Professional Poker players

[highflyer]

This is a tough and complicated question with no easy answers. I know because I have asked lots of Christians (such as those at gotquestions.org) and got different, complicated answers. Essentially, it breaks down into two questions, about poker playing and wealth, of which I'll focus on the first for now.

Is earning a living playing poker morally acceptable?

If you have no firm opinion I'll give some arguments for either side. I started playing, then quit, and now play again, and each time because I had weighed the pros and cons - so even I am divided.

Pro:
- It never says that gambling is wrong at any point in the Bible. It does say that wasting money, getting money dishonestly or loving money is wrong. However, none of these are necessarily inherent to playing poker, they instead concern the money you get if you win.

- It's a good living, which enables me to give lots of money to charity I would never have before. I mean like $10,000 a month for me, just playing casually and for the top pros $100,000+ a month. If I worked full time at poker I could give hundreds of thousands to charity that I couldn't if I quit.

- I play online, so I avoid the sinful environment of a casino. I never play any of the gambling games like roulette or blackjack and wouldn't touch them with a bargepole. I am also courteous and friendly in the chatbox and take time to educate my opponents occasionally.

Cons:
- Even if I am not losing money gambling other people are. I would say there is a base of about 10% at the lower limits of gamblers who are essentially giving their money away. However, I make the analogy with a landlord, who sells alcohol and gets a fair proportion of his income from drunkards. As long as he isn't goading them or encouraging them to drink more, is his still not a legitimate business? Therefore if I do unhappily derive some of my winnings from these players, must that force me to stop?

- The money is mind-blowing, and therefore can induce the love of money etc. But this is a seperate question and deals with being rich.

- It is not the most selfless profession. Unlike being a doctor you are not providing your 'customers' with a service, except for excitement and a challenging, enjoyable game. However, I reckon most people who aren't policemen, doctors or charity workers have moments where they get disillusioned with their job for not having a more tangible benefit to society. As long as I intend to share my money as the Bible advocates, this shouldn't necessarily be a prohibitive factor.


I bet you are still undecided (excuse the pun). There are anecdotes I could throw at you on both sides too. There are pastors who think nothing of a game of poker for small amounts of money. So it's ok? There are sad-case stories of players losing their bankroll and begging players at high-limits to lend them $100. So it's not ok? Barack Obama is said to have regularly participated in real-money poker games and is still said to call himself a good player. So it's ok? You get my problem.

I could draw you further into my labyrinth of arguments and counter-arguments but for brevity I won't. My position currently is that making money at poker is an opportunity for me but also one that comes with a lot of temptations I need to navigate. So there you have it.

Feel free to raise as many points as you want, and let them be as complicated or concise and you wish.

 

[Elijah2]

Have a read of these few sites:

The Christian and Gambling

The Christian and Gambling. [Back to index]. Contents What is Gambling ? What Motivates People to Gamble ? The Sad Results of Gambling ...
www.rpc.org/morals/gambling.htm - 42k - Cached - Similar pages

Gambling and Christianity: Is Gambling a Sin? is Christianity a ...

Is gambling a sin for Christians? There's a lot of debate about this question in Christian circles, and not all Christians agree on whether there is ...
atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/christian/blxtn_gamblingsin.htm - 37k - Cached - Similar pages

Christians and Gambling - Should Christians be involved with ...

Discussion on the Biblical guidelines relating to gambling.
www.christiananswers.net/q-acb/acb-g001.html - 8k - Cached - Similar pages

Gambling: A Biblical Perspective on Gambling (Official A/G ...

Christian responsibility transcends all other responsibility, and for the Christian, gambling is wrong. It is a total disregard of the principle of ...
www.ag.org/top/Beliefs/Position_Papers/pp_4186_gambling.cfm - 41k - Cached - Similar pages

Gambling with My Life - Today's Christian

Even though I was a Christian, I didn't realize gambling was wrong. I'd never heard a sermon preached against it, other than a few words by a former ...
www.christianitytoday.com/tc/7r4/7r4069.html - 91k - Cached - Similar pages

Wanna Bet? A Christian View On Gambling

If you feel, as most Christians do, that gambling is wrong in principle, what will you do? Is all gambling proscribed for a Christian? ...
202.6.52.14/articles/679.htm - 35k - Cached - Similar pages

A Study on Gambling (Introduction) ELCA

Unlike adultery, which Holy Scripture clearly forbids, the Bible does not speak directly to gambling. Christian analysis and discussion of gambling will be ...
www.elca.org/socialstatements/economiclife/gambling/ - 22k - Cached - Similar pages

 

[quitespirit]

Hello
I can see your dilemma, the bible does not address gambling. If it isn't spoken to-you have freedom. Since you answer to your own master I wouldn't want to condone something your conscience is unsettled with.OTOH "...why should my freedom be judged my another's conscience?" 1 Cor 10:29

However, is online gambling legal? That would be the deciding factor for me if it is indeed illegal. A quick search shows some strong evidance that this is unlawful with few acceptions(Internet Gambling Prohibition Act, 2006). I would seek to answer this first. People go to jail for this apparently.

If you find that your gamblimg is legit here is the next question:
What do YOU think God is asking of YOU in this?
Other people can have some slant on a topic that is helpful, but ultimately we are held accountable to our own conscience.

Good luck seeking truth!

 

[highflyer]

OK, I have read all of those articles and I like their variety, ranging from individuals experiences to national statistics. However, I would have appreciated some sort of comment or opinion from you, rather a stack of links. A lot of those sites are contradictory, for example the first is adamant that gambling is a sin whereas the last is adamant that there is no Scriptural support to call it a sin. In one a churchgoer was cast out for keeping his lottery winnings, in another it talks about raffles and bingoes promoted by churches.

Also, professional poker sidesteps some of the warnings involved in a lot of these articles. Non-poker players don't understand that good pros win money consistently. Luck only determines how much, it would be a very unlucky pro who went even a month without being in the black.

The very issues brought up, but not resolved, by these articles, are what I want to discuss. To what degree is the poker player responsible for the gamblers who make up a proportion of his winnings. To what degree is a good cook responsible for a glutton. To what degree is a barman responsible for a drunkard. How rich is too rich? What proportion of winnings should go to charity, 10% or 100%.

Hopefully we can talk through some of these things and find out what we really believe, and see what to do.

 

[highflyer]

Thank you quitespirit, for your response.

Online poker is absolutely legal and I would not do anything illegal. There was an Internet Gambling Prohibition Act in America that stopped some American sites from hosting games like poker, but it is still completely legal. There are hundreds of thousands of players playing perfectly legal poker right now online in America and across the world.

I ask myself the question of what God is asking me to do with poker a lot. Sometimes I vary from thinking it's a job so I should keep most of the winnings, other times I get so shell-shocked by the verses about being rich I am determined to give it all away (maybe $200,000 depending on how much I play over the last years of my uni) to charity.

My big question now is not how much to give away but is earning it in the first place acceptable.

Thanks again for your time.

 

[quitespirit]

Are you living in the US (gambling in the US)?
I am thinking not, but if you are can you referance a reputable source of Americans being allowed to gamble online? Sometimes sincere christians (myself at times) avoid fiding out facts to hold onto choices that are not favorable to change- like not seeking to know the laws on file sharingfor example. I am not sure how much of a freedom 'ignorance is bliss' really is (not refering to you, but in general now) when a person isn't sure if they are acting lawfully. Legally ignorance of the law is not a defense. Anywho....assuming you are not in the US:

1-We are not to give under compulsion, but to give what we feel in good conscience between us and God is best. We are not under the OT law so we have freedom here (I know some disagree, and they are free to tithe! Isn't freedom great?)

2- If I was to have gambling winnings of 10,000 a month I would make a budget and go from there. In that budget you could set your goals with God as your first priority, but be orderly and wise at the same time.

3- I would also seek counsel of a mature member of my church to run my thinking by them for any holes in my plan that I may have missed. Lets face it, there are 100 different christians here who will tell you 100 different things. We all have different backgrounds, convictions and maturity levels. I would find a more reliable source.

4- Ask God for guidance, and not proceed with a faultering conscience.

Romans 14:23 But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

So a new motto for conscience issues, in honor of my old food service days: "When in doubt (of a choice), through it out!"

 

[highflyer]

I am living in the UK, where it is legal, but even if I was living in the US, it is legal. http://pokerworks.com/article-665.html was the first article on google I saw, but surely I don't need more. It's hard not to be slightly offput by you not believing me when I said I wasn't doing anything illegal. I don't even watch music videos on Youtube because I view that as stealing.

I have asked lots of people of faith, in particular the excellent team at gotquestions.org, which is a great site in general. Their answers are mixed, as I said.

As for the doubt issue, I tend to think logically and take things to their logical conclusion. I actually doubt working on Sunday is ok. I doubt alcohol is ok. I doubt newspaper are ok, given the element of gossipmongering. In fact I doubt wearing sunglasses is ok, because it might be vanity. I doubt ever eating chips is ok, because it might be uneccesary gluttony. I doubt sleeping for longer than 8 hours is ok because it might be slothfulness.

That's a lot of stuff to throw out. Sorry for the little rant, it's just this is an important issue for me and I want to be 100% I'm doing something acceptable.

 

[quitespirit]

I have taken time to way my words to be a benefit to you. I do not understand the need to feel 'slightly offput' by my asking if you have support for your statement of 'fact' that it is perfectly legal to internet gamble in the US. As someone wanting to give real thought to anothers dilemma, I find the critisism slightly offputting.
Either way, I am not convinced from that link that the legality of gambling online (in the US) is clear cut (at best). I don't understand how you could see it as so with how far you go in the other direction about the other things you posted (newspapers, Youtube).
Either way, this does not apply to you as you don't live in the US.

The way you describe your thinking on different issues sounds like a hard place to live: legalistic tendancies, worrying that you will do the wrong thing. I've done it and it is tiring!
The Word tells us what is ok and not ok. Where God is silent there is freedom, as long as it doesn't lead to sin. God also doesn't expect us to be perfect, but to say yes to him in whatever he is showing us NOW. If God layed out every sin of ours at once we would be very very discouraged. Just like you don't exasperate a child, God is gracious to his kids too.
When we say yes to what we see, he shows us more. We can rest in that and if we mess up we can accept the grace of God through Jesus-that sin is payed for and wiped clean. We can move on to the next choice!

But here is where your personal relationship with God comes in, if you have a weaker conscience then for you certain things become sin. God made each of us different. That's why we have to be careful about what we share with other believers about freedom areas. Ones freedom can cause another to doubt and vice versa. Either way, these things you list may be sin for you, but does the bible condemn them? Or are they freedom?
I won't speak to these examples with my point of view for this reason: I do not want my understanding on certain issues to stumble someone else who could hear 'it's ok to do that!', and then do it, but have never really been sure it was ok in their conscience. That would be sin against my brother or sister. That's why my questions come back to the Word, because outside of that is Works.

Either way, this doesn't speak to your initial dilemma: What to do about gambling? We can't adopt others convictions. Just as you and I come from very different places and ways of thinking, this is probebly going to ultimately come down to a faith decision between you and God.

Good luck

 

[Elijah2]

That's a lot of stuff to throw out.
Mate, there is a lot of stuff to throw out.
Sorry for the little rant, it's just this is an important issue for me and I want to be 100% I'm doing something acceptable.
Now the issues that you have is between our Lord Jesus Christ and yourself.

Now if you are gambling and you place ALL BEFORE our Lord Jesus Christ before you start gambling, and after winning a lot of money you offer 10% of your winnings to your church, then you decide.

Gambling becomes and idol and destroys families.

So there is no one in the Christian world can say to you that what you are doing is 100% correct in HIS eyes.

Just think about it, gambling is an idol of the world, all gambling is to take money from families and destroy families, the work of the enemy.

The owners of the gambling dens or whatever you would like to call them is from the powers of darkness, and there is much going on in the background.

So, ask yourself, "What would Jesus do?" A normal thought or question.

Now if you believe that what you are doing glorifies His Kingdom, then do it. Remember you always reap what you sow!

Now you said that you wanted my answer to your question.

I wouldn't do it, because I can perceive and discern disaster.

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

 

[heron]

Gambling creates a false economy. In the long run, false worth is dangerous to a society.

The US sanctions gambling through the stock market and commodities. When the investors don't get the profits they want, jobs are outsourced to underdeveloped nations and citizens complain. When the stock market wavers, the entire economy wavers.

This winter, the world's economy is wavering. If people had built businesses steadily, on their own resources, this wavering would be limited to droughts, plagues, and invasions.

It's the larger scope that often makes things Wrong.

While poker has its own innocence in being self-sufficient, not impacting markets other than advertising, it is still a shell of reality.

You are building a skill that could place you -- where -- in a few decades. If online poker is ever declare illegal,
Your resume lists...
your tax record is...
your conversation with friends is about...
keeping up with technology advances is confined to upgrading your video card and...
your vulnerability to identity theft got you...

God respects your life. That is what the guidelines are for.

Many people with gambling problems drag other people into their debts. Spouses have to put up with hidden information and pull their partners out of debt. Children lose their parents' time and attention, as well as financial support.

A risk ends up being a risk. Go figure.

Proverbs 28:22
He who has an evil and covetous eye hastens to be rich and knows not that want will come upon him.[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]1 Timothy 6:9,10 [/FONT]But those who crave to be rich fall into temptation and a snare and into many foolish (useless, godless) and hurtful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction and miserable perishing.
For the love of money is a root of all evils; it is through this craving that some have been led astray and have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves through with many acute [mental] pangs. [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]
Proverbs 13:11

[/FONT]Wealth [not earned but] won in haste or unjustly or from the production of things for vain or detrimental use [such riches] will dwindle away, but he who gathers little by little will increase [his riches].

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Matthew 20:15
[/FONT]Am I not permitted to do what I choose with what is mine? [Or do you begrudge my being generous?] Is your eye evil because I am good?


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Proverbs 20:21
[/FONT]An inheritance hastily gotten [by greedy, unjust means] at the beginning, in the end it will not be blessed.


Work ethic
Gen 2:15; 3:19
Exo 20:9
2 Thes 3:10, 11
Eph 4:28
Prov 6:6; 12:11; 20:4

Greed as motivation leads toward further sin
Ex 20:17
Prov 11:28; 15:16; 23:4-5
Gal 5:21
Eph 5:3-5
Phil 4:11-13
Col 3:5
1 Tim 6:6-11, 17-19

Reliance on God's provision
Mat 6:25-34
Luke 12:15
Heb 13:5
1 Tim 6:6-9

Taking care of family and others
2 Cor 12:14
2 Thes 3:12
1 Tim 5:9
Prov 15:27

 

[highflyer]

Quitespirit,

I was only slightly off put by ‘sometimes sincere christians (myself at times) avoid finding out facts to hold onto choices that are not favorable to change’, and the suggestion that I had not researched whether what I was doing was illegal. Any 5 minute search of the internet should prove that you can play poker legally online and across the world. And furthermore the discussion of its legality only adds to the aura of wrongdoing which isn’t helpful to the debate.

Elijah,

You said, ‘Now if you are gambling and you place ALL BEFORE our Lord Jesus Christ before you start gambling, and after winning a lot of money you offer 10% of your winnings to your church, then you decide.’ So are you supporting the play, if I give at least 10%?

‘All gambling is to take money from families and destroy families, the work of the enemy.’ That’s a little bit apocalyptic don’t you think? I would right now give back every penny I’ve earned if any of it ‘destroyed families’. But really I think it is similar to drinking, in that you wouldn’t blame the barman for destroying the family of the drunkard.

‘I wouldn't do it, because I can perceive and discern disaster.’ Could you elaborate, or are you going to leave this undefined curse over my head? For me it’s either right or wrong, not ‘you can do it but be warned’.

Heron,

‘It's the larger scope that often makes things Wrong.’ OK, well how about this. If I give up poker, I’ll probably be thirty before I’m earning a third of what I could earn now. I intend to give a huge portion of my winnings to charity. Would you view my earnings so dimly if you saw the potentially hundreds of people who would benefit from the money I donate?

‘You are building a skill that could place you -- where -- in a few decades. If online poker is ever declare illegal’ I will have a degree in English Literature and intend to use a portion of my poker winnings on travelling to do charity work. These combined experiences should be sufficient to find me a job if poker ends.

‘your conversation with friends is about...’ This is surely not a credible reason to quit. In fact it is the opposite, I would be quitting despite the fact I will have less to talk about.

‘Proverbs 13:11. Wealth [not earned but] won in haste or unjustly or from the production of things for vain or detrimental use [such riches] will dwindle away, but he who gathers little by little will increase [his riches].’ This passage intrigues and challenges me. But in all the translations on the internet I can’t find the part of ‘or from the production of things for vain or detrimental use’. If this is in a reliable translation that would pose a problem to me.

Also, to all, maybe I’m sensitive but I sense a dark, apocryphal tone to the discussion. I would hope we all can approach each others problems in the light of our own sins and be supportive, yet firm. I know personally I would be far more convinced to make a decision from a friendly, yet persuasive and detailed argument, than from some fundamentalist catechism denouncing everything I stand for.

Thanks for your time.

 

[quitespirit]

Hey highflyer,
I've given a lot of time and thought to your dilemma, and have tried to weigh my words to be thoughtful but gentle. You have my thinking on the issue, and I think it was biblical. I didn't give you answers, but questions to ask yourself.

You are far harsher on yourself as far as do's/don't than I am on myself, so fundamental is very much relative. If you do not agree with the thinking offered that is fine, and I am not offended. But dismissing sincere imput you solicited from strangers and being critical of said imput is enough for me. This statement...

<<Also, to all, maybe I&#8217;m sensitive but I sense a dark, apocryphal tone to the discussion. I would hope we all can approach each others problems in the light of our own sins and be supportive, yet firm. I know personally I would be far more convinced to make a decision from a friendly, yet persuasive and detailed argument, than from some fundamentalist catechism denouncing everything I stand for... >>

...is my sign it's time to bow out. Seek truth bro...that's all you need to hear.

 

[highflyer]

I apologise if it seemed I was dismissing your input. It was more surprise that you thought it was illegal and doubted when I said it wasn't. And the bit about fundamentalism etc wasn't aimed at you.

Edit: I am beginning to regret asking this question. I appreciate the time people have spent giving me answers (or links), but maybe I do need more specialised assistance.

 

[Elijah2]

You said, &#8216;Now if you are gambling and you place ALL BEFORE our Lord Jesus Christ before you start gambling, and after winning a lot of money you offer 10% of your winnings to your church, then you decide.&#8217; So are you supporting the play, if I give at least 10%?
Sorry QF, I don't support gambling at all, in fact it destroys more families than edify them.
If you are claiming it's a business, and you earn money then are you going to offer 10% from your earnings to His Kingdom, and I guess you will also pay tax?

&#8216;All gambling is to take money from families and destroy families, the work of the enemy.&#8217; That&#8217;s a little bit apocalyptic don&#8217;t you think?
Why would you say that, when it's a fact of life with all the addiction of gambling and the destructions of marriages because of it.
I would right now give back every penny I&#8217;ve earned if any of it &#8216;destroyed families&#8217;.
Well, you need to be involved in the counselling ministry to see how many families are destroyed by gambling.

But really I think it is similar to drinking, in that you wouldn&#8217;t blame the barman for destroying the family of the drunkard.
What has a barman got to do with gambling?
&#8216;I wouldn't do it, because I can perceive and discern disaster.&#8217; Could you elaborate, or are you going to leave this undefined curse over my head?
It's not an undefined curse, it's a perception. If you can't see some truth in all that has been put before you, then it's all on your own head.

For me it&#8217;s either right or wrong, not &#8216;you can do it but be warned&#8217;.
As I said earlier, it's your choice and decision.

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

 

[heron]

It was more surprise that you thought it was illegal and doubted when I said it wasn't.

Gambling is generally illegal in the United States. There are a few sanctioned venues, that are carefully watched and monitored.

&#8216;All gambling is to take money from families and destroy families, the work of the enemy.&#8217; That&#8217;s a little bit apocalyptic don&#8217;t you think? I would right now give back every penny I&#8217;ve earned if any of it &#8216;destroyed families&#8217;. But really I think it is similar to drinking, in that you wouldn&#8217;t blame the barman for destroying the family of the drunkard.

You've never heard stories from families of compulsive gamblers? This is simply a classic fallout... nothing unusually spiritualized. No one starts gambling with the intent to destroy the people they love, but it happens over and over.

Many of us are not speaking from a random set of rules in our heads, but from watching friends and family fall apart. We all think we are invincible, but It happens to the best of us.

The translation you asked about -- I just pasted the Amplified Bible's, which adds thoughts related to cultural connotations of the time written, and extends meaning to several definitions. No big reason for choosing Amplified -- I had a dozen choices and made a quick decision.

When I play a game or pursue a skill, there's a rush in accomplishing and learning, a thrill in competing and succeeding. But after succeeding a few times, I get bored.

Poker is a game with strategy and skill, but there's a cap -- a glass cieling -- to how much you can learn and outwit opponents with. At some point, playing the game will have no challenges -- it might be no less boring than assembly line work (more lucrative, sure).

Where God comes into the picture -- He made you with skills and talents to do something wonderful and unique. If you choose a game profession that already has a set of skill boundaries, the potential for innovation is limited to those boundaries. Unless you invent a spinoff. It is a shell of a profession, that is contained -- limited by its own boundaries. There are other ways you could be using your talents and intelligence, besides handing money out --trusting you have given it to a worthy cause.

There will be other players with a similar set of skills and intelligence who raise themselves up to the level of skill that you have achieved, and eventually they will win more often. Most games have a skill ceiling. (Hence world record books.)

I have learned that almost anything I put in front of me, I will try to solve or look into or develop. The first time I noticed this was in HS, at an ice capades show I didn't even want to see -- it frustrated me that I didn't have a pair of skates with me to try doing the same stunts. I realized that I am vulnerable and gullible to the challenges I see. So I try to limit what I put in front of me.

Each of us has the potential to bring new ideas and solutions to society, to improve it. It's not all about money. We limit our own greatness if we choose not to use our gifts, or to apply them in limited spaces.

Success feels like flying -- being able to move more swiftly and deftly than we thought we could with our human abilities. Vehicles like the Internet that speed things along actually do make us move more quickly than our human limits, so gambling can feel like racing, skydiving... fulfilling the need for speed.