Predestination, why bother?

[Aidan K]

Friends I struggle with understanding the term. If its preordained that some are doomed to hell and the others for salvation,why bother leading a moral life if your fates already sealed?

 

[RC1970]

why bother leading a moral life if your fates already sealed?

Because if you're preordained to salvation then you're preordained to lead a moral life.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Hi,

Predestination in my opinion is a false idea. The bible says that:

1Ti 2:4 [God ] would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Also those that perish are not those God chooses, but rather those who choose to do evil, who don't love doing good.

2Th 2:10 -12 and with all deceit of unrighteousness for them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God is love. Can you imagine love hating something so much it must be sent to hell for no reason, other than God wanted it. That is just stupid. God sends the evil to hell, those who oppose the character of love, who hurt and hate others repentantly. The choice for salvation is with us.

 

[Aidan K]

Because if you're preordained to salvation then you're preordained to lead a moral life.

Surely a loving God would not ordain anyone to eternal damnation? Denies all logic imo

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Surely a loving God would not ordain anyone to eternal damnation? Denies all logic imo

I agree with you 100%, predestination is a horrible, and untrue idea, that hurts the faith of believers, and denies God's character of gentleness and love. Preach it!!!

 

[St_Worm2]

Friends I struggle with understanding the term. If its preordained that some are doomed to hell and the others for salvation,why bother leading a moral life if your fates already sealed?

Hi Aidan, first, and perhaps most importantly, we do our best to lead a "moral life" because it pleases the Lord when we do so. Pleasing God is a Christian's raison d'être, our "reason to be" if you will, and I think it is that desire that is the most common characteristic among true Christians. We love Him and we want to do what pleases Him, that's why we "bother" BTW, I fail miserably at that a lot of the time, but I know God is always there waiting for me with open arms to forgive me and help me get back on my feet!

*(I'm going to include some Scripture verses now so you can see what God has to say about all this as well. You should be able to read them just by moving your mouse over top of them)

Yes, those who will be "saved" are "chosen in Him" and "predestined to adoption" by God from "before the foundation of the world" .. Ephesians 1:4-6 (He is, after all, from everlasting to everlasting), and I don't believe that anyone who truly loves God and wants to be with Him at the end of the age will be going to Hell instead ..

We preach the Gospel to every creature principally because God has commanded us to (Mark 16:15) and then, quite frankly, because we cannot know who will and who will not "believe" (only God knows that at this point). We are saved by Grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8), but "faith comes by hearing..." (Romans 10:17). For whatever reason, God saw fit to make us part of the process of coming to Him through faith.

Are you interested in becoming a Christian? I truly hope you are If you want to know more about Christianity and/or how you might go about becoming one, just ask me or one of the other Christians here and we'll be glad to help you as best we can (you are welcome to "Start a Conversation" with any of us as well if you have questions you'd prefer to ask off the WWW).

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - there are a few who believe that God works iniquity into the hearts of those headed for Hell and in so doing 'forces' them against their will to turn away from Him and perish, but don't worry, that is not a Biblical principle. God doesn't "tempt" anyone to sin .. James 1:13 .. much less "cause" them to ..

"If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart
that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved"
Romans 10:9​

 

[paul1149]

Our moral sense is a reflection of God, part of our being "made in His own image". When Abraham appealed to God for the cities of the plains of Sodom, he said, "surely the judge of the whole earth will do what is right". And He will. We can have absolute assurance that our salvation is in the hands of the best possible judge, one who also loves us so much He sent His only-begotten Son to lay down His life on our behalf, to reconcile us back to Himself.

While the predestination scriptures are powerful, they must be taken along with the ones that teach free will, some of which have been already cited here. God does not violate free will. Going all the way back, we see this paradigm in effect in the Garden. God certainly did not cause Adam to sin. He warned Adam against sinning. But He gave Adam the freedom to sin. And while He permitted the consequences of that sin, He did not abandon man, though he had every right to.

Does God know who will accept His free salvation and who will not? I'm sure He does. "He knows the end before the beginning." But He limits Himself in His dealings with man out of respect for us (indeed, if He did not, would we not be obliterated?), in order that our free will will not be impinged, and that our decisions and their consequences will play out as they ought. In this way, those who come to the Lord will do so for the right reasons, because they truly want the His rightful loving reign, and not because they were programmed or coerced.

One of the points that John Wesley brings out in his masterpiece sermon, Free Grace, which I urge you to read, is that we must not elevate any doctrine in the Bible to the point where it contradicts another. We do that when we understand the Biblical doctrine of predestination fatalistically.

edit: updated link

 

[elopez]

Friends I struggle with understanding the term.

Yes, predestination is a usually seen as a troublesome idea. Yet, it is Biblical. What it means is usually misconstrued, and there are varying takes on predestination which further complicates the matter.

Ephesians 1:4-5; Romans 8:28-30; 1 Peter 1:20; Ephesians 1:11-12.

As you can see the idea is Biblical. What you also notice is that anytime the Bible mentions predestination it is in strict relation to Salvation.

If its preordained that some are doomed to hell and the others for salvation,why bother leading a moral life if your fates already sealed?

The Bible does not mention a predestination of those to Hell. Again, it is restricted to Salvation when it is mentioned in Scriptures. God must act and intervene as to save man as man is incapable of saving himself. This is not so with God and sin, since man sins on his own.

 

[Aidan K]

Hi Aidan, first, and perhaps most importantly, we do our best to lead a "moral life" because it pleases the Lord when we do so. Pleasing God is a Christian's raison d'être, our "reason to be" if you will, and I think it is that desire that is the most common characteristic among true Christians. We love Him and we want to do what pleases Him, that's why we "bother" BTW, I fail miserably at that a lot of the time, but I know God is always there waiting for me with open arms to forgive me and help me get back on my feet!

*(I'm going to include some Scripture verses now so you can see what God has to say about all this as well. You should be able to read them just by moving your mouse over top of them)

Yes, those who will be "saved" are "chosen in Him" and "predestined to adoption" by God from "before the foundation of the world" .. Ephesians 1:4-6 (He is, after all, both omniscient and omnipresent), and I don't believe that anyone who truly 'wants' to be with God at the end of the age will be going to Hell instead ..

We preach the Gospel to every creature principally because God has commanded us to (Mark 16:15) and then, quite frankly, because we cannot know who will and who will not "believe" (only God knows that at this point). We are saved by Grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8), but "faith comes by hearing..." (Romans 10:17). For whatever reason, God saw fit to make us part of the process of coming to Him through faith.

Are you interested in becoming a Christian? I truly hope you are If you want to know more about Christianity and/or how you might go about becoming one, just ask me or one of the other Christians here and we'll be glad to help you as best we can (you are welcome to "Start a Conversation" with any of us as well if you have questions you'd prefer to ask off the WWW).

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - there are a few who believe that God works iniquity into the hearts of those headed for Hell and in so doing 'forces' them against their will to turn away from Him and perish, but don't worry, that is not a Biblical principle (God doesn't even "tempt" anyone to sin .. James 1:13 .. much less "cause" them to). God, who "justifies the wicked" (Romans 4:5) and desires all to come to Him (1 Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9) takes no pleasure in the death of anyone (Ezekiel 33:11) ..

"If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart
that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved"
Romans 10:9​

Dear brother David, thank you so much for your offer of speaking to me about becoming a Christian. However, it's unnecessary as for the most of my life I was a practising Roman Catholic. I deliberately chose to cease being a Catholic and a Christian as my view of the divine has changed. Once again, thank you for your kindness David

 

[St_Worm2]

Dear brother David, thank you so much for your offer of speaking to me about becoming a Christian. However, it's unnecessary as for the most of my life I was a practising Roman Catholic. I deliberately chose to cease being a Catholic and a Christian as my view of the divine has changed. Once again, thank you for your kindness David

Hi Aidan, you're welcome. I assumed with your interest in predestination that you might have been considering a move (I didn't know you'd already made one)!

The idea of predestination is not found in the Baha'i faith, is it?

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't think "predestined" means necessarily embracing fatalism. Luther in his Bondage of the Will is often quoted, but what is often ignored is that in his commentary on Genesis, he spoke out against a fatalistic approach to faith.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Hi,

Predestination in my opinion is a false idea. The bible says that:

1Ti 2:4 [God ] would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Also those that perish are not those God chooses, but rather those who choose to do evil, who don't love doing good.

2Th 2:10 -12 and with all deceit of unrighteousness for them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God is love. Can you imagine love hating something so much it must be sent to hell for no reason, other than God wanted it. That is just stupid. God sends the evil to hell, those who oppose the character of love, who hurt and hate others repentantly. The choice for salvation is with us.

Amen. Predestination is a false doctrine.

God so loved the WORLD, that ALL who BELIEVE upon Him will have ETERNAL LIFE.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

Friends I struggle with understanding the term. If its preordained that some are doomed to hell and the others for salvation,why bother leading a moral life if your fates already sealed?

Because those who don't lead a moral life were predestined to damnation. If you're predestined one way or the other, it naturally makes sense that all of your thoughts and actions were predestined as well.

 

[Aidan K]

Hi Aidan, you're welcome. I assumed with your interest in predestination that you might have been considering a move (I didn't know you'd already made one)!

The idea of predestination is not found in the Baha'i faith, is it?

I believe that when I die I start to journey through the world's of God. The rapidity at which I travel depends on how I have lived my life .

 

[Leet]

IMO the only thing humans need to know about the word "predestination" is this: God knows the fate of all. It's actually pretty simple if you don't make a huge doctrine out of it.

 

[ScottA]

Friends I struggle with understanding the term. If its preordained that some are doomed to hell and the others for salvation,why bother leading a moral life if your fates already sealed?

The books that God is said to open, are opened because they are...now being written? No, because they are already written.

But it is not as it would seem. It is not that you have a choice, as if you could just go easy on yourself and just roll with whatever. No. You/we may not know it until it happens, but we are who we are [already]...and we will do what we will do. So, if you are not the type to take things lying down, then you will get up...'cause that's who you are [already].

Understand something: History, is...His story...God's story. You/we are characters in that story. He knows the story. You/we are just hearing/living it for the first time. Let me ask you something: How's your story going? Just how would you like the remaining chapters to go, to end?

So, you either stand up, or lie down...not because it's a choice...but because, it's NOT a choice...you are who you are...and you ARE going to do what you will do.

Understand something more: God's story, the one that is written and the books are closed, 'cause they are finished already...that you are just hearing/living for the first time? He made it up. That is what "created" means. Oh, and He made it in His image too. It's a picture. Let there be light? Lights, camera, action! Like that. Or rather, like this: Time is an illusion, matter is energy (Light), and space is a void. That is what the universe is made up of.

But there is "good news"...and you have probably heard it: He sent His [only] begotten...STOP. What is "only begotten" mean? It means...we are written in this story...in pencil...UNLESS we take a serious good look at that good news.

But, hey, we are who we are, and we CAN'T HELP but do what we will do...and it will all be fine. Relax.

 

[98cwitr]

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[aiki]

Friends I struggle with understanding the term. If its preordained that some are doomed to hell and the others for salvation,why bother leading a moral life if your fates already sealed?

Why are you struggling with a concept from a faith you've abandoned? Seems rather a waste of time. If you don't get it, that's okay; you don't believe in it anyway, right?

The Bible is very clear about election and predestination. What it is not clear on is how these things work on God's end. Calvinists emphasize God's sovereignty and go to some rather extreme - and even obscene - lengths to explain election as the effect of divine sovereignty. As a Molinist I don't deny election, or the fullness of God's sovereignty, but I do think Scripture plainly teaches both election and human free will (though only in a soft-libertarian sense) which Molinism works - quite effectively, I believe - to reconcile. If you are determined to better understand election, I would urge you to read Kenneth Keathley's primer on Molinism entitled "Salvation and Sovereignty: A Molinist Approach". He replaces TULIP with ROSES and the smell of the doctrine of election is much improved.

Selah.

 

[Job8]

Friends I struggle with understanding the term. If its preordained that some are doomed to hell and the others for salvation,why bother leading a moral life if your fates already sealed?

But your fate is NOT already sealed. That is false teaching. None are predestined to Heaven or to Hell. The purpose of predestination is to perfect those who believe and are saved. Read all the Scriptures pertaining to predestination and election. The Bible does not teach fatalism or determinism.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Friends I struggle with understanding the term. If its preordained that some are doomed to hell and the others for salvation,why bother leading a moral life if your fates already sealed?

We have a covenant relationship with God, if we do our part then you can be sure that God will do His part.