Question re: Mennonite Churches

[IndiaInk]

I have a question. My husband & I have attended this Mennonite Church - (Conservative Conference) & we're thinking of going back. 99% of the people there dress very casual, no hats. It's very contemporary in nature. Do you think we'll be accepted because we weren't brought up Mennonite? This is what's holding us back. I love the pastor & his sermons are very "anointed". But do Mennonites accept outsiders even though this is a very contemporary bunch of people. Some even wear makeup.

 

[brother daniel]

I have a question. My husband & I have attended this Mennonite Church - (Conservative Conference) & we're thinking of going back. 99% of the people there dress very casual, no hats. It's very contemporary in nature. Do you think we'll be accepted because we weren't brought up Mennonite? This is what's holding us back. I love the pastor & his sermons are very "anointed". But do Mennonites accept outsiders even though this is a very contemporary bunch of people. Some even wear makeup.

My experance with modern Mennonites is they are very libral and excepting.

With love in Christ
brother daniel

 

[Danfrey]

I have attended many varying degrees of Mennonite Churches. Every one of them was very accepting of me. The only issue I had was the fact that I was remarried. This is an issue in most concervative Mennonite churches.

If you are speaking of the Conservative Mennonite Conference (CMC), you will find a wide range of beliefs within their circles. You may find the Rosedale Bible College website interesting as it is the college that is run by the conference.

We have been attending CMC churches in our area for a couple of months and have found them to be very welcoming. If you are looking for a traditional Mennonite setting as most newcomers imagine it, you may be a bit disappointed depending on the congregation. CMC would be at the more liberal end of "Conservative Mennonite" churches or the more conservative end of "Liberal Mennonite" churches. Now I imagine I have confused anyone who hasn't spent much time around various Mennonite churches. If you would like more details, I would be glad to share them and my personal experiences visiting the various churches.

 

[ACADEMIC]

Sounds to me like you may have found yourself a good community of believers.

 

[oliveplants]

The only issue I had was the fact that I was remarried. This is an issue in most concervative Mennonite churches.

I wondered about this when you mentioned your daughter going to public school, but didn't want to ask. My DH is also remarried (to me!) - and this is an area where we have problems with most mennonites. SO not all?

 

[ZiSunka]

I have yet to attend a mennonite church that wasn't accepting of new people. They tend to be very open in Christian fellowship.

 

[Danfrey]

I wondered about this when you mentioned your daughter going to public school, but didn't want to ask. My DH is also remarried (to me!) - and this is an area where we have problems with most mennonites. SO not all?

Olive,

This is a very difficult situation for a couple seeking fellowship amongst concervative Mennonites. The only group that I am aware of that is willing to accept remarried couples is the Holdeman Mennonites. You will hear alot of negative about them because they hold to a doctrine of the "One True Church". Basically that means they believe they are the one authentic church in modern times. They don't believe everyone outside their church is unsaved, just unaware of the true church. Candice and I were members at the time of her death, but within months of being accepted into membership I started having second thoughts about the "True Church" doctrine and some other insignificant cultural issues.

The best advice I would have for someone in a remarried state is to seek out other kingdom christians willing to fellowship in a home church setting or be content being the concervative family in a more modern Mennonite church.

You have my prayers and sympathies. This can be a very frustrating situation. Candice and I struggled more with the remarriage issue than any thing else involving our conversion. We could not bring ourselves to seperate as we felt that God had called us while in the state we were in. This being said, I am not an advocate for divorce and remarriage. Candice and I made the commitment to God that if anything happened to one of us that the other would remain unmarried. This is why I am committed to remain unmarried.

I believe that the CMC (Conservative Mennonite Conference) holds a view that remarriage is outside the will of God, but they do allow remarried people into membership. Thier website does a better job of explaining it than I can. Basically they believe it can be forgiven, but should not happen once a person accepts Christ. (This is in my own words, so don't quote me please).

Anyway. Blessings to you and your husband as you serve God together. May he continue to lead and guide you.

 

[ACADEMIC]

Let's make sure things are very clear.

I very seriously doubt that they have a problem with re-marriage after widowhood, since Paul specifically permitted that and even recommended it for younger widows.

The problem some have is with remarriage after divorce, which some view as a living within perpetual adultery, irrespective of circumstances (a position I disagree with, BTW, but that is for another thread).

 

[ZiSunka]

I am divorce (it was 20 years last week), and I feared being rejected by my mennonite church family, but I found that once they know the reason for the divorce, they are usually fine with it.

I am divorced because my ex-husband was conintually unfaithful and had a child with another woman. The chuch determined that this would be an allowable reason under the scriptures in Matthew, which allow for divorce in cases of adultery. Also, I was divorced long before I accepted Christ as my savior and it was my husband who chose to leave the marriage by committing adultery repeatedly in the first place. Also, I have never reamarried.

But I know some other groups that strongly resist understanding this text and claim that divorce was only legal if the adultery took place in the betrothal period. Apparently there was some elderly anabaptist whose daughter was unfaithful to her husband and his son-in-law divorced her and remarried, and used the Matthew passage to indicate his right to do that. The elderly pastor saw the devastation that his daughter and grandchildren lived in without the father in the home and preached that "marriage" means "betrothal" and tossed the errant son-in-law out of the church. Other groups have copied this erroneous information. He could have said that the passage means a man may have grounds for divorce, but Anabaptists tend to choose the most restrictive interpretation.

Talk to the pastor at the church you are going to. Each congregation has it's own standards. If you are divorced and remarried, you may not be able to join, but you will still be welcome to participate in worship and most church activities. The first menno church I went to had about 100 regular attenders, and only about 30 actual members.

 

[Danfrey]

Academic,

You are correct as far as I have seen in most of the Mennonite churches I have attended. None of them forbid remarriage in the case of widowhood. I forget that not everyone on here is familiar with the lingo. Most I know assume when you say remarriage you are speaking of a situation after divorce. The reason I remain unmarried is the two divorces prior to marrying Candice.

Ashes,

I have also heard the betrothal explaination and have a hard time accepting it. Daniel Kaufman writes of it in Bible doctrines which as you probably know is held in high esteem by most conservative Mennonites. I am not sure exactly where I fall on the Matt 19:9 passage because the writings of the early church opposed remarriage. Again, this is not to critisize anyones choices in this matter. There is just enough doubt in my mind that I feel lead to remain unmarried.

Thank you both for the input. I appoligize for hijacking the thread in a different direction.

 

[ZiSunka]

Ashes,

I have also heard the betrothal explaination and have a hard time accepting it. Daniel Kaufman writes of it in Bible doctrines which as you probably know is held in high esteem by most conservative Mennonites. I am not sure exactly where I fall on the Matt 19:9 passage because the writings of the early church opposed remarriage. Again, this is not to critisize anyones choices in this matter. There is just enough doubt in my mind that I feel lead to remain unmarried.

I wouldn't dream of trying to sway anyone one way or another on the subject. Through my studies, I discovered that early editions of Kaufman's teachings don't contain the supposed belief that divorce was only for the betrothed not the married in cases of adultery. It is only later editions that have that.

Also, as is typical for the writers of the very restrictive anabaptist doctrines, he was a convert later in life, coming out of a liberal tradition. Generally, these men created doctrine that borders on legalism, such as Ron Border's writings of today. Ron, as you know, converted to Amish in his 30's, coming out of a godless background of all sorts of immorality, and joined the Amish because he needed the structure and rules that they live by. Kaufman's story is very similar.

Before Kaufman's book in 1898, traditional anabaptist doctrine allowed for divorce in cases of repeated and unrepented adultery (remember, there were no treatments for STDs back then, if a man whored around, his wife was going to get the disease, too, which would harm the family, so divorce and the threat of divorce was a practical method of controlling immorality) and in cases of divorce before coming to faith in Christ.

So, in Anabaptist history and doctrine, the idea that divorce was forbidden under every circumstance is a johnny-come-lately doctrine.

 

[ZiSunka]

By the way, during Kaufman's lifetime, his teachings were not accepted by the conservative churches because they contradicted the historical doctrine and teachings of the anabaptist churches. It wasn't until the 1950s that his teachings became accepted through the work of convert writers who heavily quoted Kaufman without citation in their own writings.

 

[ZiSunka]

One interesting thing I just found out about Kaufman and his writings, he wrote his most famous book on Bible doctrines just 8 years after he converted and did it without any Bible training or input from any established mennonite Bible scholars or elders. He created a lot of controversy with his later editions that claimed that betrothal and marriage were synonymous in the Matthew passage, because that teaching defied 400 years of anabaptist teaching and 1900 years of Bible scholarship.

Prior to the the second 1898 edition of that book, there were no references or texts that purported that divorce was allowed only during the betrothal period. Kaufman came up with this teaching by observing that Matthew used the word "put away" in telling the story of Jesus's birth, and the same word was used in Jesus's condemnation of groundless divorce, making the leap to the concept that marriage and betrothal were one in the same.

It's interesting that even Jewish writings contemporary to Jesus's day did not equate betrothal and marriage. A man could get out of a betrothal just by announcing to the families that he was breaking the engagement, but in a divorce, the wife had to establish that a valid marriage had taken place, complete with producing the proof that she "knew" him in the Biblical sense. Unless there was proof of marriage (including witnesses to the exchange of vows), the wife was considered a concubine and she had no rights to support or inheritance for the children of the union. There was no such thing as common law marriage in Jesus's day, so all divorces had to be dissolving established and completed marriages.

 

[ACADEMIC]

I have been niether divorced nor widowed but feel that Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage in the Bible by Jay Adams presents the topic very soundly.

 

[oliveplants]

Sorry to hijack so thouroughly, but since we are here...

I also believe divorce is BAD and remarriage is no walk in the park, but Matthew gave the exception, as did Paul (unbelieving spouse), and so each case ought to be decided individually. Just some of the more "conservative" writings I've seen (Lamp and Light, and Charity) say that any remarriage is adultery and should be dissolved, regardless of children or circumstances. So DH and I could never go to a church that really thought we were living in sin. We don't have a problem with a church not allowing certian ministries to DH; that's their decision.

So to clarify our situation, DH was married; she was repeatedly unfaithful, then sued for divorce. 2 years later DH gave his life to Christ, then we met and married. So really, he meets all 3 requirements; I don't worry about my salvation. (I was 18 and totally single when we met).

Thanks for your patience on the topic.

 

[CelticRose]

We must remember the NT teachings on divorce were directed at believers. Once we come to Christ our whole attitude and life should change and if both partners are practising Christians there should be no need for divorce. What non-believers do is another issue.

 

[ZiSunka]

Just some of the more "conservative" writings I've seen (Lamp and Light, and Charity) say that any remarriage is adultery and should be dissolved, regardless of children or circumstances.

I've never seen anything that restrictive before!

Even the Amish believe that if a person was married and divorced before they join the church, that shouldn't be held against them. But once a person joins the church and marries, they can be divorced, but never never marry again, unless their ex-spouse dies.

 

[Danfrey]

Outside of the Holdeman church, the idea that any remarriage after divorce is adultery is what I have found in most independent conservative Anabaptist churches. I was unaware that the Amish held to the divorce before conversion being a different situation. I am glad to hear it though.

Your research on Kaufman is very interesting. I didn't know much about him other than I didn't agree with his theory. I knew from the Martyr's Mirror that the early Anabaptists allowed remarriage for the innocent spouse in the case of adultery.

I think the key here is that each situation is different. I don't envy those who have to make decisions regarding these situations. They must be handled with much prayer and compassion. This is one area that I appreciated the more modern Mennonite approach to the issue. Which ironically is more traditional than the conservative Mennonite approach. I hope that statement makes more sense than how it sounds.

Olive, may God continue to bless you in your marriage. Even though Candice and I were in remarried state, I do not fear for her salvation. I know that we serve a God that is very gracious.

 

[ZiSunka]

I was unaware that the Amish held to the divorce before conversion being a different situation. I am glad to hear it though.

They consider whatever someone does in the rumspringa period to be immaterial once they join the church. A person who marries and divorces during that period is eligible to marry again, as long as the spouse was not a church member at the time (and they don't allow a member to marry a non-member, so it rarely happens).

It's sort of like, whatever happens in rumspringa stays in rumspringa!

This is one area that I appreciated the more modern Mennonite approach to the issue. Which ironically is more traditional than the conservative Mennonite approach. I hope that statement makes more sense than how it sounds.

Weird isn't it?

But in fact, the Amish broke away from the mennonites because they wanted to have more strucuture in their churches, so pretty much every tradition and teaching they have is more recent than mennonite tradition and teachings.

 

[MasonDixonDarlin]

I've never seen anything that restrictive before!

Even the Amish believe that if a person was married and divorced before they join the church, that shouldn't be held against them. But once a person joins the church and marries, they can be divorced, but never never marry again, unless their ex-spouse dies.

Hi all, I'm new (actually, I found these posts by searching the web for "Mennonites and re-marriage") and I'm wondering if this means that if you're divorced before joining the church does that mean you can be re-married by the church after you join? And, does that go for the beachy amish also?
I've wasn't raised Amish or Mennonite but was looking to join a conserative Mennonite church. I've visited some of the churches in my area but they all seem pretty liberal. The next county over (Lancaster, PA) is filled with more conservative churches (Mennonite, Beachy Amish, Amish). I know that I can attend these churches, and possibly even join as a divorced person but the problem comes when I mention a desire to be re-married (not to my ex-spouse). One of the things that draws me to these more conservative churches is their outlook on the seriousness of marriage and the fact that they so very rarely divorce but my desire to have a second chance at marriage (and have a family, my ex-husband and I didn't have children) is what they strongly oppose.
I hope that all made sense, I started to ramble!