• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • Christian Forums is looking to bring on new moderators to the CF Staff Team! If you have been an active member of CF for at least three months with 200 posts during that time, you're eligible to apply! This is a great way to give back to CF and keep the forums running smoothly! If you're interested, you can submit your application here!

Romans 10:9-10: Romans' Road does NOT lead to salvation. Here's why.

scuba_steve83

One God Jesus Name
Jul 30, 2003
83
0
41
FL
✟193.00
2 Timothy 4:2 - Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 - For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 - And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Could it be that the “Romans’ Road” theology that Protestants and Trinitarian Pentecostals practice is heresy? An examination of Romans 10:9-10 is certainly in order. First and foremost, it is not my intention to diminish anyone’s relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. Real love is not only accepting someone for who they are or who they can be, but being bold enough to tell the truth. As you read, please have your Bible ready to look up referenced scriptures. Not doing could strongly reflect how you value the importance of God’s truths.

Why Romans 10:9-10 is not the plan of salvation:

1. Paul was writing to the Roman Christians who already were born-again persons. He was not explaining to unbelievers how to be born again. He knew he could briefly summarize the gospel’s message by referring to these two fundamental principles without being too vague or being misunderstood.

2. In the context, The Romans epistle explains that God’s rejection of Israel was due to Israel’s unbelief. For Israel to be saved, the fundamental issue was confession of and belief in Jesus. Paul did not confront the Jews over water baptism or the Holy Spirit baptism. Simple logic ought to tell you that the Jews had to resolve a more basic issue first: accepting Jesus as Messiah, Lord, and Savior. That’s why Paul wrote what he wrote in Romans 10:9-10! If they would only do this, all else would follow and then they shall be saved, providing they obey the gospel first preached at Jerusalem according to the doctrine in Acts 2:38. That’s the doctrine that delivered the Romans as Romans 6:17 explains.

3. Romans 10:9 says, “If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” Shalt be saved are the keywords here, meaning salvation is the near future providing if the believer goes on to repent, be baptized in Jesus’ name for the remission of sin, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost as Acts consistently tells it (Acts 2:38-41, 8:16-17, 10:44-48, 19:2-6). Keep in mind in those instances that those people already were believers, but not born of water and Spirit as of yet, which is necessary to enter into heaven (John 3:5). Remember Cornelius? He was a devout man that feared God, gave much alms, and always prayed. However, he was not saved! Jesus rewarded the diligently seeker, came to him as an angel, and told him to send men to Joppa to get Peter so he can tell Cornelius what he ought to do. (Acts 10:1-6). What he had to do was to be born again and he did (Acts 10:44-48)!

4. Romans 10:10 says, “For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.” This is where a lot of people get confused. The word unto in this scenario implies to be led to salvation, not actual righteousness or salvation itself. Furthermore, the word unto used in Romans 10:10 means eis in Greek. Eis literally means “for the purpose of.” To make this clear, Romans 10:10 could be restated like so: “For with the heart man believeth for the purpose of righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made for the purpose of salvation.” As you can see now, believing is for the purpose of righteousness, not righteousness itself. Likewise, confession is made for the purpose of salvation and not salvation itself.

Remember in point number two I made that Paul was talking about the Jews who had not yet accepted Jesus as Messiah. The issue at hand was first to have them to believe and confess that Jesus is indeed the Lord. How then can the majority of professing Christians claim to be born again? Colossians 2:8 may hold the answer, but let’s stay focused.

Am I implying you are not saved? No. The apostles’ doctrine provides the checklist that ought to tell you if you are. Have you repented? Have you been baptized (full-immersion) with the name of Jesus invoked over your baptism (see footnote #1)? Have you received the gift of the Holy Ghost (see footnote #2)? If so, you’re saved because the Word of God judges you so, not because I judged.

Have you real assurance of your salvation? Do you still feel there‘s more? Is there a whisper in your heart telling you something is not there that needs to be? Do you object to what scripture says about original apostolic salvation? I can imagine some concerns you may have, which I have provided answers for in the footnotes that immediately follow the closing of this letter. If you would like, let us have a bible study in person or through e-mail. Acts 2:39 tells us the Holy Ghost is a promise for you and to your children. Will you accept God’s promise?

God bless you,
Stephen



Footnote #1 - Invoking “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (Matt. 28:19) is not a formula Jesus gave for us to baptize people in, but rather is a teaching that the one name He wanted us to be baptized in reveals the identity of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. To make this more clear, if not already, the parallel account of the Great Commission given in Luke 24 can explain. Verse 47 in Luke 24 shows us that Jesus taught His apostles that remission of sins should be preached in His name: Jesus’ name! If you recall, Peter (with the other apostles’ with him) preached that remission of sins is given through baptism in the only name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved ... JESUS (Acts 2:38, 4:12)! “Only were they baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus (Acts 8:16)”, Peter “commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord (Acts 10:48),” John the Baptist’s disciples “were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus (Acts 19:5),” the Roman Christians “were baptized into Jesus Christ (Romans 6:3),” Ananias told Paul to “be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord (Acts 22:16),” and Paul told the Galatians “for as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ (Galatians 3:27).” All in all, invoking “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” is not a valid baptism and one must be rebaptized in the only saving name (Acts 4:12) for true biblical salvation. Remember, baptism also saves us (1 Peter 3:21). It’s not only a public confession of our repentance, but it is for the remission (or forgiveness) of sins (Acts 2:38, 22:16). That is quite essential, don’t you think? If you are curious to know, the Roman Catholic Church is responsible for changing the baptismal formula to what Matt 28:19 says and for trinitarian theology altogether.

Footnote #2 - One does not speak with other tongues to get the Holy Ghost. One needs to be filled with the Holy Ghost as part of their salvation. Once the Holy Ghost fills the believer, immediately then does the initial evidence of receiving the Spirit rebirth occurs: the Spirit gives the believer utterance to speak with other tongues. That is the only initial evidence the Bible gives for people who received the Holy Ghost. The 120 believers in Acts 2:4 spoke with tongues, so did Cornelius (Acts 10:46), and so did John the Baptist’s disciples (Acts 19:6). Peter knew Cornelius and company received the Holy Ghost because “for they heard them speak with tongues (Acts 10:46).” The Samaritans received the Holy Ghost in Acts 8:17. Simon the Sorcerer “saw that through on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given (Acts 8:18).” What did Simon see? He had seen some evidence apparently. As the other instances in Acts show, the visible evidence of the Holy Ghost baptism is speaking with other tongues. Jesus says His believers shall speak with new tongues (Mark 16:17), not maybe or just a few. This tongue is the sign or evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost.. This tongue is not the gift of tongues as Paul speaks of 1 Corinthians 12:10,30, nor does one receive the gift of tongues when receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. The gift of tongues is a gift from the Holy Spirit that God may or may not give you after you receive the Holy Ghost. The gift of tongues is always to be interpreted for edification of the church. No interpreter was present or needed when someone received the Holy Spirit in scripture, proving that it is not the gift of tongues that was poured out. 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 tells us tongues will fail when the perfect comes, but thankfully the Lord has not returned yet, so you can rest assure knowing the experience is for you, regardless of nay-sayers.

Footnote #3 - It’s no coincidence the apostles’ doctrine covers both repentance and the need to be born again of water and Spirit. No where does scripture teach that people were saved first with believing and confession alone, then the Holy Ghost and baptism as optional. No where does scripture show one is saved and then the Spirit and baptism are also part of “continuing salvation”. It’s either you’re saved or you aren’t. The apostles’ doctrine is the keys to the kingdom of heaven Jesus gave Peter to preach in Matthew 16:19. In other words, Jesus gave Peter the authority to tell people how to go to heaven. Peter did just that. After receiving the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:4, Peter preached to the Jews who crucified Jesus. The Jews were pricked in their heart according to Acts 2:37 as a result of the sermon. Were they saved because they finally accepted Jesus as Lord? No. They asked what they should do. Peter told them what to do in Acts 2:38. Acts 2:41 tells us they gladly received his word and that 3,000 souls were added unto them that same day. They continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine according to Acts 2:42 and the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved (or “those who were being saved” as NIV tells it).

Footnote #4 - Speaking of the NIV, that version of the Bible is alright, but it’s translation of Romans 10:9-10 is misleading. It tells the reader he or she is saved after confession, when in fact the original Greek writings used eis, which means “for the purpose of” as discussed earlier.
 

ReUsAbLePhEoNiX

Liberated from SinComplex
Jun 24, 2003
2,524
80
52
Earth, MilkyWay Galaxy
Visit site
✟18,062.00
Faith
Taoist
Maybe I misread your post ( i hope so ) but your basically saying that baptism ( fully dunked, not sprinkled) Is the determining factor if one goes to heaven or hell. If that is true God sure has a wicked sense of humour, dont you think so?
Really think about it. Its comical I tell you. So all these non baptised Christians, spend their lives devoted to christianity, yet they go to hell with all the non beleivers because they didnt get submersed in a tub full of H2O. I can only imagine the reasons to justify this
1. Well they were never real christians to begin with.
really this is what you think?
You non baptised christians who are reading this, doesnt this offend you a little, for another person to say your going to go to hell because you were never a True Christian
 
Upvote 0

scuba_steve83

One God Jesus Name
Jul 30, 2003
83
0
41
FL
✟193.00
ReUsAbLePhEoNiX,

Praise the Lord. Scripture will speak for me here.

John 12:48 - He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 - In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ



Baptism is for the remissions of sins and is to be done in Jesus' name (Acts 2:38).


Questions?


In His truth,
Stephen
 
Upvote 0

SUNSTONE

Christian Warrior
Sep 2, 2002
8,785
213
50
Cocoa Village
Visit site
✟25,700.00
Faith
Non-Denom
The key word in Romans is "if", because it is future tense, just like "shalt" is.

2 Tim verse is a common set up for ones opinion.
All you can get out of that, is that some will stray away from the truth, and listen to fables.

I could use that verse myself, and mix in some Galations....

Peter (Cephas) Opposed by Paul

11 But when (29) Cephas came to (30) Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
12 For prior to the coming of certain men from (31) James, he used to (32) eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, (33) fearing the party of the circumcision.
13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even (34) Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.
14 But when I saw that they (35) were not straightforward about (36) the truth of the gospel, I said to (37) Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, (38) live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?
15 "We are (39) Jews by nature and not (40) sinners from among the Gentiles;
16 nevertheless knowing that (41) a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by (42) faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since (43) by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
17 "But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found (44) sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? (45) May it never be!
18 "For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I (46) prove myself to be a transgressor.
19 "For through the Law I (47) died to the Law, so that I might live to God.
20 "I have been (48) crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but (49) Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in (50) the Son of God, who (51) loved me and (52) gave Himself up for me.
21 "I do not nullify the grace of God, for (53) if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."



Have you repented of your sins? Do you still sin?
 
Upvote 0

Follower of Christ

Literal 6 Day Creationist<br />''An Evening and a
Mar 12, 2003
7,049
103
59
✟7,754.00
Faith
Christian
scuba_steve83 said:
Also, thought I made perfectly valid points in my top post in the thread, no one has yet to comment on any given reasons to my objection of Romans 10:9-10 as the plan of salvation. Hmm...

Actually, there are other passages that agree in this plan of salvation.

I tired of the tongues issue a few years back, so I dont even bother to get into it anymore.

I really cant tell what youre motivation is here and until I figure that out I wont respond anyway.
 
Upvote 0

ReUsAbLePhEoNiX

Liberated from SinComplex
Jun 24, 2003
2,524
80
52
Earth, MilkyWay Galaxy
Visit site
✟18,062.00
Faith
Taoist
scuba_steve83 said:
ReUsAbLePhEoNiX,

Praise the Lord. Scripture will speak for me here.

John 12:48 - He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 - In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ



Baptism is for the remissions of sins and is to be done in Jesus' name (Acts 2:38).


Questions?


In His truth,
Stephen
No questions, I agree with FOC, this will be pointless. SCUBASTEVE Quoting bible verses that talk of the revenge and Judgement (against the people SCUBASTEVE disagrees with, of course.) . If this is going to be your typical response STEVE. Forget it.
 
Upvote 0

Follower of Christ

Literal 6 Day Creationist<br />''An Evening and a
Mar 12, 2003
7,049
103
59
✟7,754.00
Faith
Christian
I think that a lot of folks try to read too much into the text.

Things like tongues has its place as one the day of Pentecost.

In OT times the average, everyday Jewish joe didnt have access to the Holy Spirit like believers today do.
only the preists and prophets and folks like David did.
So in Joel it talks about how in the last days (last days simply being the enire age of grace) God would pour out His Spirit on ALL flesh instead of just the few.

Now we ALL can have access directly to the Father instead of having to go thru the priest.

So Penetecost was the Day Jesus had told about that the Councilor (Holy Spirit) would come.
This was Gods ''pouring out'' of His Spirit.
Baptising the world, so to speak.

So the Jews were always requiring a sign.
God gave them signs that they shouldnt have been able to deny. He gave them Jesus' miracles and then on Pentecost, He gave them the whole thing with the tongues of fire and men speaking in many languages.

''It has been written in the Law, "By other languages" and "by other lips" "I will speak to this people," "and even so they will not hear" Me, says the Lord. Isa. 28:11, 12
(1Co 14:21)

But even with that,they still wouldnt listen.


Afterward, some folks started wanting the gifts (Corinthians) more than Christ it seemed.

The Corinthian church was seemingly out of control.

''Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
(1Co 14:22-23)

They were so focused on tongues that Paul had to jump on them prety badly about it.

Jump ahead 1800 years or so and around the turn of the 1900s the whole thing seems to have gotten out of control again.


Romans is a type of ''guide'' to the Gentiles.
It gives everything needed for salvation and even quite a bit beyond that.
Very odd that tongues isnt mentioned as ''required'' to the Roman church.
Whats also odd, is that Paul never elevates tongues and even down plays tongues as the ''least'' of the gifts.

Anyone wanting to say that tongues is ''required'' for salvation, I challenge you to find ONE verse that says it.

Pentecost was necessary as a sign to the Jews.

Even when the gentiles spoke in tongues it seems to have had the purpose of being a sign.
Peter the ''racist'' seems to have had a change of heart when he saw the gentiles speaking as well.

''And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
(Act 10:45-47)


Tongues were all part of prophecy and the plan.
It is a gift of the Spirit and NOT to be magnified over any other gift.
 
Upvote 0
Is water baptism a part of the gospel?

Paul says, "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." (1 Corinthians 1:17)

He also tells us what the gospel is in chpt. 15:3-4

The Bible says we receive forgiveness of sins by the blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, doesn't it !?

Water can't even wash my ole greasy dirty hands much less my dirty,rotten sins!
 
Upvote 0

Follower of Christ

Literal 6 Day Creationist<br />''An Evening and a
Mar 12, 2003
7,049
103
59
✟7,754.00
Faith
Christian
Billy Boy said:
Is water baptism a part of the gospel?

Paul says, "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." (1 Corinthians 1:17)

He also tells us what the gospel is in chpt. 15:3-4

The Bible says we receive forgiveness of sins by the blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, doesn't it !?

Water can't even wash my ole greasy dirty hands much less my dirty,rotten sins!

Hmmmm.

Do I know you? :)

I think Paul was just saying that HE wasnt sent to baptise, not that folks shouldnt be baptised
 
Upvote 0
FOC

I believe Paul was saying that baptism isn't part of the gospel. I do believe we should be baptized after we've accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. I don't trust in water baptism for salvation or for the forgiveness of sin. I trust in Jesus Christ and what He has done! I have been baptized but not for these reasons.
 
Upvote 0

Follower of Christ

Literal 6 Day Creationist<br />''An Evening and a
Mar 12, 2003
7,049
103
59
✟7,754.00
Faith
Christian
Billy Boy said:
FOC

I believe Paul was saying that baptism isn't part of the gospel. I do believe we should be baptized after we've accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. I don't trust in water baptism for salvation or for the forgiveness of sin. I trust in Jesus Christ and what He has done! I have been baptized but not for these reasons.



''But I say this, that each of you says, I am of Paul, and I of Apollos, and I of Cephas, and I of Christ. Has Christ been divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized into the name of Paul?
(1Co 1:12-13)

''I give thanks to God that I did not baptize any one of you, except Crispus and Gaius, that not anyone should say that you were baptized in my name. And I also baptized the house of Stephanas. For the rest, I do not know if I baptized any other . For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to announce the gospel, not in wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ be made of no effect.
(1Co 1:14-17)


Dont know, but it sounds like there was a lot of baptising going on.
Paul just seems to be saying that becuase of the division being caused with the Corinthians that he was glad that he hadnt baptised.
And that he wasnt called to baptise, but to preach the gospel.
It seems that the baptising was left to others for the most part.
 
Upvote 0

HelenM

[affix label here]
Aug 29, 2002
227
2
Illinois
Visit site
✟382.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Follower of Christ said:
HelenM

check footnote #2 in the OP.

Tongues is usually the larger issue so I did that one first.
Post 15 is directed towards baptism.

Ok, I see that now in footnote #2.

I think note #3 and footnote #3 of the OP say that water baptism is necessary for salvation.

Helen
 
Upvote 0

Follower of Christ

Literal 6 Day Creationist<br />''An Evening and a
Mar 12, 2003
7,049
103
59
✟7,754.00
Faith
Christian
Baptism is taught for the most part. Though I cant find anywhere that states it is an absolute requirement for salvation .
Tongues is not only NOT taught, but Paul really had to jump the Corinthians for pushing it.

Seems some folks spend far too much time reading between the lines instead of just reading what Paul and others wrote.
 
Upvote 0