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Opposition to Dispensationalism

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BT

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There are some who are opposed to dispensationalism, and that is ok. Rather than kind of jump around looking for problems with dispensationalism, I thought I would outline some of the opposition to the dispensational camp as it were. So here are the five major opponents to dispensationalism.

Opposition to Dispensationalism

I. Criticism of Dispensationalism (from 5 major opponents)

A. Liberalism

Liberalism asserts that: there is no absolute, final and infallible revelation from God; there is a spark of divinity in all men; denies the truth that man is a fallen creature; the lesson of the ages that proves the utter failure of man under all tests is of no interest to it; denies inspiration.

B. Amillennialism

1. Glories in the creedal declaration of the church, a marked unwillingness to subject its views to a direct test of Scripture.

2. Outlook tends to be philosophical and logical. Sometimes this coloars its consideration of the Word of God as the only court of appeal.

3. It rejects the truth of a definite actual place in God's future plan for Israel.

4. It does not fully comprehend a distinction between Law and Grace.

5. It views no unique place for the church in God's program.

C. Post-millennialists

1. Accuses dispensationalism of a negative attitude toward the law of Moses.

2. Accuses dispensationalism of taking no responsibility for Christian reconstruction.

3. Attempts to Christianize the entire world to usher in the millennium.

4. Admits the church has been extremely negligent during the past 19 centuries.

5. Employs spiritualization of events to facilitate its views.

D. Historic/Covenant Premillennialists

1. Attempts to reconcile the error of covenant theology with premillennial truth.

2. Interpret the Old Testament by means of the New (reads the New back into the Old), thus, Israel and church are the same. (Also known as replacement theology)

3. Employs spiritualization of events to facilitate its views.

E. Ultradispensationalism (yes you oppose dispensationalism too)

1. Explanation. The movement of Bible students who push the dispensational approach beyond the point where most other dispensationalists would stop is generally called ultradispensationalism. The distinctive feature of ultradispensationalism is its view concerning the beginning of the church.

In contrast to mainstream dispensationalism, which holds that the church began at Pentecost in Acts 2, ultradispensationalism believes the church began later -- the moderate group suggesting Acts 9 or 13 and the more extreme group, Acts 28.

The extreme group follows E.W. Bullinger (1837-1913), a scholar of some renown; earlier dispensationalism, in fact, was sometimes called Bullingerism. Others in the group include Charles H. Welch of London, successor to E.W. Bullinger; A.E. Knoch; Vladimir M. Gelesnoff; and Otis Q. Sellers of Grand Rapids. Bullinger taught that the Gospels and Acts were under the dispensation of Law, with the church actually beginning at Paul's ministry after Acts 28:28. The New Testament books that set forth the revelation concerning this concept of the church are Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians. Bullinger identified three periods in the New Testament (1) the gime of the gospels when the gospel was preached to the Jews only and authenticated by water baptism; (2) the transitional perod in Acts and the corresponding earlier New Testament epistles when the offer still went to the Jews, offering them participation in the "bride church" and authenticated by two baptisms, water and Spirit; (3) the period of Jew and Gentile as one body in Christ and authenticated by Spirit baptism alone. Because the Gentile church is related to Christ through the Spirit, baptism and the Lord's Supper have no significance for the church. Those rites relate to the flesh, according to Bullinger.

The moderate group, holding that the church began in Acts 9 or Acts 13, is identified by J.C. O'Hair, Cornelius R. Stam, and Charles F. Baker, author of A Dispensational Theology. Grace Bible College of Grand Rapids is the ultradispensational school leading to ministries with Grace Gospel Fellowship and World-wide Grace Testimony.

Stam taught that the church began in Acts 9, with the conversion of Paul. The "Body Church" could only begin with the beginning of Paul's ministry because Paul was the minister to the Gentiles. Because after that time there was no further offer of the kingdo to Israel, J.C. O'Hair taught that the church begain in Acts 13:46 with the statement: "We are turning to the Gentiles." Because O'Hair's followers being the church within the time frame of Acts, they observe the Lord's Supper but not water baptism.

2. The apostle Paul was solely given the pure unmixed revelation of the gospel of Grace (doctrine of the church). Peter and the eleven proclaimed a mixture of Jewish nationalism and Messianic hope.

3. Baptism and the Lord's Supper are not essentials of this dispensation. Some do observe these but not as necessary ordinances.

4. A fundamental distinction is made between the baptism in Acts 2 (baptism by Christ for empowering) and II Corinthians 12:13 (baptism by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ).

5. Strong emphasis is given to the distinction between John's baptism (Acts 1-8) and Christian baptism. Acts has the same stress as the Gospels.

II. Arguments Against Dispensationalism

A. Guilt by association

Dispensationalism has in some mysterious way been linked with Roman Catholicism, modernism, Christian Science, Mormonism, and the like. It has been called "heresy" by covenant theologians.

B. Ad Hominem (lit., "to the man;" aimed at one's prejudices rather than the intellect or an objective standard)

This form of opposition usually centers on Darby's separation from the Church of England, his controversial personality and methods, or modern separatism.

C. Intellectualism

Sometimes it has been stated that dispensationalism was given up or found to be untenable when higher education was attained.

D. Historicism

It is alleged that dispensationalism is out of harmony with the history and consensus of prophetic thought, the early Fathers, and the ecumenical creeds and confessions. It is further said to be a product of J.N. Darby and others of the early nineteenth century.

E. Ridicule of Doctrine

Dispensational straw men are sometimes built and then devestated by brilliant argumentation. Common straw men are:

1. Dispensationalism has two ore more ways to salvation.
2. Dispensationalists refuse to preach the Sermon on the Mount.
 

Iosias

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BT said:
E. Ultradispensationalism (yes you oppose dispensationalism too)

1. Explanation. The movement of Bible students who push the dispensational approach beyond the point where most other dispensationalists would stop is generally called ultradispensationalism. The distinctive feature of ultradispensationalism is its view concerning the beginning of the church.

In contrast to mainstream dispensationalism, which holds that the church began at Pentecost in Acts 2, ultradispensationalism believes the church began later -- the moderate group suggesting Acts 9 or 13 and the more extreme group, Acts 28.

The extreme group follows E.W. Bullinger (1837-1913), a scholar of some renown; earlier dispensationalism, in fact, was sometimes called Bullingerism. Others in the group include Charles H. Welch of London, successor to E.W. Bullinger; A.E. Knoch; Vladimir M. Gelesnoff; and Otis Q. Sellers of Grand Rapids. Bullinger taught that the Gospels and Acts were under the dispensation of Law, with the church actually beginning at Paul's ministry after Acts 28:28. The New Testament books that set forth the revelation concerning this concept of the church are Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians. Bullinger identified three periods in the New Testament (1) the gime of the gospels when the gospel was preached to the Jews only and authenticated by water baptism; (2) the transitional perod in Acts and the corresponding earlier New Testament epistles when the offer still went to the Jews, offering them participation in the "bride church" and authenticated by two baptisms, water and Spirit; (3) the period of Jew and Gentile as one body in Christ and authenticated by Spirit baptism alone. Because the Gentile church is related to Christ through the Spirit, baptism and the Lord's Supper have no significance for the church. Those rites relate to the flesh, according to Bullinger.

The moderate group, holding that the church began in Acts 9 or Acts 13, is identified by J.C. O'Hair, Cornelius R. Stam, and Charles F. Baker, author of A Dispensational Theology. Grace Bible College of Grand Rapids is the ultradispensational school leading to ministries with Grace Gospel Fellowship and World-wide Grace Testimony.

Stam taught that the church began in Acts 9, with the conversion of Paul. The "Body Church" could only begin with the beginning of Paul's ministry because Paul was the minister to the Gentiles. Because after that time there was no further offer of the kingdo to Israel, J.C. O'Hair taught that the church begain in Acts 13:46 with the statement: "We are turning to the Gentiles." Because O'Hair's followers being the church within the time frame of Acts, they observe the Lord's Supper but not water baptism.

2. The apostle Paul was solely given the pure unmixed revelation of the gospel of Grace (doctrine of the church). Peter and the eleven proclaimed a mixture of Jewish nationalism and Messianic hope.

3. Baptism and the Lord's Supper are not essentials of this dispensation. Some do observe these but not as necessary ordinances.

4. A fundamental distinction is made between the baptism in Acts 2 (baptism by Christ for empowering) and II Corinthians 12:13 (baptism by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ).

5. Strong emphasis is given to the distinction between John's baptism (Acts 1-8) and Christian baptism. Acts has the same stress as the Gospels.
Can't you just feel the love :kiss:
 
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Iosias

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@@Paul@@

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BT said:
E. Ultradispensationalism (yes you oppose dispensationalism too)

1. Explanation. The movement of Bible students who push the dispensational approach beyond the point where most other dispensationalists would stop is generally called ultradispensationalism. The distinctive feature of ultradispensationalism is its view concerning the beginning of the church.

In contrast to mainstream dispensationalism, which holds that the church began at Pentecost in Acts 2, ultradispensationalism believes the church began later -- the moderate group suggesting Acts 9 or 13 and the more extreme group, Acts 28.

The extreme group follows E.W. Bullinger (1837-1913), a scholar of some renown; earlier dispensationalism, in fact, was sometimes called Bullingerism. Others in the group include Charles H. Welch of London, successor to E.W. Bullinger; A.E. Knoch; Vladimir M. Gelesnoff; and Otis Q. Sellers of Grand Rapids. Bullinger taught that the Gospels and Acts were under the dispensation of Law, with the church actually beginning at Paul's ministry after Acts 28:28. The New Testament books that set forth the revelation concerning this concept of the church are Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians. Bullinger identified three periods in the New Testament (1) the gime of the gospels when the gospel was preached to the Jews only and authenticated by water baptism; (2) the transitional perod in Acts and the corresponding earlier New Testament epistles when the offer still went to the Jews, offering them participation in the "bride church" and authenticated by two baptisms, water and Spirit; (3) the period of Jew and Gentile as one body in Christ and authenticated by Spirit baptism alone. Because the Gentile church is related to Christ through the Spirit, baptism and the Lord's Supper have no significance for the church. Those rites relate to the flesh, according to Bullinger.

The moderate group, holding that the church began in Acts 9 or Acts 13, is identified by J.C. O'Hair, Cornelius R. Stam, and Charles F. Baker, author of A Dispensational Theology. Grace Bible College of Grand Rapids is the ultradispensational school leading to ministries with Grace Gospel Fellowship and World-wide Grace Testimony.

Stam taught that the church began in Acts 9, with the conversion of Paul. The "Body Church" could only begin with the beginning of Paul's ministry because Paul was the minister to the Gentiles. Because after that time there was no further offer of the kingdo to Israel, J.C. O'Hair taught that the church begain in Acts 13:46 with the statement: "We are turning to the Gentiles." Because O'Hair's followers being the church within the time frame of Acts, they observe the Lord's Supper but not water baptism.

2. The apostle Paul was solely given the pure unmixed revelation of the gospel of Grace (doctrine of the church). Peter and the eleven proclaimed a mixture of Jewish nationalism and Messianic hope.

3. Baptism and the Lord's Supper are not essentials of this dispensation. Some do observe these but not as necessary ordinances.

4. A fundamental distinction is made between the baptism in Acts 2 (baptism by Christ for empowering) and II Corinthians 12:13 (baptism by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ).

5. Strong emphasis is given to the distinction between John's baptism (Acts 1-8) and Christian baptism. Acts has the same stress as the Gospels.
The main difference is not then the church started; but when Israel was cast aside. :)

While I appreciate your post, maybe you could explain briefly WHY ultra's do not believe the church started at Acts 2... ;)
 
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BT

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Gold Dragon said:
Which group would you put me in? I'm opposed to dispensationalism and do not identify myself with any of those groups.
Theologically speaking we would put you with the confused, or individualistic. A mish mash of theologies mixed together with your own ideas. Which is sort of a catch-all (even though you could never really catch-all the diverse ideas out there.)
 
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Gold Dragon

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BT said:
Theologically speaking we would put you with the confused, or individualistic. A mish mash of theologies mixed together with your own ideas. Which is sort of a catch-all (even though you could never really catch-all the diverse ideas out there.)
Interesting. Most of the other people I've talked to who are opposed to dispensationalism also don't apply to the categories you have listed.

I guess we are all confused and individualistic, simultaneously coming up with these ideas independent of one another. ;)
 
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BT

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Gold Dragon said:
Interesting. Most of the other people I've talked to who are opposed to dispensationalism also don't apply to the categories you have listed.

I guess we are all confused and individualistic, simultaneously coming up with these ideas independent of one another. ;)
Fair enough. Why don't you tell us what you've come up with as opposition to dispensationalism. What are your reasons/is your reasoning. What is it that you are hearing from these people. Let's not work in vagueness, lay it on the table and let's watch it wiggle.
 
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Gold Dragon

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BT said:
Fair enough. Why don't you tell us what you've come up with as opposition to dispensationalism. What are your reasons/is your reasoning. What is it that you are hearing from these people. Let's not work in vagueness, lay it on the table and let's watch it wiggle.
Dispensationalism, while being a valid way to interpret scripture, creates artifical "economic" boundaries that may be useful as guides to protecting from abuse of scripture, but by themselves are an abuse of good hermeneutical practice by being a pre-textual construct. Remember, I'm talking about the economic boundaries, not the method.
 
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Iosias

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BT said:
Come up with some original thought instead of regurgitation and mabey I will. I'm interested in learning if you are a parrot or if you actually have a mind of your own...
Regurgitation hey? :D Just checked the link it was the wrong one: this is the correct one:

http://www.christianforums.com/t1135937-some-questions-for-classical-dispensationalists.html

Reposted here:

In his Dispensationalism Ryrie states on page 34 that "the distinguishing characteristics of a different dispensation are three: (1) a change in God's governmental relationship with man...; (2) a resultant change in man's responsibility; and (3) corresponding revelation necessary to effect the change (which is new and is a stage in the progress of revelation through the Bible)." On page 201 he conceeds that "it is certainly true that...it is obvious that not all of what God was going to do was revealed on the Day of Pentecost...". But surely the question is whether any of it was revealed and where? Considering that the church was a mystery "hid in God" (Eph 3:9) and revealed to Paul "by revelation he made known unto me the mystery...Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men" (Eph 3:3,5).

Classical dispensationalists (Darby/Scofield et al) believe that Israel was set aside in the Gospels. However where in the gospels is this stated? (Other than the Scofield notes;)) Indeed on page 1158 of the 1909 Scofield Reference Bible we find in the notes on Acts 7:54 that "it was the final trial of the nation"! So if Israel was set aside in the gospels and the church began in Acts 2, how can there be another trial - the final trial - of Israel in Acts 7?

Classical dispensationalism is called "classical" because it was the first fully systemised form of dispensationalism. I do not know about you but when I write an essay I never hand in my first draft as it will have some mistakes within it. Simply because it is "classical" does not make it right! What is correct is to ask 'what saith Scripture?' I am a dispensationalist and I wish to edit out the errors of "classical" dispensationalism.

For your information: JN Darby, a 'classical' rejected the Great Commission as being for the church stating: "The accomplishment of the commission here in Matthew has been interrupted . . . we find no accomplishment of it . . . for the present it has, in fact, given place to a heavenly commission, and the Church of God" (Collected Writings, p. 327). Indeed other so-called classicals have said similar things:

Dr. James M. Gray: "This is the Kingdom Commission, as another expresses it, not the Christian Commission . . . Its accomplishment has been interrupted, but will be taken up before the Lord comes to deliver Israel at the last" (Christian Worker's Commentary, p. 313).


Dr. Wm. L. Pettingill: "Mark's Gospel, like Matthew's and Luke's, is primarily a Kingdom book, and I am satisfied that none of them contains the Church's marching orders--not even the so-called 'Great Commission' of Matt. 28:18-20" (Bible Questions Answered, p. 100).

Dr. Arno C. Gaebelein: "This is the Kingdom Commission . . . A time is coming when this great commission here will be carried out by a remnant of Jewish disciples" (Gospel of Matthew, Vol. 2, p. 323).

Darby also said this about the book of James in his Synopsis:

"The Epistle of James is not addressed to the assembly, and does not take the ground of apostolic authority over the persons to whom it is sent. It is a practical exhortation which still recognises the twelve tribes and the connection of the christian Jews with them, as John addressed the Gentiles, although the Jewish people had their place before God. Thus the Spirit of God still acknowledges here the relationship with Israel, as in the other case the relationship with Gentiles, and the rights of God which are unchangeable, whatever may be the special privileges granted to the assembly or to Israel respectively. We know that historically the christian Jews remained Jews to the end of the New Testament history, and were even zealous for the law-to us a strange thing, but which God endured for a time...The doctrine of Christianity is not the subject of this epistle."

As I have said and will say again...the issue is not when the church began but when the dispensation of Grace began and it can only begin when "corresponding revelation necessary to effect the change" occurs which did not happen until Paul. Again I repeat let us ask: WHAT SAITH SCRIPTURE?
 
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BT

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Gold Dragon said:
Dispensationalism, while being a valid way to interpret scripture, creates artifical "economic" boundaries that may be useful as guides to protecting from abuse of scripture, but by themselves are an abuse of good hermeneutical practice by being a pre-textual construct. Remember, I'm talking about the economic boundaries, not the method.
Please... how is dispensationalism "an abuse of good hermeneutical practice". I find that an interesting statement.
 
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Gold Dragon

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I've presented this link before but this guy does a good job of presenting what I find to be the strengths and weaknesses of dispensationalism. I have highlighted one section I believe to be key.

Dispensationalism

....
Dispensationalists also run into problems when they make such great distinctions between Israel and the Church. The book of Galatians, Romans 9 through 11, and the entire book of Acts make it quite clear that the Christian Church is in continuity with Old Testament Israel. Some of the Jews–the apostles and others–accepted the Messiah, and the gospel spread to Gentiles as they were grafted in. Those who rejected the Messiah were outside God's covenant, whether Jew or Gentile. Paul refers to the Church as the true Israel, and many times in the New Testament, promises originally made to Israel are applied to the Church. It is also folly to ascribe passages to one dispensation or another without regard to who the original audience was. Such attempts seem more like an attempt to harmonize the Scripture with one's own theology than an honest exegesis of the text.
...
 
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Iosias

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BT said:
And this AV1611 is your original thought and writing then...?
Originality is not the issue. I have made my case, how do you answer my charges:

1. But surely the question is whether any of it was revealed and where? Or where was the church revealed first? Where was the indwelling of the Holy Ghost first revealed?



2. So if Israel was set aside in the gospels and the church began in Acts 2, how can there be another trial - the final trial - of Israel in Acts 7?

3. If Israel was set aside in the Gospels why is Peter reoffering the kingdom in Acts 3?


 
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