Premortal Existance (LDS)

[skylark1]

Yesterday I was reading an old thread to which someone had linked. Although I had posted on that thread, my participation was limited to a side discussion. Since that thread appears to have been closed I am starting a new one to ask a few questions. I'm not sure that it warrants an entire thread, but I don't know where else to ask. When reading through the old thread, I came across this post:

The question was simple, but I'll add some context, so that it's even more clear.

Regarding the origin of our spirits in the premortal life, President Marion G. Romney, who was a counselor in the First Presidency, taught: “In origin, man is a son of God. The spirits of men ‘are begotten sons and daughters unto God’ ( D&C 76:24 ). Through that birth process, self-existing intelligence was organized into individual spirit beings” (in Conference Report, Sept.–Oct. 1978, 18; or Ensign, Nov. 1978, 14 ). Pearl of Great Price Student Manual - Religion 327 : Abraham 3:18 - 28 - The Lord Taught Abraham About the Premortal Existence

Well, first of all, there is an eternity of spirit matter. “Our spirit matter was eternal and co-existent with God, but it was organized into spirit bodies by our Heavenly Father.” (Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 5.) The Life and Teachings of Jesus and His Apostles : 41 - Elected Before the Foundations of the World​

So, God took self-existing intelligence (spirit matter), which was in an unorganized condition, and organized it into our spirit bodies. This is called our "spirit birth."

My question again:

According to LDS doctrine, or any logical extrapolation of it, did or could have our spirit birth been the result of our obedience to a commandment of God?

CF Thread link

I read the links, and wanted to read the quotes that were in them in context, so I searched for the original quotes. In one of the source, I read:

We lived in this premortal life with him for an infinite period of time. We were on probation; we were being schooled and tested and examined; we were given the laws and the circumstances so that we could progress and advance. …

“This system was given to us, and for an infinite period of time, we advanced and progressed and did things that enabled us to go along the course leading to exaltation and dominion and godhood. …

“In this prior life, this premortal existence, this pre-existence, we developed various capacities and talents. Some developed them in one field and some in another. The most important of all fields was the field of spirituality, the ability, the talent, the capacity to recognize truth.” (Bruce R. McConkie, as cited in When Thou Art Converted, Strengthen Thy Brethren, A Study Guide for the Melchizedek Priesthood Quorums of the Church, 1974–75, pp. 8–9.)

“Our spirit bodies went through a long period of growth and development and training and, having passed the test successfully, were finally admitted to this earth and to mortality.” (Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 5.)

source​

These quotes seem to indicate that before being born with a body that spirits were being trained and tested; and that they advanced and progressed. I thought that was what LDS taught that being born on earth with a body was about? I didn't realize that they taught that this same thing was happening premortally. Am I understanding this correctly?


I linked the OP post, but a response is open to and welcome from anyone. I don't expect someone to feel that they need to respond to something that they wrote from a few years ago. There was a comment made yesterday that seemed to put those who have posted here for some time in a bad light. I'd rather not be thought of by participating in this and other discussions as a stone stuck in someone's shoe, patiently endured, but constantly irritating. That is not my intent in asking this. I am just curious if my understanding of LDS theology is correct, and that the premortal life is considered to have been a time of training, testing, advancing and progressing?

 

[TasteForTruth]

Yesterday I was reading an old thread to which someone had linked. Although I had posted on that thread, my participation was limited to a side discussion. Since that thread appears to have been closed I am starting a new one to ask a few questions. I'm not sure that it warrants an entire thread, but I don't know where else to ask. When reading through the old thread, I came across this post:

The question was simple, but I'll add some context, so that it's even more clear.

Regarding the origin of our spirits in the premortal life, President Marion G. Romney, who was a counselor in the First Presidency, taught: “In origin, man is a son of God. The spirits of men ‘are begotten sons and daughters unto God’ ( D&C 76:24 ). Through that birth process, self-existing intelligence was organized into individual spirit beings” (in Conference Report, Sept.–Oct. 1978, 18; or Ensign, Nov. 1978, 14 ). Pearl of Great Price Student Manual - Religion 327 : Abraham 3:18 - 28 - The Lord Taught Abraham About the Premortal Existence

Well, first of all, there is an eternity of spirit matter. “Our spirit matter was eternal and co-existent with God, but it was organized into spirit bodies by our Heavenly Father.” (Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 5.) The Life and Teachings of Jesus and His Apostles : 41 - Elected Before the Foundations of the World​

So, God took self-existing intelligence (spirit matter), which was in an unorganized condition, and organized it into our spirit bodies. This is called our "spirit birth."

My question again:

According to LDS doctrine, or any logical extrapolation of it, did or could have our spirit birth been the result of our obedience to a commandment of God?

CF Thread link​

I read the links, and wanted to read the quotes that were in them in context, so I searched for the original quotes. In one of the source, I read:

We lived in this premortal life with him for an infinite period of time. We were on probation; we were being schooled and tested and examined; we were given the laws and the circumstances so that we could progress and advance. …

“This system was given to us, and for an infinite period of time, we advanced and progressed and did things that enabled us to go along the course leading to exaltation and dominion and godhood. …

“In this prior life, this premortal existence, this pre-existence, we developed various capacities and talents. Some developed them in one field and some in another. The most important of all fields was the field of spirituality, the ability, the talent, the capacity to recognize truth.” (Bruce R. McConkie, as cited in When Thou Art Converted, Strengthen Thy Brethren, A Study Guide for the Melchizedek Priesthood Quorums of the Church, 1974–75, pp. 8–9.)

“Our spirit bodies went through a long period of growth and development and training and, having passed the test successfully, were finally admitted to this earth and to mortality.” (Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 5.)

source​

These quotes seem to indicate that before being born with a body that spirits were being trained and tested; and that they advanced and progressed. I thought that was what LDS taught that being born on earth with a body was about? I didn't realize that they taught that this same thing was happening premortally. Am I understanding this correctly?

You are reading it correctly. We understand that we each had different personalities and developed different talents and abilities in the pre-mortal realm. Essentially, who I am here is who I was there, excepting the growth and change that I have experienced because of mortality. And who am I here is who I'll be in the eternities, after death and resurrection.

I linked the OP post, but a response is open to and welcome from anyone. I don't expect someone to feel that they need to respond to something that they wrote from a few years ago. There was a comment made yesterday that seemed to put those who have posted here for some time in a bad light. I'd rather not be thought of by participating in this and other discussions as a stone stuck in someone's shoe, patiently endured, but constantly irritating. That is not my intent in asking this. I am just curious if my understanding of LDS theology is correct, and that the premortal life is considered to have been a time of training, testing, advancing and progressing

Yes, it most certainly was. At least, that is our belief.

And your summary of my comment is too broad. My original comment was confined to those who start threads on the same topics repeatedly, to rail against them or foment criticism of them. If that was not clear, hopefully it is now.

 

[skylark1]

You are reading it correctly. We understand that we each had different personalities and developed different talents and abilities in the pre-mortal realm. Essentially, who I am here is who I was there, excepting the growth and change that I have experienced because of mortality. And who am I here is who I'll be in the eternities, after death and resurrection.

Yes, it most certainly was. At least, that is our belief.

Thanks. I will probably have a follow up question or two later. It might be a little while.

And your summary of my comment is too broad. My original comment was confined to those who start threads on the same topics repeatedly, to rail against them or foment criticism of them. If that was not clear, hopefully it is now.

It wasn't clear to me... there were several comments made. I didn't want you to feel obligated to respond if starting this thread fell into what you had mentioned.. Anyway, thanks for clarifying...

 

[RevelationTestament]

Well, first of all, there is an eternity of spirit matter. “Our spirit matter was eternal and co-existent with God, but it was organized into spirit bodies by our Heavenly Father.” (Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 5.) The Life and Teachings of Jesus and His Apostles : 41 - Elected Before the Foundations of the World[/INDENT]

Hi Skylark. First off, I would point out that this teaching basically precludes "the birth" of more "intelligences." Second, something like this was taught by Joseph Smith. Third, I am going to stick my neck out and say that there really are no scriptures that teach infinite births of new spirits. I am going to stick my neck out, and say that our spiritual birth is a rebirth in covenant to Christ. I don't really know anything about our "spiritual birth" if any before this world.

So, God took self-existing intelligence (spirit matter), which was in an unorganized condition, and organized it into our spirit bodies. This is called our "spirit birth."

Who are you quoting here?

My question again:

According to LDS doctrine, or any logical extrapolation of it, did or could have our spirit birth been the result of our obedience to a commandment of God?

BY certainly thought so, and I would say yes in part. Again I am surely departing from mainstream LDS teaching on the subject, as I see us gaining this experience in the eternal lives prior to this world. This implies us living on prior worlds. What exactly we were doing in our preexistence I cannot say.

These quotes seem to indicate that before being born with a body that spirits were being trained and tested; and that they advanced and progressed. I thought that was what LDS taught that being born on earth with a body was about? I didn't realize that they taught that this same thing was happening premortally. Am I understanding this correctly?

I believe you are probably understanding what was taught, but for what it's worth, I seem to see our preexistence a little differently as it includes prior worldly existences in which we could be tested and proven.

Well, I don't know if I answered your questions. I affirm our pre-existence, but I don't see it all within a spiritual realm like some of these quoted leaders seem to be telling us. So to be frank, I guess not all LDS see our pre-existence the same way. Being that there is a paucity of canonical scripture on the subject, I have to stick to what the scriptures have revealed to me on the subject rather than engage in speculation.
Cheers

 

[Theway]

First, almost all of what you posted is speculation, or it is a principle based on existing revelation. A principle of the gospel is where the actual doctrine or idea itself has not been revealed.
Second, where did you get the "intelligent" spirit matter from?
I understand his idea of there being eternal spirit matter (which would be an example of a principle)
Third, i do believe that we were being taught before we came here. But while in the spirit realm, we had reached a point where we had gone as far as we could go in our spiritual bodies only, and needed a phyical body, and even in some cases we needed to forget what we knew in order to progress.
It's like going to college; there comes a time when you have learned all you can about a subject from books and Instructors. Because all you have learned is purely academic and of little meaning if you have no practical or working knowledge of your studies. At one point in order to understand your field of study and grow in it, you will have to go out into the real world to practice and test what you have learned.
In our case the greatest lesson we need to learn by coming here, is to learn to live by faith. That could not happen had we retained our knowledge of God, who we truely are, and what is truely waiting for those who obey God out of their love for Him.
We are given a body so that through our trials and unfortunately through our errors, we can learn to control ourselves and our passions, and ironically, learn to live by faith to the point where faith has been perfected and is no longer needed as we are back to a knowledge of God. In essense we have become like God.
When we have become like God sharing the same attributes, only then can we experience the type of joy which He does... This is what God ultimately wants for us, to have joy, and to have it more abundantly.

None of this can be learned or fully understood by us while in a spiritual realm, and while under the full knowledge of God.

 

[skylark1]

Hi Skylark. First off, I would point out that this teaching basically precludes "the birth" of more "intelligences." Second, something like this was taught by Joseph Smith. Third, I am going to stick my neck out and say that there really are no scriptures that teach infinite births of new spirits. I am going to stick my neck out, and say that our spiritual birth is a rebirth in covenant to Christ. I don't really know anything about our "spiritual birth" if any before this world.

Hi RevelationTestament. I understand that you see some of this differently than mainstream LDS theology, but I can keep that in mind while discussing this. I hope that this makes sense. Do you think that those who are exalted will have children (spirits) similarly to how Heavenly Father has children? I am trying to relate that to you belief that there is not an infinite birth of new spirits. I am a little confused about what you believe.

Who are you quoting here?

I should have made that clear in the OP. I was quoting from a thread that was a few years old, and didn't want the author (TasteForTruth) to feel obligated to just pick up talk about what he had written so long ago. I edited the OP to make it clear. I also used the quote instead of indent tag to make it clearer who said what. The is a link in the OP to the original thread, but I think that most of that discussion does not relate. I was originally trying to make the post look less cluttered.

BY certainly thought so, and I would say yes in part. Again I am surely departing from mainstream LDS teaching on the subject, as I see us gaining this experience in the eternal lives prior to this world. This implies us living on prior worlds. What exactly we were doing in our preexistence I cannot say.

I believe you are probably understanding what was taught, but for what it's worth, I seem to see our preexistence a little differently as it includes prior worldly existences in which we could be tested and proven.

When you say eternal lives and living on prior worlds, are you saying that you think that we as individuals had multiple lives? Or was that an expression to mean all of us collectively?

Well, I don't know if I answered your questions. I affirm our pre-existence, but I don't see it all within a spiritual realm like some of these quoted leaders seem to be telling us. So to be frank, I guess not all LDS see our pre-existence the same way. Being that there is a paucity of canonical scripture on the subject, I have to stick to what the scriptures have revealed to me on the subject rather than engage in speculation.
Cheers

When you say that you see our spiritual birth as a rebirth in covenant to Christ, would that be when one joins the LDS Church, is baptized, and confirmed? If it is a rebirth, then in your view when was our spiritual birth?

I'm trying to understand your view, not tear apart what you wrote. I hope that what I wrote comes across that way.

 

[skylark1]

Hi Theway. Fist of all, I am sorry but the formatting that I used in the OP might have gave the impression that that words of someone that I was quoting were my words. I edited the OP, and hope that is clearer now.

First, almost all of what you posted is speculation, or it is a principle based on existing revelation. A principle of the gospel is where the actual doctrine or idea itself has not been revealed.
Second, where did you get the "intelligent" spirit matter from?
I understand his idea of there being eternal spirit matter (which would be an example of a principle)

I am not sure if you are addressing what I wrote, what I was quoting from TasteForTruth in the OP (now attributed to him), or what RevelationTestament wrote. Are these the words that you were asking about (from the OP), "God took self-existing intelligence (spirit matter), which was in an unorganized condition, and organized it into our spirit bodies?" If so that is what TasteForTruth wrote in a thread several years ago. Again, I am sorry if my formatting was confusing, and hope that the OP is clearer now.

You wrote, "A principle of the gospel is where the actual doctrine or idea itself has not been revealed." I had not heard this before. I know that there is an introductory LDS manual called Gospel Principles. I assumed that principles were the basics beliefs of the faith.

Third, i do believe that we were being taught before we came here. But while in the spirit realm, we had reached a point where we had gone as far as we could go in our spiritual bodies only, and needed a phyical body, and even in some cases we needed to forget what we knew in order to progress.

It's like going to college; there comes a time when you have learned all you can about a subject from books and Instructors. Because all you have learned is purely academic and of little meaning if you have no practical or working knowledge of your studies. At one point in order to understand your field of study and grow in it, you will have to go out into the real world to practice and test what you have learned.

In our case the greatest lesson we need to learn by coming here, is to learn to live by faith. That could not happen had we retained our knowledge of God, who we truely are, and what is truely waiting for those who obey God out of their love for Him.

We are given a body so that through our trials and unfortunately through our errors, we can learn to control ourselves and our passions, and ironically, learn to live by faith to the point where faith has been perfected and is no longer needed as we are back to a knowledge of God. In essense we have become like God.

When we have become like God sharing the same attributes, only then can we experience the type of joy which He does... This is what God ultimately wants for us, to have joy, and to have it more abundantly.

None of this can be learned or fully understood by us while in a spiritual realm, and while under the full knowledge of God.

The rest of you post (quoted just above) goes right to the heart of what I was going to ask about in my next post. I think that your post probably answered part of my questions that I was going to post. I have to leave for a while soon, so I am going to make this short.

Why do you think that we needed a physical body? If we were already schooled and tested, and we had already advanced and progressed, then why was it necessary to have a body? I know that you talked about this in your post, but it isn't clear to me why having a body would make a difference.

I'll save my other question for later, as I really need to go now.

 

[RevelationTestament]

Hi RevelationTestament. I understand that you see some of this differently than mainstream LDS theology, but I can keep that in mind while discussing this. I hope that this makes sense. Do you think that those who are exalted will have children (spirits) similarly to how Heavenly Father has children? I am trying to relate that to you belief that there is not an infinite birth of new spirits. I am a little confused about what you believe.

When we have children here on earth - they really aren't ours - they came from our Father - the Father of spirits, He says. Now we might be bound together in covenant - that is a slightly different issue. For your next question I believe those who are exalted shall be exalted in Christ and that He will be the Father of spirits. As for the rest of us, I believe we will be sons and daughters. Who Jesus chooses to give His glory to seems to also be dependent upon those foreordained in the Father.
So do any "new" spirits come into play here? I don't see any. Jesus becomes our Father. He inherits the government of the Father - so we are "reborn" in Him if we believe in Him. So does He "have children (spirits) similarly to how Heavenly Father has children?" Absolutely.

I was quoting from a thread that was a few years old, and didn't want the author (TasteForTruth) to feel obligated to just pick up talk about what he had written so long ago. I edited the OP to make it clear.

OK. Well, I'll just say that the issue of our "spirit birth" is not clear to me. I am sure TFT was accurately speaking as to what various authorities wrote, but I like to see things in scripture before I commit.

When you say eternal lives and living on prior worlds, are you saying that you think that we as individuals had multiple lives? Or was that an expression to mean all of us collectively?

I not sure I understand what you are getting at. I believe everyone who has ever lived on this earth, including Jesus Christ, previously lived on a prior "earth" or world, and yes, that collectively, He became the author of our salvation for the world to come, and that we do not remember that world, just like we will not remember the next one. I believe Acts 13 is telling us that Christ was raised again, anistemi Ieousus anistemi, ripping this veil in the temple.
Thus, He is truly our brother and our "fellow." Before the "beginning" He was once on a world with us and followed what He saw His Father do, and did likewise as He did here for this world thus glorifying the Father who said He was glorifying His name "again" in Jesus - which I take to be in His crucifixion and resurrection.

When you say that you see our spiritual birth as a rebirth in covenant to Christ, would that be when one joins the LDS Church, is baptized, and confirmed? If it is a rebirth, then in your view when was our spiritual birth?

To be reborn in Christ one must be baptized. I believe that yes, that entails being baptized with the authority of the holy priesthood. This does not mean that others do not have the light of Christ. You seem to.
As to the original "birth" I can't say for sure, but it seems that is when we were born of the Father in the gospel.

I'm trying to understand your view, not tear apart what you wrote. I hope that what I wrote comes across that way.

Not at all. I have always found you to be a most pleasant person, and I appreciate your effort to understand others - it's exemplary.
I believe one cannot find truth unless one is willing to search for it, and even be tested of the world - indeed I think that is why we are here. So we are all stuck in the "same boat" to search for truth. Ultimately, I have found that I find the truth in the scriptures. Men have always tried to understand them, and most interpret them differently which is why most Jews reject their Messiah. So in my life, I have found that I have to wade or sort through the beliefs of men concerning the scriptures, and accept what is consistent, and reject what is not rather than rejecting the whole. In following the scriptures I am following the words of God, and therefore I am safe with God as He can only judge me based upon my honest understanding of His word. I do not need to worry about what other men may think of them. While that is sometimes useful to help me understand, it also sometimes is misleading.
You do seem to make an honest effort to search for truth, and having gone through the same effort for most of my life(and continuing to do so) I quite understand and appreciate those such as yourself.

 

[EarlyChristianresearcher]

Yesterday I was reading an old thread to which someone had linked. Although I had posted on that thread, my participation was limited to a side discussion. Since that thread appears to have been closed I am starting a new one to ask a few questions. I'm not sure that it warrants an entire thread, but I don't know where else to ask. When reading through the old thread, I came across this post:




I read the links, and wanted to read the quotes that were in them in context, so I searched for the original quotes. In one of the source, I read:

We lived in this premortal life with him for an infinite period of time. We were on probation; we were being schooled and tested and examined; we were given the laws and the circumstances so that we could progress and advance. …

“This system was given to us, and for an infinite period of time, we advanced and progressed and did things that enabled us to go along the course leading to exaltation and dominion and godhood. …

“In this prior life, this premortal existence, this pre-existence, we developed various capacities and talents. Some developed them in one field and some in another. The most important of all fields was the field of spirituality, the ability, the talent, the capacity to recognize truth.” (Bruce R. McConkie, as cited in When Thou Art Converted, Strengthen Thy Brethren, A Study Guide for the Melchizedek Priesthood Quorums of the Church, 1974–75, pp. 8–9.)

“Our spirit bodies went through a long period of growth and development and training and, having passed the test successfully, were finally admitted to this earth and to mortality.” (Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 5.)

source
​

These quotes seem to indicate that before being born with a body that spirits were being trained and tested; and that they advanced and progressed. I thought that was what LDS taught that being born on earth with a body was about? I didn't realize that they taught that this same thing was happening premortally. Am I understanding this correctly?


I linked the OP post, but a response is open to and welcome from anyone. I don't expect someone to feel that they need to respond to something that they wrote from a few years ago. There was a comment made yesterday that seemed to put those who have posted here for some time in a bad light. I'd rather not be thought of by participating in this and other discussions as a stone stuck in someone's shoe, patiently endured, but constantly irritating. That is not my intent in asking this. I am just curious if my understanding of LDS theology is correct, and that the premortal life is considered to have been a time of training, testing, advancing and progressing?

To understand LDS (Mormons, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints') beliefs & doctrines of the pre-existence, you also have to understand the that is one in many doctrine from early Christianity, believed to be in need of being restored, because of how it was later legendized in many areas of later Christianity, though preserved in manuscripts, art works, & writings in other areas too. Mormon testify to be a restoration of early Christianity taught by Christ & his apostles. That's means that historic Christians' versions of the pre-existence ought to be looked at too. It is understood in LDS thought that in the pre-mortal existence, we just didn't float around in the clouds doing nothing, learning nothing & or not progressing. But instead, as spirit sons & daughters to Divine Parents, we learned, progressed & grew to spiritual maturity. The universe being a place learning, and there are worlds out there where spirits go to learn new lessons in the physical world. At birth, to create a new beginning, a fresh start, our memories of the pre-mortal existence is blocked off, except in a few cases. This is so that as infants we can grow learn & be tested to see what we will do with what little knowledge, skills, abilities, gifts, inventions, or historical environments that we are born into. All of us have been born in different times, places & different levels of progress in sciences, etc. Thus, we all will be judge differently, based on where & when we were, or will be born into. How we took what we were given to either use our settings for earth life for good or bad. As infants, in what ever circumstances we are thus born, God will take into account in his all knowing & loving grace, how we were raised, what we were taught as we grew up, & thus give us a fair judgement, when our mortal life is reviewed in the after mortal "life review." All these factors & aspects are taken into account when each of our own lives are judged by Christ & our Divine Parents. The better circumstances that spirits are born into, when their spirits are clothed in a mortal body, the more they are going to be held responsible for how they used what they were given. The more light & knowledge that they were given, as compaired to others, the more they become responsible for what they were given, like how different ones did different things with their talents (Matthew 25:13-30). Where much is given, much is expected. Where less is given, less is expected of those who do things, like an infant, because they don't know better. Thus, as pre-mortal spirits learn, progress, & grow in the pre-mortal existence, they know that there are different circumstances that they can choose or be asked to choose to be assigned to. They can be pre-ordained to do certain missions which they could do in the physical world, if they so choose to perform those missions. Some are "sent down" to be teachers, leaders, prophets & apostles. Others to experience other lessons, as free agency creates oppositions for those in the physical body to experience the different extremes of choices to learn different physical experiences by. Free agency of choices creates the opposition to thus have choices of one or the other, good or bad (Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 2:11-30). Some of the spirits sons & daughters of our Divine Parents knew that free agency would cause not only the opposition to choose from, but that many would choose to the complete opposite of good, choosing evil. Thus, someone would need to be sent on the mission to help cleanse the human family of their sins, & Christ was chosen for this mission, being the first born of our Divine Parents in the family in heaven. Families in heaven, are like in structure, earthly families, which are made of of Father, Mother, sons & daughters. In the council of heaven, (see art works), Lucifer-Satan, tried to get other spirits to follow his plan of taking away choice, by forcing everyone to choose only good. This would have voided out the whole point of learning through experiencing oppositions by choice. Learning from the hard mistakes we often make in life. Learning the hard lessons of choosing to obey God's commandments, or not. Learning the consequences of our own actions, which is one of the main points of mortal life. But for Satan to force everyone to be good, would require that he would have to have all powers to force every action of every spirit born into a body. He would have to be given our Divine Parents' powers, but allowed to abuse those powers for evil purposes of force. As it turned out, free agency won out, but not without there being a war in heaven where Satan drew a third of the spirits to follow him. Michael the arch-angel & his armies, thrust Satan & his angels out. The fallen angels lost their former glory, freely choosing to rebell against the others. As they fell they were demonified & became the demonic forces amongst the inhabited worlds they fell to. Thus, they also created the opposition for mortals to choose by, as they tempt us to choose evil, but are not allowed to force humans to do evil. For guardian angels watch over us, to make sure that Satan & his demons are not allowed to tempt us above that which we can deal with. Some LDS prophets have said that some guardian angels are the mortals' children to be. Pre-existing spirits who will be born in the mortal family lines, watching out for their mortal parents. Others are our grand parents who watch over their children & childrens' children. The whole point of earth life is that its a testing ground to act & being acted upon. To choose freely, good or bad. To choose to become like Christ & the holy angels, or choose to become like the Devil & his fallen angels. To choose the path towards deification, the right hand path. Or to choose the left hand path to retrogress down towards demonification. It's our choice. This is just some aspects of the pre-existence. But there is more & some more sources, art works, writings & ancient texts on this could be explored here too.

 

[yogosans14]

It's not biblical, the early church never taught such a false doctrine.

 

[Brambleberry]

There are times (I am hopeless at finding where in the Bible) but where God told prophets he knew/loved them before they were born I think David also said this . Also there are indications in Revelations about the war in heaven when satan and a third of heaven was cast out. LDS believe that we were there. Some of our brothers and sisters chose satans plan and not Jesus plan and were cast out for not keeping their first estate.Which was to be born and have a body.

 

[Brambleberry]

I might add I was LDS for 34 yrs, but left two years ago. I consider myself a follower of Jesus rather than any specific religion as such. I think I still interpret the Bible differently in places….but of course the Bible language is very open to interpretation IMHO

 

[skylark1]

To understand LDS (Mormons, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints') beliefs & doctrines of the pre-existence, you also have to understand the that is one in many doctrine from early Christianity, believed to be in need of being restored, because of how it was later legendized in many areas of later Christianity, though preserved in manuscripts, art works, & writings in other areas too.

{the rest of text omitted for brevity}

Hi. I hope that this doesn't sound rude, but it is really difficult for me to read your post when it is one really long paragraph. I think that I got through most of it though. I wondered when I saw the words, " In the council of heaven, (see art works)," if you had written this for something else, and just posted it here? Were the underlines originally links to something? I don't mean to give cause for offense, but I would prefer to have a conversation with people. That is hard for me to do when a post looks like a lot of information that was written for something else. I think that if you tried to converse with people instead of posting report style posts, that more people would listen and interact with you. You obviously have a lot of things to say and are passionate about it.

 

[skylark1]

I might add I was LDS for 34 yrs, but left two years ago. I consider myself a follower of Jesus rather than any specific religion as such. I think I still interpret the Bible differently in places….but of course the Bible language is very open to interpretation IMHO

Wow, these are your first two posts here! Welcome.

Thanks for your input. I look forward to reading more from you.



(If you do not consider yourself to be LDS you might want to change your icon so as to not confuse people. Of course, that is up to you!)

 

[Brambleberry]

Thankyou Skylark for pointing that out. It has been so long since I joined I did not realise I had LDS down still as my religion.

 

[TasteForTruth]

I might add I was LDS for 34 yrs, but left two years ago.

Don't stay away too long.

 

[Brambleberry]

Not saying would never go back….just not in this neck of the woods. And I now have beliefs that I would stick with…I still hold to some LDS beliefs, but I believe in Grace not works, now and I do not believe in some of the laws of Moses which were put to rest…those I would keep…I guess I would turn a Bishops hair grey!

 

[skylark1]

When we have children here on earth - they really aren't ours - they came from our Father - the Father of spirits, He says. Now we might be bound together in covenant - that is a slightly different issue. For your next question I believe those who are exalted shall be exalted in Christ and that He will be the Father of spirits. As for the rest of us, I believe we will be sons and daughters. Who Jesus chooses to give His glory to seems to also be dependent upon those foreordained in the Father.

So do any "new" spirits come into play here? I don't see any. Jesus becomes our Father. He inherits the government of the Father - so we are "reborn" in Him if we believe in Him. So does He "have children (spirits) similarly to how Heavenly Father has children?" Absolutely.

OK. Well, I'll just say that the issue of our "spirit birth" is not clear to me. I am sure TFT was accurately speaking as to what various authorities wrote, but I like to see things in scripture before I commit.

I not sure I understand what you are getting at. I believe everyone who has ever lived on this earth, including Jesus Christ, previously lived on a prior "earth" or world, and yes, that collectively, He became the author of our salvation for the world to come, and that we do not remember that world, just like we will not remember the next one. I believe Acts 13 is telling us that Christ was raised again, anistemi Ieousus anistemi, ripping this veil in the temple.

Thus, He is truly our brother and our "fellow." Before the "beginning" He was once on a world with us and followed what He saw His Father do, and did likewise as He did here for this world thus glorifying the Father who said He was glorifying His name "again" in Jesus - which I take to be in His crucifixion and resurrection.

That better explains your beliefs. You warned me in your other posts that some of this differs from mainstream LDS theology, so I am keeping that in mind. So, if I am understanding you, we are born again and again on different worlds, and in the next world Jesus will be our Father. What will Heavenly Father ( I am trying to use LDS terms to keep this straight) play at the time? What do you think happens to us as we progress? My understanding is that traditional LDS theology teaches that when a husband and wife are exalted that they will become gods and among other things receive power to do as God does, including the power to bear children after the resurrection. It sounds like your beliefs differ on this?

To be reborn in Christ one must be baptized. I believe that yes, that entails being baptized with the authority of the holy priesthood. This does not mean that others do not have the light of Christ. You seem to.
As to the original "birth" I can't say for sure, but it seems that is when we were born of the Father in the gospel.

What do you mean by being born of the Father in the gospel? I don't remember anyone using that phrase before.

Not at all. I have always found you to be a most pleasant person, and I appreciate your effort to understand others - it's exemplary.
I believe one cannot find truth unless one is willing to search for it, and even be tested of the world - indeed I think that is why we are here. So we are all stuck in the "same boat" to search for truth. Ultimately, I have found that I find the truth in the scriptures. Men have always tried to understand them, and most interpret them differently which is why most Jews reject their Messiah. So in my life, I have found that I have to wade or sort through the beliefs of men concerning the scriptures, and accept what is consistent, and reject what is not rather than rejecting the whole. In following the scriptures I am following the words of God, and therefore I am safe with God as He can only judge me based upon my honest understanding of His word. I do not need to worry about what other men may think of them. While that is sometimes useful to help me understand, it also sometimes is misleading.
You do seem to make an honest effort to search for truth, and having gone through the same effort for most of my life(and continuing to do so) I quite understand and appreciate those such as yourself.

Thanks for your kind words. I appreciate you posting what you believe, even if some of it differs from traditional LDS theology. Sometimes people take that opposite approach and will try to only say what is official teachings and not talk about any areas where views may differ.

 

[skylark1]

If anyone else wants to answer the question that I asked TheWay, please feel free to do so. Not that I don't want to hear his answer, but maybe not everyone would answer it the same way.

Here it is again:

Why do you think that we needed a physical body? If we were already schooled and tested, and we had already advanced and progressed, then why was it necessary to have a body? Why would having a body would make a difference?​

Thanks.


(I feel like I am spamming my own thread. Sorry for so many posts.)

 

[RevelationTestament]

There are times (I am hopeless at finding where in the Bible) but where God told prophets he knew/loved them before they were born I think David also said this . Also there are indications in Revelations about the war in heaven when satan and a third of heaven was cast out. LDS believe that we were there. Some of our brothers and sisters chose satans plan and not Jesus plan and were cast out for not keeping their first estate.Which was to be born and have a body.

Jer 1:4-5