Pentecostalism and orthadoxy

Hi Art,
I grew up Baptist. I've only been to an AOG Church once, but I think I can give you some basic differences.

1 - Our Worship. The Orthodox Divine Liturgy (our main Church service) is a reverent, holy, beautiful, well-ordered service. It is full of chanting and incense and prayers. My understanding of AOG is that it's relatively disordered in comparison.

2 - We follow all of Holy Tradition. Many Churches follow only the Bible (or so they say.) We do not. We follow all of Holy Tradition, the Bible included. Since it was the Orthodox Church that decided what books belong in the Bible (it didn't just fall from the sky in a neat leatherbound edition ) we believe that only the Bible is only properly interpreted within the rest of Orthodox Tradition.

Actually, there's a pamphlet called "What Orthodox Christians Believe" that explains our beliefs. It might be better to read that and then ask more questions as they arise. I hope this helps a little, and please, ask as many questions as you need.

Moses

Greetings Art,

Moses already touched on one of the main differences between Orthodoxy and Pentecostalism. In Orthodox worship we follow an ancient liturgy with all of it's prayers, hymns, and Scripture readings. We do not have parishioners prophesying or praying in tongues during the service since that would be disorderly and disrupt the overall flow of the Liturgy.

I guess the main thing that distinguishes Pentecostal churches from other Protestant bodies is their emphasis on spiritual gifts, especially speaking in tongues. Although the Church does not deny that these gifts are in operation in today we do not stress them or place such a heavy emphasis upon them. There are many instances within the last several hundred years where these gifts have been manifested and exercised within the Church. Interestingly enough, Saint Symeon, one of my favorite teachers, often preahed about being baptized in the Holy Spirit and cultivating a deeper relationship with the Holy Spirit. In his writings and teachings, he often quoted from the same verses Pentecostals use now to validate their ideas regarding praying in tongues and being baptized in the Holy Ghost.

Regarding the OP, I am a recent convert from a charismatic church and our pastor was an AoG pastor for several years. Moses and Patristic pretty much covered everything that I could say in an open forum without getting into some things that I wouldn't be comfortable with. PM me if you would like to talk further about some of these things.

I'm an inquirer into Orthodoxy and I was raised in the Assembly of God church. I still attend an AoG church with my wife when I can't make the drive to Divine Liturgy. I have found many, many people who have "come out" of the pentecostal/charismatic movement into Orthodoxy. And I find more every day. I know a woman at my Orthodox church whose father is an Assembly of God pastor (I'm pretty sure that's right -anyway, he's a Pentecostal pastor at least). I myself have "preached" in the Pentecostal movement and served as a minister (not a very good one).

The differences given by those above are important ones. I'd like to add to all that was posted above by stating what "drove" me to seek Orthodoxy - the sacramental life. To me this is the biggest difference between Orthodoxy and Pentecostalism (or any number of other churches for that matter). I'm only just beginning to understand what I've been missing. I'm having to un-learn so much. For example - there exist in Pentecostalism an extreme emphasis on spiritual reality. To the extent, almost, that the material is almost evil and damned. But in Orthodoxy, all of creation is a sacrament offered to God. Sin of course has distorted what God deemed "Very Good", but the world never lost God's love. In fact, Christ came to bring true reality to every man. He said, in fact, that He came to give life and life more abundantly.

We so often want God to fit into our neat world, but instead we are to transformed into the Heavenly Kingdom - the ultimate realization of purpose. In Pentecostalism there is much emphasis on God's salvific purpose - but so little on the redemptive purpose of Christ. Christ did not come to save us from the world - He came to save the world - "for the life of the world." I was asked the other the day if I was a "dispensationalist". I simply laughed at that and said, "No. I'm an Incarnationalist!"

Also, in Pentecostalism (and I'm very, very thankful for what I learned in the churches I grew up in, and in the one I'm at now) there tends to be (especially in the more conservative movements) an emphasis on holiness and right-living. I praise God for that! But often you are told to 'live right!" but not given the instruction and the tools to do it. How often did I hear preachers say (and heard myself say it), "You've gotta walk in the Spirit, and you'll not fulfill the lust of the flesh!", and I'd walk away wondering, "How!!!??? What is walking in the spirit!? What is it!?!" In Orthodoxy I feel that I've found the answer.

Rusty

artofwar said:

Ok here goes.
I was born into a Baptist family and went there until my teenage years. I am now heavily involved with my AOG pentecostal church here in Australia and a leader at that. Ok here is my question, what is the main differences between where i am at now and the Orthadox church? I mean the REAL differences not the little things that dont really mean much if you know what i mean? if anyone could help I would be greateful

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Hi Art! !

The answers you've gotten are pretty good ones. I hope they touched on what you were trying to get at.

Katherine

Dear artofwar,

I pray that you will find most Orthodox to be very nice and accepting--nearly all of us here in TAW are converts to Orthodoxy and at one time had the same kinds of questions you're asking now, so don't be afraid to ask us anything!

Orthodox are probably quite a bit different from what you are used to. We change very little from century to century. Our typical liturgy was composed by St. John Chrysostom in the fourth century and we have not changed it since. Our worship is very reverent but it also engages the senses, and is to a degree based on ancient Jewish liturgy (we LOVE Psalms) and on Biblical descriptions of heavenly worship.

Let us know if you have any more questions!

In XC,
Matrona

Art,

I can't remember the verse right now, but there is on in the NT that says something like this "And Jesus taught many more things, more than can be written in all the books."

The Traditions we refer to have two different forms. The "T"raditions (capital "T") come from the Apostles and the early church fathers. These are the way to do worship and other doctrinal issues. We know these came from the Apostles because of early church writings. St. John Crystrostom (sp?) wrote out the Liturgy in the 4th Century, but he was basically writing what had been done in worship since 33 A.D.

The traditions we refer to (small "t") are the habits and cultural practices that have come from ethnic backgrounds or regional practices. These are not considered essential.

I was a Pentachostal (Holiness, trinitarian) and I still can pray in tongues. But I have discovered that this really isn't important. It may proove in to some that I have the Holy Spirit inside of me, but I have learned that prooving this is not important to me (or the members of the Orthodox Faith). What matters to me is that the Holy Spirit does dwell in me and the manifestations in the form of "fruit" is enough. (Yes, I know AoG also recognize that the demonstration based upon the "fruit of the spirit" is more important than speaking in tongues, but other readers here might not realize this.)

What I am seeking is full communion with Jesus. I want the full and real Eucharistic experience. For in Orthodoxy, Jesus's body becomes the bread and His blood becomes the wine (or vice versa). When consumed, we take in the fullfillment of the Gospel in a way that being slain in the spirit or prophesizing or any other charismatic experience does not even come close to comparing to.

And worship. I loved worship in the Pentachostal movement at the time. I am not beind disrespectful to your church's worship. (If you know "Christ Church" in Nashville, that was my church for years and years. It is famous for its worship music and even has published CD's.)

But I have found a worship that is more real to me than I have ever exeperienced before. Even when worshipping in a room of 3,000 people with a 300 member Choir and professional sound systems, it does not compare to the worship in a tiny unairconditioned church with 18 adults present. The worship is so powerful. I believe while we are chanting, that angels can be heard mixing their voices to ours. The reverence for God is so deep and abiding.

I have never felt the peace I feel at worship in that tiny Orthodox church, surrounded by icons (kind of like paintings of Saints, but more special than any painting), and smell the incense (which symbolizes our "sacrifice of praise" and reverence to God.) We have candles that also represent the same thing but also are for prayers and reminders that the Trinity is our Light and the path of our salvation.

Well, I guess I didn't really answer your question. There are differences between the two that are hard to explain. Think about going in a time machine and worshiping with the first century Christians. That is worship indeed!

/me puts mop and bucket away

Oblio, a little off-topic, but whose gorgeous cat is that in your signature?

Moses & Katherines

Cool. I love animals.

artofwar said:

Ok here goes.
I was born into a Baptist family and went there until my teenage years. I am now heavily involved with my AOG pentecostal church here in Australia and a leader at that. Ok here is my question, what is the main differences between where i am at now and the Orthadox church? I mean the REAL differences not the little things that dont really mean much if you know what i mean? if anyone could help I would be greateful

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Dear Art:

When I was living with my mom, I was forced to go to the various Baptist and AoG churches that they visited.

One difference that strikes me: There are no "Amen" and "Preach it brother" heard from the Orthodox Christian congregation while the pastor is preaching.

Exception: The Pascha Sermon of St. John Chrysostom - your gotta read this one. You will love the charismatic style of St. John. The Priest says, "He was embittered "(referring to the devil) and we repeat 'He was embittered'. Then the priest says many times "Christ is Risen." and we respond "Indeed He is Risen." This is the best you can get.

We can present more differences of belief as we go:

The Eucharist - the real Body and Blood of Christ - not just a symbol

Holy Lent with special prayers and fastings

Liturgical life vs free-style worship

Sacramental life vs. Sing songs

Living the Bible vs. Studying it.

Holy Confession vs. altar calls

but primarily I wanted to bump this thread that got buried last night.

Thanks, Oblio (Reader Chris) for the clean-up job. Sparkingly clean again!

Lovingly in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

artofwar said:

I always assumed tradition was just habits handed down from Pastor to pastor or in orthadox case priest to priest and that they are not biblical traditions that are in the Bible, and how do you know they are Christian traditions?

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Hi art! Welcome to TAW!

First of all, we should all be honest and admit that no church restricts their worship to things that can be found in the Bible. I bet your church has Sunday School, right? Probably a piano, an altar call, a coffee maker, all sorts of stuff that is nowhere to be found in the Bible. How do you know they are Christian traditions? Furthermore, how do you know the Bible is a Christian tradition? It doesn't say "Bible" anywhere in the Bible.

Don't get me wrong. We love the Bible. In fact, I even kissed a big gold-covered one at church this morning We believe everything in it is right. But, that doesn't mean that everything that's not in it is wrong. The Bible wasn't intended to be the be-all and end-all of Christianity. There was never a meeting where the Evangelists sat down with Paul, Peter and James and said "OK guys, we're gonna write the New Testament. Make sure you put in everything a person needs to know to live the perfect Christian life, because after John dies God will never speak to humanity again."

That's my problem with Bible-alone theology: it treats Christianity as a dead religion and puts so much distance between us and God. I'm much more comfortable with the idea that God is still talking to us, rather than thinking that He gave us a cryptic instruction manual 2000 years ago and left us all alone to figure it out.

We also recognize that there was a Church hundreds of years before there was a Bible. The Church compiled the Bible, so if you think about it the Bible itself is Holy Tradition.

Finally, (sorry, I tend to ramble) it should be noted that our idea of Tradition isn't so much oral. We have lots of books of writings, many of which predate the Bible, that our Tradition comes from. So, there's really no chance of things getting distorted as time goes by, since we are so fond of writing stuff down.

P.S. (I was kidding when I said "finally" up there.) We are "Eastern Orthodox" because we are historically and culturally rooted in the East: Moscow, Constantinople, Greece, the Middle East, etc. The other side of the Great Schism, which is now the Roman Catholic Church, and all the churches that broke from it, which are generally called Protestant, constitute the "West." So, there's really no Western Orthodox faith. There are "western rite" Orthodox churches in America that are intentionally set up to feel more like a high-church Protestant church whlie retaining Orthodox theology, but they are very few and far between, and they are still "Eastern Orthodox" anyway. They are only superficially different (their priests wear Anglican-style vestments and they sing more western-sounding music) to make American converts feel more at home.

What do you mean by western sounding music?

Matthias said:

What do you mean by western sounding music?

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Non-chant Protestant type hymns

ufonium2 said:

Hi art! Welcome to TAW!

First of all, we should all be honest and admit that no church restricts their worship to things that can be found in the Bible. I bet your church has Sunday School, right? Probably a piano, an altar call, a coffee maker, all sorts of stuff that is nowhere to be found in the Bible. How do you know they are Christian traditions? Furthermore, how do you know the Bible is a Christian tradition? It doesn't say "Bible" anywhere in the Bible.

Don't get me wrong. We love the Bible. In fact, I even kissed a big gold-covered one at church this morning We believe everything in it is right. But, that doesn't mean that everything that's not in it is wrong. The Bible wasn't intended to be the be-all and end-all of Christianity. There was never a meeting where the Evangelists sat down with Paul, Peter and James and said "OK guys, we're gonna write the New Testament. Make sure you put in everything a person needs to know to live the perfect Christian life, because after John dies God will never speak to humanity again."

That's my problem with Bible-alone theology: it treats Christianity as a dead religion and puts so much distance between us and God. I'm much more comfortable with the idea that God is still talking to us, rather than thinking that He gave us a cryptic instruction manual 2000 years ago and left us all alone to figure it out.

We also recognize that there was a Church hundreds of years before there was a Bible. The Church compiled the Bible, so if you think about it the Bible itself is Holy Tradition.

Finally, (sorry, I tend to ramble) it should be noted that our idea of Tradition isn't so much oral. We have lots of books of writings, many of which predate the Bible, that our Tradition comes from. So, there's really no chance of things getting distorted as time goes by, since we are so fond of writing stuff down.

P.S. (I was kidding when I said "finally" up there.) We are "Eastern Orthodox" because we are historically and culturally rooted in the East: Moscow, Constantinople, Greece, the Middle East, etc. The other side of the Great Schism, which is now the Roman Catholic Church, and all the churches that broke from it, which are generally called Protestant, constitute the "West." So, there's really no Western Orthodox faith. There are "western rite" Orthodox churches in America that are intentionally set up to feel more like a high-church Protestant church whlie retaining Orthodox theology, but they are very few and far between, and they are still "Eastern Orthodox" anyway. They are only superficially different (their priests wear Anglican-style vestments and they sing more western-sounding music) to make American converts feel more at home.

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This is a great post.

Are Roman Catholic hymms deemed Protestant, too?