On prayer: Did John Wesley miss it?

[Always in His Presence]

Wesley said:

God does nothing but in answer to prayer; and even they who have been converted to God without praying for it themselves, (which is exceeding rare,) were not without the prayers of others. Every new victory which a soul gains is the effect of a new prayer.

Was he wrong?

 

[Faulty]

Was he wrong?

Yes.

 

[JimB]

I guess Wesley felt like God was totally unconcerned about our needs and health until one of us forced his hand by praying. So I would say, if this is really a quotation of Wesley’s then, yes, he got it wrong. I much prefer Kierkegaard’s view of prayer, “The function of prayer is not to influence God, but rather to change the nature of the one who prays.” And C.S. Lewis said, “Prayer is request. The essence of request, as distinct from compulsion, is that it may or may not be granted.” IOW, God is always in control.

Lewis also said this about prayer, which is very interesting,

“We know that we can act and that our actions produce results. Everyone who believes in God must therefore admit (quite apart from the question of prayer) that God has not chosen to write the whole history with His own hand. Most of the events that go on in the universe are indeed out of our control, but not all. It is like a play in which the scene and the general outline of the story is fixed by the author, but certain minor details are left for the actors to improvise. It may be a mystery why He should have allowed us to cause real events at all, but it is no odder that He should allow us to cause them by praying than by any other method.”​

I can go with this view better than the one attributed to Wesley.

 

[Always in His Presence]

If that really is a quote by CS Lewis that I think it re-established his skewed perceptions on God in certain areas. His Catholic theology is certainly having an indulgence on the supposed quote of his.

Some of what is attributed to Kierkegaard is in my opinion bizarre and seems to be well... I don't even know if ...... Let's just say I wouldn't waste my time and effort.

But I was addressing Wesley's quote in the OP not Lewis or the man from the land of bizzaro.

 

[JimB]

Ummm. This reminds me of a conversation I recently had with a fellow who told me bald-facedly that Einstein was a moron. I laughed to myself and considered the source just as I have considered your comments re: C.S. Lewis (who was an Anglican not a Catholic) and Soren Kierkegaard.

Anyhow, here’s more quotes on the real purpose of prayer:

God's answers are wiser than our prayers. ~William Culbertson

Prayer draws us near to our own souls. ~Herman Melville

Prayer may not change things for you, but it for sure changes you for things. ~Samuel M. Shoemaker

Some people think that prayer just means asking for things, and if they fail to receive exactly what they asked for, they think the whole thing is a fraud. ~Gerald Vann

We cannot ask in behalf of Christ what Christ would not ask Himself if He were praying. ~A.B. Simpson

What we usually pray to God is not that His will be done, but that He approve ours. ~Helga Bergold Gross

Who rises from prayer a better man, his prayer is answered. ~George Meredith​

 

[Always in His Presence]

Ummm. This reminds me of a conversation I recently had with a fellow who told me bald-facedly that Einstein was a moron. I laughed to myself and considered the source just as I have considered your comments re: C.S. Lewis (who was an Anglican not a Catholic) and Soren Kierkegaard.

Anyhow, here’s more quotes on the real purpose of prayer:

God's answers are wiser than our prayers. ~William Culbertson

Prayer draws us near to our own souls. ~Herman Melville

Prayer may not change things for you, but it for sure changes you for things. ~Samuel M. Shoemaker

Some people think that prayer just means asking for things, and if they fail to receive exactly what they asked for, they think the whole thing is a fraud. ~Gerald Vann

We cannot ask in behalf of Christ what Christ would not ask Himself if He were praying. ~A.B. Simpson

What we usually pray to God is not that His will be done, but that He approve ours. ~Helga Bergold Gross

Who rises from prayer a better man, his prayer is answered. ~George Meredith​

As I consider the source also. Thank you.

Not one of your quotes confirm, nor disputes Wesley's quote.

But always good speaking with you.

 

[Always in His Presence]

A more modern day preacher said:

"When the Holy Spirit is not moving, I move Him with my faith."

Gotta love the old time Assemblies of God preachers.

 

[Alithis]

I think when any one of us. Have as much influence
of as many people ,in the Gospel,as Wesley did..only then can we even begin to comment about what he got right or wrong..

 

[Faulty]

I think when any one of us. Have as much influence of as many people ,in the Gospel,as Wesley did..only then can we even begin to comment about what he got right or wrong..

That seems silly. He was fallible like any of us, and no one is above critique. Absolutely no one. That doesn't even make sense.

And since he was wrong and knows it now, he'd likely prefer he not be followed in that particular area since it was a misrepresentation of God.

 

[Always in His Presence]

That seems silly. He was fallible like any of us, and no one is above critique. Absolutely no one. That doesn't even make sense.

And since he was wrong and knows it now, he'd likely prefer he not be followed in that particular area since it was a misrepresentation of God.

What makes you say this? How does he know it now? Did he recant the statement at some time?

 

[Messy]

Wesley said:

God does nothing but in answer to prayer; and even they who have been converted to God without praying for it themselves, (which is exceeding rare,) were not without the prayers of others. Every new victory which a soul gains is the effect of a new prayer.

Was he wrong?

No, if he was wrong and God did what He wanted to anyway the whole world would be saved now. Wales didn't get saved until they started to pray, but the Holy Spirit prays too and He inspires us to pray.

 

[Always in His Presence]

No, if he was wrong and God did what He wanted to anyway the whole world would be saved now. Wales didn't get saved until they started to pray, but the Holy Spirit prays too and He inspires us to pray.

Amen! Good example.

 

[geetrue]

God doesn't do anything without prayer ... if he needs prayer he can induce it.

The Saints pray in heaven too

Jesus prayed to the Father St John 17 in fact He prayed for us all
asking, requesting and promising to bring glory to his name ...

Psalms are prayer ... don't you have a favorite psalm.

Wesley didn't miss it ... God even leads us in prayer for we know not how to intercede as good as the gift of tongues which is sometimes spoken as the tongues of angels.

 

[Alithis]

What makes you say this? How does he know it now? Did he recant the statement at some time?

And..Do you have some scripture to back up the claim Wesley had it wrong?
Scripture displays God(for his own purposes not always comprehended by us) working that way often.
- ie get job to pray for you.... why did God need job to pray ...
No I don't think a blanket comment makes Wesley wrong.nor does our opinion.achieve what he achieved... then, having done so,be his critic.

 

[JimB]

FTR, I admire John Wesley and his legacy greatly. That does not mean that everything he said was on the mark. He never professed to be a theologian but I do believe he was one of the greatest evangelists that ever lived.

I would like to offer that if Wesley actually did say, “God does nothing but in answer to prayer; and even they who have been converted to God without praying for it themselves, (which is exceeding rare,) were not without the prayers of others. Every new victory which a soul gains is the effect of a new prayer,” can such a statement be supported by scripture? I say it can’t, but if you can show me otherwise, I will gladly admit it.

 

[Faulty]

What makes you say this? How does he know it now? Did he recant the statement at some time?

What makes me say that is he's now with the Lord, so he would have a clearer understanding, and would have been corrected. Did he recant while he was alive? No idea.

 

[Faulty]

No, if he was wrong and God did what He wanted to anyway the whole world would be saved now. Wales didn't get saved until they started to pray, but the Holy Spirit prays too and He inspires us to pray.

And..Do you have some scripture to back up the claim Wesley had it wrong?
Scripture displays God(for his own purposes not always comprehended by us) working that way often.
- ie get job to pray for you.... why did God need job to pray ...
No I don't think a blanket comment makes Wesley wrong.nor does our opinion.achieve what he achieved... then, having done so,be his critic.

The foundation of the statement was "God does nothing but in answer to prayer".

Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

Whose prayer was He answering?

You can find God responding to prayer, but you can't find God doing absolutely nothing until someone prays for Him to act.

 

[Messy]

The foundation of the statement was "God does nothing but in answer to prayer".

Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

Whose prayer was He answering?

You can find God responding to prayer, but you can't find God doing absolutely nothing until someone prays for Him to act.

That was because I prayed. You're right, but since He created us, He always needed someone, Abraham, Moses. He can't do things here without a Body on earth. Not doing absolutely nothing, He makes us pray and He prays too. He starts it.
Hm thinking about it, who prayed for Adam and Eve and made God come to them and clothe them and promising them the Messiah?

 

[Alithis]

Well hmm,God does do something..he asks us to pray.

 

[Faulty]

That was because I prayed. You're right, but since He created us, He always needed someone, Abraham, Moses. He can't do things here without a Body on earth. Not doing absolutely nothing, He makes us pray and He prays too. He starts it.
Hm thinking about it, who prayed for Adam and Eve and made God come to them and clothe them and promising them the Messiah?

The problem here is that the quote is an absolute statement, then an argument based on the stated absolute.

Absolute: "God does nothing but in answer to prayer"

Argument: Therefore, God only saves when someone prays.

If the absolute statement can be shown to be false even in a single instance, such as God created without someone praying for it, then the argument crumbles.

To add "since he created us" as a qualifier to the absolute statement is to concede that absolute on it's own in inaccurate, thereby also conceding that the argument has no foundation.

Now the burden falls on those who insist that even though the foundation for the argument is inaccurate that the argument itself is accurate, to build a new foundation. So, where is the foundation scripture that says, "Now that I've created man, I will do nothing else ever unless someone else prays for me to act first"?