pantheism in the bible?

[pantheos]

Hello,

I found this post that very much intrigued me, I have never before seen a person use the bible to support pantheism. What do the Christians here think of this? Is this a valid interpretation of the bible?

Jesus is God in the same sense that a wave is the ocean. The wave is in the ocean, and the ocean is in the wave, and so they are one, but the ocean is greater than the wave. When Jesus denied being God in the synoptic Gospels (Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19), he was speaking as just the wave, that is his temporary physical self. But in the Gospel of John, when Jesus says that he is God, he was identifying himself with the ocean, recognizing that ultimately there are no individuals, there is only God, the universal Self that we are all a part of.

"the Father is in me, and I in the Father"
--Jesus, John 10:38

"I and the Father are one."
--Jesus, John 10:3

"the Father is greater than I"
--Jesus, John 14:28

"For in [God] we live and move and have our being."
--Acts 17:28

"I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained. Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."
--Jesus, Thomas 77

"Christ is all, and is in all"
--Paul, Colossians 3:11

"You see, there are two ways of thinking "I am God." If you think, "I here, in my physical presence and in my temporal character, am God," then you are mad and have short-circuited the experience. You are God, not in your ego, but in your deepest being, where you are at one with the nondual transcendent."
--Joseph Campbell, The Power of Myth

 

[dignitized]

the trouble comes when you remove a quote from context. ALWAYS verify scripture in context or you risk silliness like what is above.

"Christ is all, and is in all"
--Paul, Colossians 3:11

is not even a full verse being quoted! lol

the full quote in the KJV is:

Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

kinda changes things to see them in context huh?

In all refers not to Christ being in all of creation, but rather that Christ is in all believers and to believers, Christ IS all - Christ is everything.

Check over the rest of the scriptures and I'll wager that they are also taken out of context.

 

[dignitized]

I just noticed that the fullest quote comes not from scripture at all but from a heretical text! lol

 

[CaliforniaKid]

The Bible says that God is the creator and sustainer of all things. If God ceased to exist, then so would all of existence. So there is a sense in which God is present everywhere and in everything.

I personally suspect that the universe is "a figment of God's imagination", so to speak. In the beginning there was nothing but God-- his infinite spirit, or consciousness, or intelligence, or whatever you want to call him. Then he thought all of this into being. That doesn't mean none of this is real, because an infinite mind could imagine something infinitely real. Just a bit of bizarre philosophy for ya. That's all only my personal speculation, but it doesn't contradict the Bible.

In any case, I would make a distinction between the statements "everything is God" (which the Bible essentially forbids), and "God is everything" (which as you noted is taught in Colossians 3:11). Even the latter is a dubious statement from a Christian perspective; it is more correct, perhaps, to say that God is in everything.

The Bible is very clear that Jesus is one with God in a unique way. His unity with Father and Spirit is very similar to the unity of Shiva, Brahma, and Vishnu in the Hindu tradition, if you are familiar with that.

I don't know if I answered your question, but opefully it's at least a start.

-CK

 

[Simonline]

Hello,

I found this post that very much intrigued me, I have never before seen a person use the bible to support pantheism. What do the Christians here think of this? Is this a valid interpretation of the bible?

No. Absolutely not. Pantheism is Eastern metaphysics and as such has no part in the Truth. It is a Satanic deception designed to deceive man into destroying, in his person, the very image in which he has been created. Humans are personal precisely because God is Personal.

The Messiah has never denied his Divinity though he has not always declared it in what is, to the modern Western mind, the most blatant and obvious way.

Neither has he ever denied the Personal Nature of God. If God is non-personal then what is the basis of human personality, since no creature can ever be greater than its creator (water flows downhill, not uphill).

Such ideas are New Age trash intended to deceive the imbecilic and the guilible but those who know the Truth would never be taken in by such deception. See: A Crash Course On The New Age Movement by Elliott Miller Baker Book House ISBN 0-801062519, 1989, 260 pages

See also:

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0036a.html

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0054a.html

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0057b.html

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0058a.html

Simonline.

 

[Jason of Wyoming]

Hello,

I found this post that very much intrigued me, I have never before seen a person use the bible to support pantheism. What do the Christians here think of this? Is this a valid interpretation of the bible?

You've really got to look at the Old Testament for evidences of Pantheism. The resident apologists will try to explain it all away (as their Jewish Monotheistic forbearers did) but it's pretty obvious that the ancient Hebrews worshipped many other gods besides Yahweh. It's just that much like a common man, Yahweh got jealous of this, and demanded it stop!

 

[dignitized]

worshiping as God other things or other gods does not make those other gods real. After all - the romans worshiped as god many of the emperors - does that make them actually divine? nope. The Egyptians worshiped as gods the pharaohs - did that worship impart to them divinity? Nope. Just because the Hebrews went chasing after and worshiping false gods does not make those false gods any more real than imagining pigs with wings makes them real.

 

[CaDan]

Panentheism is probably a better term to describe the concept.

[bible]Psalm 139:7-16[/bible]

This is probably the clearest text in support of the concept.

 

[Silverlin]

Whatever you worship, Truth is still Truth and very real, nothing can change that.

 

[Jason of Wyoming]

Uh-oh. Looks liike Bevlina the deletion-Nazi has been at it again! hahahahaha

 

[Jipsah]

You've really got to look at the Old Testament for evidences of Pantheism.

You have to be willing to do a lot of violence to what the OT writers are saying, as well. Sure, you can take your toothpick and find sentences and sentence fragments that can be pulled out out of context to "prove" a pantheistic viewpoint. You could also do the same trick to "prove" that the OT writers were Republicans, Freemasons, Socialists, model railroad enthusiasts, or anything else that you please. It's just a matter of how intellectually dishonest you're willing to be.

The resident apologists will try to explain it all away (as their Jewish Monotheistic forbearers did)

Seeing that it was our Jewish Monotheistic forebears who wrote the OT, you might assume (and properly so) that the OT has a very Jewish Monotheistic tone. If you want to find pantheism there, you have to put it there your own self.

but it's pretty obvious that the ancient Hebrews worshipped many other gods besides Yahweh.

"Pretty obvious" typically meaning that you've decided that the ancient Hebrews were polytheists, and no amount of evidence to the contrary is going to change your mind. In the immortal words of Christy Kang, "Whatev...".

It's just that much like a common man, Yahweh got jealous of this, and demanded it stop!

What the Common Man usually declares is, "I don't give a hoot what it says, what I believe it means is..." and then he stuffs in whatever "meaning" suits him.

 

[Simonline]

You've really got to look at the Old Testament for evidences of Pantheism. The resident apologists will try to explain it all away (as their Jewish Monotheistic forbearers did) but it's pretty obvious that the ancient Hebrews worshipped many other gods besides Yahweh. It's just that much like a common man, Yahweh got jealous of this, and demanded it stop!

There is absolutely no evidence in the Bible (either Old or New Testament) for Pantheism since the very concept is utterly alien to the Judeo-Christian world view.

No one is denying that ancient Israel worshipped many false gods (since the evidence is clear in Scripture for all to see) and paid a heavy price as a result. Yahway's jealousy was/is nothing like the jealousy of a common man and I repudiate that odious comparison. Yahway's jealousy was righteous in nature and as such was entirely justified. Not only had Yahway created the whole of the Creation but out of that Creation he had taken the nation of Israel for himself (having both delivered them from bondage and redeemed them from sin at great personal cost) because he loved them with a passionate love to a degree beyond all human comprehension. It broke his heart to watch his beloved Israel repeatedly being unfaithful to him and prostituting herself with other gods who cared nothing for her except to deceive and destroy her. Who in their right mind would sit idly by and let that happen to their beloved?! What kind of lover would that be?! No human who was passionately in love with his beloved and knew that she was being unfaithful to him would sit idly by, that's for sure! Then why are we surprized when God also responds in the same way, doing all he can to woo Israel back to the 'marriage relationship' but eventually having to resort to harsh discipline because of Israel's repeated unfaithfulness?

There is no Pantheism in the Bible. God's Personality and Passion see to that!

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

Panentheism is probably a better term to describe the concept.

Psalm 139:7-167 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. 9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. 11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. 12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee. 13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. 14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. 15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

This is probably the clearest text in support of the concept.

No. Absolutely not! This is Omnipresence, not Pantheism. Patheism is the belief that everything (pan) is God (theos) not that God is omnipresent.

The Judeo-Christian Scriptures clearly teach that God is entirely separate from His Creation and whereas He by Nature is Eternal, Immutable, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient etc. His Creation is none of these things. Therefore Pantheism (and Panentheism - the belief that the physical Creation is a part of God like the physical body is a part of a human being (Jn.4:24)) are wholely unbiblical.

Simonline.

 

[Casstranquility]

Hello,

I found this post that very much intrigued me, I have never before seen a person use the bible to support pantheism. What do the Christians here think of this? Is this a valid interpretation of the bible?

I'd say it was, because it aligns with my interpretation of the Bible. So, I kind of have to agree, wouldn't you say?

I'm a Christian, but, I also believe in pantheism.

-Cassie

 

[mannysee]

Hi Pantheos,

I have seen a bible supporting a table with one short leg.

 

[BodhiGnostic]

No. Absolutely not! This is Omnipresence, not Pantheism. Patheism is the belief that everything (pan) is God (theos) not that God is omnipresent.

How can God be everywhere without being everything?

The Judeo-Christian Scriptures clearly teach that God is entirely separate from His Creation

The Bible teaches that God is immanent in creation:

"Am I a God near at hand," says the LORD, "And not a God afar off? Can anyone hide himself in secret places, So I shall not see him?" says the LORD; "Do I not fill heaven and earth?" says the LORD.
--Jeremiah 23:23-24

That God is the creation we're living in:

"For in [God] we live and move and have our being."
--Acts 17:28

And that God is so great that he can't be contained:

"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this temple which I have built!"
--1 Kings 8:27

The only thing that is so great that it can't be contained is all of existence. If God isn't all of existence, then he is contained in existence, and existence is therefore greater than God.

 

[dignitized]

How can God be everywhere without being everything?

Basic physics. Matter is not the same as space.

The only thing that is so great that it can't be contained is all of existence. If God isn't all of existence, then he is contained in existence, and existence is therefore greater than God.

All of existance can be contained. Existance has a beginning and and end - but before creation existed, God existed. When creation comes to an end - God will still exisit.

 

[mannysee]

How can God be everywhere without being everything?

everywhere=location, everything=object, location is not object.

The Bible teaches that God is immanent in creation:

"Am I a God near at hand," says the LORD, "And not a God afar off? Can anyone hide himself in secret places, So I shall not see him?" says the LORD; "Do I not fill heaven and earth?" says the LORD.
--Jeremiah 23:23-24

the context of the scripture here, is God railing on the false prophets in Israel who lie to God's people. Immanence in creation is not in view here. God states that he can see people no matter where they are.

That God is the creation we're living in:

"For in [God] we live and move and have our being."
--Acts 17:28

Again, context is important here. Paul is using a phrase here to the Athenian idol worshippers, which they understand from their own false religious background, so he can develop his argument for the true God. (see next sentence where Paul quotes from a poet of their own, from which he continues his argument for the true God).

And that God is so great that he can't be contained:

"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this temple which I have built!"
--1 Kings 8:27

Did i say context? Solomon having finished the temple, on the day of dedicating it to God, with Israel gathered for the dedication, prays a long prayer to God, in which he is expressing God's glory/greatness/majesty. His statement -verse 27- is one of reverence/humility before God. He is saying, in effect, that the things which have been created are not worthy of God. Nevertheless, God would place, "His name there" amongst Israel.

The only thing that is so great that it can't be contained is all of existence. If God isn't all of existence, then he is contained in existence, and existence is therefore greater than God.

Are you refering to objective existence? what is your meaning of contained?
All Objective existance IS contained within space/time.

"All things were created by him and for him"
"In him (Jesus Christ), all the fullness of deity lives". Colossians.

 

[BodhiGnostic]

Basic physics. Matter is not the same as space.

What do you think space is?

All of existance can be contained.

In what? Anything that exists is necessarily a part of existence.

Existance has a beginning and and end - but before creation existed, God existed. When creation comes to an end - God will still exisit.

Existence is everything that exists anywhere. If God exists and is eternal, then existence is eternal.

existence
n.

everything that exists anywhere

Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

 

[BodhiGnostic]

You've really got to look at the Old Testament for evidences of Pantheism. The resident apologists will try to explain it all away (as their Jewish Monotheistic forbearers did) but it's pretty obvious that the ancient Hebrews worshipped many other gods besides Yahweh. It's just that much like a common man, Yahweh got jealous of this, and demanded it stop!

That's polytheism, not pantheism.