"prayer of a righteous man availeth much" and the praying to saints

[Scottish Knight]

Hello, I am looking for some help. I'm in a discussion about the prayers to the saints and the main verse being used to defend is the argument that the prayers of a righteous man availeth much and the saints in heaven are the most rihteous of them all. I wrote a reply but I'd like feedback from more knowledgable folk on the topic:

My reply:

I've been thinking very carefully about prayer. It' really shows how interconnected everything is, that by talking about praying to the saints has taken me looking into praying to God, justification, righteousness, a lot of things to grapple with!

I think the view that more holier people have more effective prayers is dangerous as it leads to an emphasis being placed on the the one praying rather than the God who is being prayed to. The passage in James is found in the same chapter as praying for the sick.and James says there "and the prayer of faith will save the sick" (James 5:15)

SO who is the righteous man? It's the man who prays in faith. As Paul points out "Abraham believed God and it was accredited to him as righteousness". Since the saints in heaven and the saints on earth have been made righteous by faith then our prayers will be heard the same, wouldn;t they? Of course the saints in heaven don't struggle with sin like we do on earth. But Romans 8:26 says "likewise the Spirit helps us also in our weakness. For we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings that cannot be uttered". This is a beautiful passage how the Spirit purifies our prayers to make them aceptable before God from all our sin.

James also warns though in chapter 4 how these christians were not being answered because they were praying for their own pleasures and sin. It wasn't in faith in God because they were praying for things revealed by God to be wrong. If our prayers are for good things in accordance with God's word, then shouldn't we expect God to answer them, and answer them just as much as the departed saints? And if our prayers proceed from our own selfishness, then praying to the saints would have no effect since the request itself would be against God's wishes and the saints couldn't pray for such a prayer.

1st Peter I think can be understood as speaking of the law, since we all do wickedness, none of our actions are entirely free from sin, only someone who is pure or righteous can be heard. However since we pray in Christ who is righteous, purified by the Spirit, and covered in His righteousness we can indeed come before God in prayer knowing He will hear us. The sinner who is not in Christ has no such promise. Or it can be seen in terms of fruit. A believer will always produce fruits of righteousness, so the one who prays in faith can know he is heard. Otherwise we get this atitude where we never know if our prayers ar heard, if we are good enough, if our actions and motives are righteous enough to be heard. And I can quite well see how this worry can lead us to pray to the saints and ask for their perfect intercession for us

Is this right? Is there a possibility that one christians prayers are more effectual than another? and can it be said that the saints in heaven are in some way more righteous than us? Any thoughts would be appreciated

 

[Scottish Knight]

and this is the answer I got back for reference, still thinkign how to reply:

I, too, can see how this could lead us to the Saints. Though, I'm not sure this is necessarily a bad thing. I say this because I think the righteousness of the Saints with Christ would trump mine even on my best day. I say this not because I don't believe Christ makes me righteous through His sacrifice; but because I live in varying degrees of sin and repentance and varying degrees of openness to the prompting of the Holy Spirit. So, I may be praying for unselfish things without realizing I need to first come to repentance for sins in my life. Even when coming to repentance, I will not be forgiven, if I have not forgiven others. Does that make sense? That doesn't mean I intend to abandon prayer and let the Saints do all the praying for me.

I'm just thinking out loud.

 

[Elderone]

I'm in a discussion about the prayers to the saints and the main verse being used to defend is the argument that the prayers of a righteous man availeth much and the saints in heaven are the most rihteous of them all.

It would seem the verse being used is James 5:16.Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Nothing there about saints in heaven being the most righteous of all. Are you perchance debating/discussing this with a person of the Roman church?

Matthew Henry puts it this way.

Jam_5:16 directs private Christians to pray one for another; so that here we have all sorts of prayer (ministerial, social, and secret) recommended.
V. The great advantage and efficacy of prayer are declared and proved: The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much, whether he pray for himself or for others: witness the example of Elias, Jam_5:17, Jam_5:18. He who prays must be a righteous man; not righteous in an absolute sense (for this Elias was not, who is here made a pattern to us), but righteous in a gospel sense; not loving nor approving of any iniquity. If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear my prayer, Psa_66:18. Further, the prayer itself must be a fervent, in-wrought, well-wrought prayer. It must be a pouring out of the heart to God; and it must proceed from a faith unfeigned. Such prayer avails much.

Hope this is of some help.

 

[Scottish Knight]

It would seem the verse being used is James 5:16.Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Nothing there about saints in heaven being the most righteous of all. Are you perchance debating/discussing this with a person of the Roman church?

Matthew Henry puts it this way.

Hope this is of some help.

Thanks it was
and close, I'm debating with some high anglicans/ anglo catholics (an it's just me doing all the arguing against it lol) but I think I'm winning most of the arguments

 

[Elderone]

Those types most often argue from tradition, their tradition, which usually has nothing to do with the Bible. Try to find Bible passages which refute what they are trying to sell.

Good luck. I no longer have the patience and suffer fools very badly.

 

[Scottish Knight]

Those types most often argue from tradition, their tradition, which usually has nothing to do with the Bible. Try to find Bible passages which refute what they are trying to sell.

Good luck. I no longer have the patience and suffer fools very badly.

Well, I'm optimisitic it's been a good argument and it's led to some thoughtful points and I still think I want to explore more about prayer and what it means. I appreciate your input

 

[Elderone]

Check out this about prayer.

 

[Rhamiel]

I am sure Vicky could help you with a deeper understanding of this, she is a very wise young lady

 

[Scottish Knight]

I am sure Vicky could help you with a deeper understanding of this, she is a very wise young lady

Oh we discuss everything and she agrees with me

 

[Rhamiel]

Oh we discuss everything and she agrees with me

she does not see the prayers of the saints as helpful?

 

[Scottish Knight]

she does not see the prayers of the saints as helpful?

She doesn't believe the saints are more righteous than we are, since we are all clothed in Christ's righteousness and not our own, or that our prayers are less effective than theirs. She helped me to understand the verses properly in this way

 

[Rhamiel]

She doesn't believe the saints are more righteous than we are, since we are all clothed in Christ's righteousness and not our own, or that our prayers are less effective than theirs. She helped me to understand the verses properly in this way

interesting
I hope all is well with both of you
you both are regularly in my prayers

 

[Scottish Knight]

interesting
I hope all is well with both of you
you both are regularly in my prayers

Thanks Rhamiel, I appreciate that Good to see you again. How are you doing? We remember you in our prayers too