul was and at that time he expected to put on a glorious body just like the glorious body of the Lord Jesus:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is" (1 Jn.3:2).

If John was thinking that he will be like the Lord Jesus when He appears and that would be in an earthly body then he certainly would not say,"it doth not yet appear what we shall be."

That is because he had seen the Lord Jesus on earth and if he thought that he would be made like Him in an earthly body then he would have said, "we know what we shall be."

John knew that when the Lord appears then his destination after meeting Him in the air is heaven so he will put on a heavenly body becuase men in their flesh and blood bodies will not be able to enter the heavenly kingdom:

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor.15:49-50).

Paul is the only writer that said the Law was set aside !!

Did Peter ? NO

Of course he did. Earlier he had called the Law a "yoke" (Acts 15:10) but by the time when he wrote his first epistle he said:

"As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God" (1 Pet.2:16).

That practically mirrors Paul's words when he says that believers are set free from the law:

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage...For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another" (Gal.5:1,13).

Did john , NO

John, who wrote the following words, knew that His salvation was based entirely on his faith. The Lord Jesus told those who were under the law the following:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).

Did James , NO

Again, the law was referred to be the disciples as a "yoke" and here James is certainly not referring to the law:

"But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed" (James 2:25).

Of course James makes it known exactly how the Jew was saved and it is in exactly the same way that Gentiles are:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (James 1:18).

Here is Brock's translation of 1 Cor 1:2 ;

#5 , Can you say that those IN Judea were in the Body of Christ , since there is no verse for that premise ??

Yes, we can see that the epistles is not just addressed to some who call on the name of the Lord but instead "all":

"To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours" (1 Cor.1:2; NASB).

The epistle is addressed to "all" who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. That would include "all" the believers, including the Twelve. And here are words from the epistle that applies to them:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body...the Body of Christ" (1 Cor.12:13,17).