Orthodoxy and the Rapture

[neon_knights]

I know most Orthodox dont believe in the Rapture, but what of these quotes from the Church Fathers?

Clement of Rome 68 or 97 AD
In Clement's Epistles to the Corinthians: "Let us take (for instance) Enoch...Noah...and the Lord saved by him the animals which, with one accord, entered into the ark. On account of his hospitality and godliness, Lot was saved out of Sodore when all the country round was punished by means of fire and brimstone, the Lord thus making it manifest that He does not forsake those that hope in Him."

Ephraem the Syrian (4th century AD) of the Byzantine Church wrote about the Lord's return as being imminent in his sermon "On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World." He stated, "All saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." Pseudo-Ephraem claims that his sermon was written by Ephraem of Nisibis (306 A.D.—373 A.D), considered to be the greatest figure in the history of the Syrian church."

The Shepherd of Hermas (95-150)
"You have escaped from the great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life serving the Lord blamelessly."

Victorinus (Well known by 270 and died in 303 A.D.)
His commentary notes in Revelation 6:14 indicate a pretrib reference: "'And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.' For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. 'And every mountain and the islands removed from their places' intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid persecution."

I generally didnt believe in the Rapture either, but these are pretty convincing.

 

[SoulFoodEater]

I know most Orthodox dont believe in the Rapture, but what of these quotes from the Church Fathers?

Clement of Rome 68 or 97 AD
In Clement's Epistles to the Corinthians: "Let us take (for instance) Enoch...Noah...and the Lord saved by him the animals which, with one accord, entered into the ark. On account of his hospitality and godliness, Lot was saved out of Sodore when all the country round was punished by means of fire and brimstone, the Lord thus making it manifest that He does not forsake those that hope in Him."

Ephraem the Syrian (4th century AD) of the Byzantine Church wrote about the Lord's return as being imminent in his sermon "On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World." He stated, "All saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." Pseudo-Ephraem claims that his sermon was written by Ephraem of Nisibis (306 A.D.—373 A.D), considered to be the greatest figure in the history of the Syrian church."

The Shepherd of Hermas (95-150)
"You have escaped from the great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life serving the Lord blamelessly."

Victorinus (Well known by 270 and died in 303 A.D.)
His commentary notes in Revelation 6:14 indicate a pretrib reference: "'And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.' For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. 'And every mountain and the islands removed from their places' intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid persecution."

I generally didnt believe in the Rapture either, but these are pretty convincing.

The 1st one is vague, because he is speaking figuratively, and he doesn't actually speak of a "taking up" to be with the Lord.

With the 2nd one. The only thing that I can think of why St Ephraim would have said such a thing, is directly because of St Paul in the 2 Thessalonians 2. He is taking his words,"All saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come", from these verses:

NKJ 2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

I have never understood these verses in the correct way. (I guess I need to read the Scriptures better.) So we are going to be gathered together with the Lord - but what does that mean? These verses are are puzzling. Why is St Paul warning us so severely about deception if we are going to be gathered together with the Lord?


It seems to me that the 3rd quote is speaking about the tribulation which all the wicked will be subjected to from the "wrath of the Lamb", when He is come in judgement. It seems to me that Hermes is speaking of not one, but two tribulations.


In the 4th one, I can only see that he is saying, "that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid persecution." And this is not uncommon for Christians to do.
I think it was St Cyril of Jerusalem who said that it is not cowardly to want to flee from persecution if you feel that you cannot endure the temptation.


Anyway, if you want to hear an interesting audio-lesson on this, listen to this man: http://www.pantocrator.net/en/logos/c_z/on_faith/018_The_Bible_and_the_Rapture.mp3

 

[MariaRegina]

The rapture is a novel teaching which first appeared around 1850 A.D.

Some Catholics told me that the Jesuits invented the whole thing just to see if some Protestants would believe such a thing. Is that true or a just an urban myth?

 

[MetanoiaHeart]

The rapture is a novel teaching which first appeared around 1850 A.D.

Some Catholics told me that the Jesuits invented the whole thing just to see if some Protestants would believe such a thing. Is that true or a just an urban myth?

Hmm...I haven't heard that one. I heard it started from a 15-year-old girl's dream.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Clement of Rome 68 or 97 AD
In Clement's Epistles to the Corinthians: "Let us take (for instance) Enoch...Noah...and the Lord saved by him the animals which, with one accord, entered into the ark. On account of his hospitality and godliness, Lot was saved out of Sodore when all the country round was punished by means of fire and brimstone, the Lord thus making it manifest that He does not forsake those that hope in Him."

yeah, but remember the animals and Noah still endured the Flood, only in the Ark rather than in the world. and Lot may have not been caught up in Sodom, but he was not wisked out by God to a place with no danger anymore (remember his wife).

Ephraem the Syrian (4th century AD) of the Byzantine Church wrote about the Lord's return as being imminent in his sermon "On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World." He stated, "All saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." Pseudo-Ephraem claims that his sermon was written by Ephraem of Nisibis (306 A.D.—373 A.D), considered to be the greatest figure in the history of the Syrian church."

yes but where and how are they gathered to the Lord? martyrdom? in Church faithfully worshipping God in the End to avoid the worldly confusion? does not necessarily mean there is a get out of Tribulation free card, they might just be martyred before it happens.

The Shepherd of Hermas (95-150)
"You have escaped from the great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life serving the Lord blamelessly."

this quotes that they remained faithful even in the Beast's presence, which means they escaped the Tribulation, not by God wisking them away, but rather by being faithful to Him no matter what.

Victorinus (Well known by 270 and died in 303 A.D.)
His commentary notes in Revelation 6:14 indicate a pretrib reference: "'And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.' For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. 'And every mountain and the islands removed from their places' intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid persecution."

yeah, and again, how are they removed? they could all be removed by being gunned down or beheaded before it gets really bad.

 

[choirfiend]

I know most Orthodox dont believe in the Rapture, but what of these quotes from the Church Fathers?

correction: No Orthodox believe in the rapture. It is an idea invented in the mid 1800s.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Margaret McDonald. But I think there were others like Darby I think who entertained such ideas. I would not be surprised if what MariaRegina said actually took place.

 

[Dorothea]

Hmm...I haven't heard that one. I heard it started from a 15-year-old girl's dream.

Yeah, Margaret MacDonald - Scotland. Then Darby and Scofield ran with it.

Anyhow, here's a good book on the End Times and all about the Rapture and everything from an Orthodox perspective. I've read it a few times, and my priest and others have said it's a good book on the end times.

Amazon.com: Ultimate Things: An Orthodox Christian Perspective on the End Times (9780962271397): D E Engleman, T Hopko: Books

 

[inconsequential]

What is the Orthodox understanding of Isaiah chapter 11? Does it refer to something that has already happened from our pov in time or is it yet to come?

 

[Antony in Tx]

Othodox bumper sticker:

IN CASE OF RAPTURE - CAN I HAVE YOUR CAR?