Necromancy and Heavenly Intercession

[Wigglesworth]

Necromancy is sin. A necromancer is one who interrogates the dead. When Saul asked a medium to call up Samuel, he was directly violating his own law and the commandment of God.

Clearly, there is a difference between the conversation Jesus had with Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration, and the conversation the witch of Endor had with Samuel and Saul. Jesus did not sin.

How, then, do these examples compare with Catholics seeking intercession from the saints in Heaven?

One might say they are different, because Catholics seeking intercession are not seeking dialogue. However, as in Medjugorge, Catholics do appear to have dialogue with saints who have passed on to eternal life.

This is an interesting point, and I sincerely seek serious answers.

 

[Iollain]

Necromancer can be asking of the dead, or asking God.

Samuel was not 'dead' in that sense either, but it was still against God's laws to contact him.

The verses that state that God is the God of the living were for those people who thought when you die, your gone, there is no more, no resurrection, the Sadesses believed that.

Those verses did not point people to go against God's laws and contact the dead in Christ.

 

[Veritas]

Necromancy is sin. A necromancer is one who interrogates the dead. When Saul asked a medium to call up Samuel, he was directly violating his own law and the commandment of God.

Clearly, there is a difference between the conversation Jesus had with Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration, and the conversation the witch of Endor had with Samuel and Saul. Jesus did not sin.

How, then, do these examples compare with Catholics seeking intercession from the saints in Heaven?

One might say they are different, because Catholics seeking intercession are not seeking dialogue. However, as in Medjugorge, Catholics do appear to have dialogue with saints who have passed on to eternal life.

This is an interesting point, and I sincerely seek serious answers.

The necromany charge is ofter leveled at Catholics/Orthodox because they ask for intercession of the saints in Heaven. The purpose of praying to saints is not to obtain information or learn the future. To abuse the practice would be sinful.

 

[Iollain]

I understand your train of thought there, but i disagree that God would allow it.

 

[Ainesis]

Interesting post. A couple of thoughts come to mind.

Yes, Jesus did speak with Moses and Elijah. But, God can speak with those who are not living in this world. Moses and Elijah however, did not speak with Peter or John.

No, Samuel was not "alive" the way those who have died in Christ are today, but there is no Scripture that indicates these saints as being able to receive our communications or prayers, let alone being in need of them.

Lastly, even if those who have died in Christ are able to see what is transpiring on earth, we are never directed to pray to them or attempt to commuicate with them.

 

[Iollain]

No, Samuel was not "alive" the way those who have died in Christ are today, but there is no Scripture that indicates these saints as being able to receive our communications or prayers, let alone being in need of them.

That is true that this was before the Cross. But the verses in the Bible where Jesus is saying 'God is a God of the living' which some people use to support prayer to saints passed on, are also before the Cross.

 

[Egghead]

That is true that this was before the Cross. But the verses in the Bible where Jesus is saying 'God is a God of the living' which some people use to support prayer to saints passed on, are also before the Cross.

amazing what kind of doctrines can be squeezed into the text, isnt it

 

[dvd_holc]

I guess you really want to know about Catholic's believes. I am not a Catholic, but I feel there is something pointed out.

Saul used the witch for selfish desires. God refused to show favor on him when he choose not to respect God. Saul forced his will to have answer. Jesus did asked for this to happen. Jesus did listen to God the Father in the calling for the transfiguration to occur. Yet, it was God's will for this to occur.

Then also, from my understanding of the Catholic faith is that the saints in heaven will be additional support for the prayers of the faith here on earth. I don't agree with the viewpoint if that is correct because we pray to God in the name of Jesus and the saints' desires and Jesus' desires will support and seek only God's will...

 

[Veritas]

we pray to God in the name of Jesus and the saints' desires and Jesus' desires will support and seek only God's will...

This is true regarding prayers of intercession of the saints. That cannot nor will they pray for anything else. But our God loves to be bugged and the more the better!

 

[dvd_holc]

I agree. Take all of it to God he can handle it...

 

[Iollain]

I guess you really want to know about Catholic's believes. I am not a Catholic, but I feel there is something pointed out.

Saul used the witch for selfish desires. God refused to show favor on him when he choose not to respect God. Saul forced his will to have answer. Jesus did asked for this to happen. Jesus did listen to God the Father in the calling for the transfiguration to occur. Yet, it was God's will for this to occur.

Then also, from my understanding of the Catholic faith is that the saints in heaven will be additional support for the prayers of the faith here on earth. I don't agree with the viewpoint if that is correct because we pray to God in the name of Jesus and the saints' desires and Jesus' desires will support and seek only God's will...

That's really not the problem that the saints passed on would seek God's will, the problem is God forbids asking the dead in any way shape and form and the Bible does not give an example of prayer to those passed on. The problem is that it is against God's will. And how are they everywhere as God is listening to prayers from all over, would be the next question. Prayer in the Bible is always to God, never to those passed on.

Saul was breaking God's Laws in trying to contact the dead, even the dead that Jesus said were alive.

 

[dvd_holc]

I am sorry. I am assumed that the reader did know that it was against God to seek the counsel of spirits. I was pointing out what the motives for each person. Do you see that Saul had selfish desires in his calling the spirit of Samuel? Do you see that he demanded an answer? Do you see that he wanted it so much he was willing to break God's law? Do you see that by going to this witch, he broke his own orders? He was clearly being very bad...

I did say, "we pray to God in the name of Jesus". I also said I don't agree with praying to saints. You have a good point about how do they saints know the prayers of people on earth. The only way they would have this information is by God telling them.

 

[Philip]

You have a good point about how do they saints know the prayers of people on earth. The only way they would have this information is by God telling them.

Wasn't Samuel aware of what was going on in Saul's life?

 

[dvd_holc]

How did he have this information?

 

[Philip]

Scripture does not say. Why speculate?

 

[dvd_holc]

Because there is understanding in it.

 

[Iollain]

The witch of Endor was scared because she saw gods coming out of the ground, this seems not to be her usual encounter, witches usually have familiar spirits (fallen angels, no doubt) who probably pose as the dead. It was not by Samuel's own power that he was coming up out of the ground, it was God's power and God would have given him any knowledge he had. That is not an excuse to pray to those passed on, that is not an excuse to assume that everytime God passes on information from the living to anyone passed on. He does not want us to contact the dead, period. There is a verse in the Bible that says:

Isa 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

If we want anything we should seek God, ask God that if it is possible to ask those passed on to pray. Nowhere in the Bible does it say to pray to anyone but God.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.


SO where do the elders get these prayers of the saints that they are offering to God?

 

[livingproofGM]

The Saints in Heaven are not dead. The saints in heaven are alive with God: "He is not God of the dead, but of the living" (Mk 12:26-27) In Mark 9:4, Jesus is seen conversing with Elijah and Moses. Jesus tells the Good Thief: "Amen, I say to you, TODAY you will be with me in Paradise" (Lk 23:43). In fact, the saints in Heaven are more alive than we are. They are free from all sin. They enjoy the fullness of God's life-giving presence. Flooded with God's love, they care more about us now than they did on earth.

Just as Paul asked fellow believers (saints) to pray for him, (Rom 15:30; Col 4:3; 1Thess 5:25; Eph 6:18-19; 2 Thess 3:1), now we ask Paul and the other saints in Heaven to pray for us. We are not cut off from eachother at death, rather we are brought closer through the communion we share in Christ.

We know that angels and saints place the prayers of the holy onesat God's feet (Tob 12:12; Rev 5:8; 8:3-4), supporting those prayers with their intercessions. The martyrs underneath the heavenly altar cry out for earthly vindication (Rev 6:9-11), showing they are aware of, and concerned with, earthly affairs. The angels and saints in Heaven will intercede for us before the throne of God if they are petitioned in prayer.

The saints in Heaven can most definitely hear us. The medium of communication is Christ himself-the vine between the branches. We and the saints form one communion, one body of Christ, being members of Him and members of one another. Heb 12:1 tells us that we are surrounded by a "cloud of witnesses." How could those watching be unconcerned for our welfare? Look at Rev 5:8, 8:3. The petitions offered as incense to God must be for those who still need help, the holy ones on earth. They are offered by those who can help the most, the holy ones in Heaven.

In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man (Lk 16:19-30), the departed rich man is able to pray to Abraham and intercede for his brothers. This implies that there can be communication across the abyss, and that fraternal charity extends beyond the grave.

Heaven has no space or time. Everything appears to God as one eternal present. Like God, the saints are outside of limitations of space and time. Our earthly way of knowing is limited and incomplete. "At present, we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully; as I am fully known" (1 Cor 13:12). Our heavenly way of knowing is full and perfect.

I wrote this in a thread here entitled 'Questions on Catholicism'. I got this info from a really good apologetics book.

 

[dvd_holc]

The point is to pray to God for him to let his glory be shown through us. We know that the power flows out of him and not to the saints. Also, God responds to faith not words. So when we pray we pray to God with faith, and we can ask for all of heaven to support the prayer which it will if God wants. (I feel that if I should ask the saints and angels to ask him then my faith is not complete, so I don't...)