Orthodox Presbyterian Church

[Philonephius]

Does anyone here attend an OPC congregation, or attended/visited one in the past? What are your thoughts on it?

 

[mothcorrupteth]

I am an OPC member. I regularly attend an OPC in Morgantown, WV; and I have attended other OPCs in Huntsville, AL; Birmingham, AL; Denver, CO; and San Antonio, TX.

Mind you, my own beliefs are closer to the Free Church of Scotland (Continuing), so what I say is colored by that.

There is a great deal of variety in the OPC. She is a denomination that finds her identity in the stand Machen took against the liberalizing tendencies of what is now the PCUSA. There is not too much unity in much else. Everyone in the OPC agrees on the doctrines of grace, paedobaptism, the importance of presbyterial church-government, and Van Tillian presuppositional apologetics, but when it comes to eschatology and worship practices, no one OPC is guaranteed to resemble another. In its history, the OPC shifted away from Scottish Reformed theology and toward the Dutch Reformed, so there has been a trend toward amillennialism and more liberal interpretations of the regulative principle--but even so, you will find strong postmillennial minorities and even exclusive psalmodist churches within the OPC.

Pastors and preaching are similarly on a case-by-case basis. Our pastor right now, Jonathan Hutchison, has a strong redemptive-historical background, so most of his sermons funnel into showing how the obscure symbolisms of the biblical narrative reveal Christ and the Church. However, I've heard sermons that were more ethical in their focus, or that focused exclusively on eschatology.

My overall assessment of the OPC is that it needs to find more unity, and it should do so by returning to its Scottish roots. As it stands, the OPC seems to consist mostly of people who recently came to a Reformed background and of conservative people originally from other Reformed backgrounds who couldn't find anything closer to that background in their area. The OPC is not a melting pot that blends everybody into one doctrine; it's a mosaic of exiles who are putting aside their differences for the sake of keeping conservative Presbyterianism together.

 

[cajunhillbilly]

wow. An OPC in Morgantown? There wasn't one when I lived there. I left in 1975. I attended the Morgantown CMA church, though had problems with its premill stand. I remeber one sermon on the sovereignty of God by Pastor Doug Miller. Afterwards on the way out I said "Watch it. That almost sounded like Calvinism". LOL. I attended Dr Millers Church New Life Presby back when it was OPC. I understand it is now PCA.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Does anyone here attend an OPC congregation, or attended/visited one in the past? What are your thoughts on it?

While I've never attended or visited an OPC (because there are none near where I live), I have a very high opinion of the OPC. All denominations have their blemishes but in the relatively short time the OPC has existed, many distinguished Calvinists have been members of the OPC including: J. Gresham Machen (the founder), John Murray, Loraine Boettner, Cornelius Van Til, Greg Bahnsen, and Scott Oliphint. The OPC also has a close relationship with Westminster Theological Seminary (WTS).

The OPC is a conservative denomination within Presbyterianism. Here is a link to the homepage: Orthodox Presbyterian Church And here is a summary of beliefs:

What We Believe

"Our system of doctrine is the Reformed faith, also called Calvinism (because Calvin was the most important exponent of it during the Reformation). It pulls together the most significant doctrines taught in the Bible. These doctrines are set forth in the Westminster Confession of Faith and the Larger and Shorter Catechisms (with accompanying biblical references). Our system of doctrine is summarized in the following paragraphs.

The Bible, having been inspired by God, is entirely trustworthy and without error. Therefore, we are to believe and obey its teachings. The Bible is the only source of special revelation for the church today.

The one true God is personal, yet beyond our comprehension. He is an invisible spirit, completely self-sufficient and unbounded by space or time, perfectly holy and just, and loving and merciful. In the unity of the Godhead there are three "persons": the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

God created the heavens and the earth, and all they contain. He upholds and governs them in accordance with his eternal will. God is sovereign (in complete control) yet this does not diminish human responsibility.

Because of the sin of the first man, Adam, all mankind is corrupt by nature, dead in sin, and subject to the wrath of God. But God determined, by a covenant of grace, that sinners may receive forgiveness and eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ. Faith in Christ has always been the only way of salvation, in both Old Testament and New Testament times.

The Son of God took upon himself a human nature in the womb of the virgin Mary, so that in her son Jesus the divine and human natures were united in one person. Jesus Christ lived a sinless life and died on a cross, bearing the sins of, and receiving God's wrath for, all those who trust in him for salvation (his chosen ones). He rose from the dead and ascended into heaven, where he sits as Lord and rules over his kingdom (the church). He will return to judge the living and the dead, bringing his people (with glorious, resurrected bodies) into eternal life, and consigning the wicked to eternal punishment.

Those whom God has predestined unto life are effectually drawn to Christ by the inner working of the Spirit as they hear the gospel. When they believe in Christ, God declares them righteous (justifies them), pardoning their sins and accepting them as righteous, not because of any righteousness of their own, but by imputing Christ's merits to them. They are adopted as the children of God and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, who sanctifies them, enabling them increasingly to stop sinning and act righteously. They repent of their sins (both at their conversion and thereafter), produce good works as the fruit of their faith, and persevere to the end in communion with Christ, with assurance of their salvation.

Believers strive to keep God's moral law, which is summarized in the Ten Commandments, not to earn salvation, but because they love their Savior and want to obey him. God is the Lord of the conscience, so that men are not required to believe or do anything contrary to, or in addition to, the Word of God in matters of faith or worship.

Christ has established his church, and particular churches, to gather and perfect his people, by means of the ministry of the Word, the sacraments of baptism (which is to be administered to the children of believers, as well as believers) and the Lord's Supper (in which the body and blood of Christ are spiritually present to the faith of believers), and the disciplining of members found delinquent in doctrine or life. Christians assemble on the Lord's Day to worship God by praying, hearing the Word of God read and preached, singing psalms and hymns, and receiving the sacraments." - What We Believe

In summary, in my opinion, the OPC is one of the finest Presbyterian denominations in the United States.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

I left in 1975..

I was born in 1975. You make me feel young. I appreciate it.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

What keeps the OPC and PCA separate?

 

[mothcorrupteth]

I think the main thing that prevents a merger is that the PCA has an even bigger problem reigning in its fringes. The PCA has opened its doors to more charismatic forms of worship, has given birth to the Federal Vision heresy, and has allowed people like Tim Keller a voice. As disunified as the OPC is on things that traditionally distinguished Presbyterianism, there is deep solidarity on some of the common fundamentals of Reformed/Presbyterian theology that it sees the PCA as slowly compromising on. Personally, though, I think that if the OPC doesn't cinch up its views on the regulative principle, it's eventually going to drift in the same direction.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

I think the main thing that prevents a merger is that the PCA has an even bigger problem reigning in its fringes. The PCA has opened its doors to more charismatic forms of worship, has given birth to the Federal Vision heresy, and has allowed people like Tim Keller a voice. As disunified as the OPC is on things that traditionally distinguished Presbyterianism, there is deep solidarity on some of the common fundamentals of Reformed/Presbyterian theology that it sees the PCA as slowly compromising on. Personally, though, I think that if the OPC doesn't cinch up its views on the regulative principle, it's eventually going to drift in the same direction.

What is wrong with Tim Keller?

 

[mothcorrupteth]

He's made statements in support of the possibility of theistic evolution as an account of origins. His rhetoric takes advantage of the "it's a relationship, not a religion" fad and caricatures Christians who seek correct doctrine as idolatrous. His ministry advocates contemplative prayer. He has said recently that it is "misleading" to call homosexuality a damnable sin rather than simply something that is not conducive to human flourishing. Need I go on?

There's been some speculation in the OPC that the PCA could split along this line, because so many youth are seeing Keller as more "hip" than the oldfangled ways of somebody like Sproul or Pipa.

 

[Look Up]

[The PCA] has given birth to the Federal Vision heresy ...

My understanding is that the claim that the PCA gave birth to the Federal Vision is a bit strong, partly due to underlying New Pauline Perspective influence from outside the PCA, but in any event Steve Wilkin's erstwhile PCA church has certainly been at the center of the Federal Vision (FV) in US (and Canadian? and Japanese?) Reformed circles. Another name for the FV stems from Wilkin's church name.

I took it as some sort of victory that Wilkin's church departed from the PCA and that the PCA general assembly received the anti-FV findings of a committee the GA had appointed to investigate the FV (still in the website archives), but I have heard disturbing, if vague signs subsequently of FV inroads into the PCA and into schools like WTS (PA).

I understand a few years ago, RC Sproul, Sr. was somewhat pressed to express to the PCA GA how dangerous the FV was to the heart of the Reformation. E. Calvin Beisner has become more alarmed at the FV over time as his investigation of it has progressed.

Of course the FV itself is not unified in every respect, and some of it is orthodox in part or at least some of its critiques of reformed problems is probably valid--which I think adds to the danger of the heretical or rather of the anti-Westminster Standards parts. I also see expressions from some FV leaders as ambiguous or as saying both yeah and nay to the same issue, adding a shake of confusion.

In any event I would be interested in any comments about recent or past FV inroads into the PCA and OPC in particular, with I suspect more in the larger and less uniform PCA than smaller and relatively more uniform OPC (albeit not intending to challenge mothcorrupteth's comments about OPC theological diversity). I hope the OPC is more resistant to the enticements of the FV than the PCA.

 

[Anoetos]

Moth,

The poles of the PCA can be described as Duncan and Keller. I believe they are both orthodox and yet both not without flaws. But this identification of poles can be extended everywhere in the Reformed communion: Clark/Van Til, "missionalism"/traditionalism, WTS East/WTS West, etc.

That said, from what I know of him, I disagree at least a little with your characterization of Tim Keller.

Efforts to reduce the largeness of Reformed Christianity to categories is more problematic, ISTM, than the possible dangers of leaving the door open. From what I have seen, when we trust the Lord of the Church to be the Lord of the Church, what usually happens is that the good is gleaned from the bad and retained. An example can be seen in the Church Growth movement of the nineties. After the initial upheaval, those who were listening have settled into "missionalism" which is orthodox, lively and good, where the nonsense of Saddleback et al was clearly not. I believe there are other examples as well.

Slippery slopes are, apparently, far rarer than Machen (and his "warrior children") suspected.

I cut my Reformed teeth in a new OPC twenty years ago, fwiw and I agree almost exactly as much with your assessment of it as a whole as I disagree with the tone of your description of the PCA (its content, on the other hand, I only dispute marginally).

 

[Anoetos]

I am forever struck by the irony of Doug Wilson when it comes to the FV. I admire him a lot and yet am absolutely not myself an adherent of the FV, though he is often identified as such...even today, after I think he has successfully distanced himself from it.

The witch hunt was unfortunate. We lost a good man, and I think we lost him by being just a bit too inquisitional. It seems clear now that his thought was progressing. A more prudent choice would probably have been to mentor him rather than to bully him.

But this is par for the course with us, in our zeal for discipline, we often lose sight of the weightier things.

 

[Anoetos]

.....

 

[ThatWhichIsnt]

I am forever struck by the irony of Doug Wilson when it comes to the FV. I admire him a lot and yet am absolutely not myself an adherent of the FV, though he is often identified as such...even today, after I think he has successfully distanced himself from it.

The witch hunt was unfortunate. We lost a good man, and I think we lost him by being just a bit too inquisitional. It seems clear now that his thought was progressing. A more prudent choice would probably have been to mentor him rather than to bully him.

But this is par for the course with us, in our zeal for discipline, we often lose sight of the weightier things.

I admire Doug Wilson as well. He is a great man and teacher. I learned a lot from him. He has distanced himself from the FV witchhunt,as you said.

 

[mothcorrupteth]

My understanding is that the claim that the PCA gave birth to the Federal Vision is a bit strong, partly due to underlying New Pauline Perspective influence from outside the PCA...

Well, sure. I didn't really mean that the entire PCA is wholly responsible for FV. It's just that a large portion of FV's seed has grown in the womb of the PCA. And to many in the OPC, that doesn't speak well of the PCA's ability to herd its sheep.

That said, from what I know of him, I disagree at least a little with your characterization of Tim Keller.

Hey, don't get me wrong. There's plenty of good about Tim Keller. I admire his approach to apologetics, for one. But the things I've mentioned--particularly his "relationship, not a religion" mentality--keep me from enjoying him and following his teaching ministry. I have no problem with milk, and I have no problem with people giving exposition to the sins of the Pharisees. Sometimes I think the OPC has a patronizing attitude toward the PCA when it should remember that it's an unprofitable servant. What I have a problem with is people using the Pharisees' excesses as an excuse to demonize meat, which is exactly what Tim Keller does in The Prodigal God. To obey is better than sacrifice, but that doesn't mean you poo-poo everyone who points out that the sacrifices are blemished.

I cut my Reformed teeth in a new OPC twenty years ago, fwiw and I agree almost exactly as much with your assessment of it as a whole as I disagree with the tone of your description of the PCA (its content, on the other hand, I only dispute marginally).

I attempted to have no tone to my description of the larger denomination--only a summary of how the OPC tends to feel. I know what I think of Tim Keller, but I try not to think about the PCA. I'm a member of the OPC, and my worry is for the OPC. I want it to reform. Because when you get right down to it, the OPC doesn't have any better reason to resist praise & worship bands than tradition, which plays right into the rhetoric of people like Keller. Hence, unless there is a return to exclusive psalmody and a capella singing, I see a slippery slope.