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My Interest in Orthodoxy

NewTestamentChristian

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I was raised a Roman Catholic not at all in the strict sense. I greatly enjoy going to mass, find the structure of the liturgical year spiritually fulfilling, and am inspired by the religious life of various monastic and medicant orders especially the Benedictine family of orders, Franciscans, and Carmelites (I once considered either becoming a Trappist monk or a Carmelite friar but this life is not for me). One of the distinctively Catholic things I do strongly believe in is the devotion to Divine Mercy (despite some the Church Fathers believing in universal salvation, I do not see Divine Mercy as universal salvation at all); The diary of St. Faustina Kowalska is probably one of the most interesting books I've read. However, I do have some issues with the Catholic Church; Papal supremacy, papal infallibility, the factionalism in the Church (Traditionalists, Progressives, Charismatics, Moderates), Strict Observance Thomist's canonizing Thomism as the philosophia perennis of Catholicism and dare I say Christianity at large. I also have never been "a rosary guy." I have nothing against it but I have been more enriched by the Jesus Prayer, personally. Sometimes I attend a Byzantine Catholic parish, which is not the exact same as Orthodoxy but similar, as I find the "Eastern Rite" of Christianity very mystical. I went to a local Greek Orthodox cathedral for Agape Vespers in college and I was blown away by the service. Why haven't I converted? I just don't think I'm ready yet; Maybe someday. I like to jokingly identify as "Culturally Catholic" because I don't disagree with everything. Protestantism, while I respect the High Church camp, is off the table; It's too broad a term in America. Being exposed to Orthodoxy has deepened my faith as a Christian.
 

Lukaris

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I was raised a Roman Catholic not at all in the strict sense. I greatly enjoy going to mass, find the structure of the liturgical year spiritually fulfilling, and am inspired by the religious life of various monastic and medicant orders especially the Benedictine family of orders, Franciscans, and Carmelites (I once considered either becoming a Trappist monk or a Carmelite friar but this life is not for me). One of the distinctively Catholic things I do strongly believe in is the devotion to Divine Mercy (despite some the Church Fathers believing in universal salvation, I do not see Divine Mercy as universal salvation at all); The diary of St. Faustina Kowalska is probably one of the most interesting books I've read. However, I do have some issues with the Catholic Church; Papal supremacy, papal infallibility, the factionalism in the Church (Traditionalists, Progressives, Charismatics, Moderates), Strict Observance Thomist's canonizing Thomism as the philosophia perennis of Catholicism and dare I say Christianity at large. I also have never been "a rosary guy." I have nothing against it but I have been more enriched by the Jesus Prayer, personally. Sometimes I attend a Byzantine Catholic parish, which is not the exact same as Orthodoxy but similar, as I find the "Eastern Rite" of Christianity very mystical. I went to a local Greek Orthodox cathedral for Agape Vespers in college and I was blown away by the service. Why haven't I converted? I just don't think I'm ready yet; Maybe someday. I like to jokingly identify as "Culturally Catholic" because I don't disagree with everything. Protestantism, while I respect the High Church camp, is off the table; It's too broad a term in America. Being exposed to Orthodoxy has deepened my faith as a Christian.

Welcome to this Orthodox (TAW) forum and I encourage you to continue exploring Orthodox Christianity. In America, the ongoing challenges for Orthodoxy seem to come down to parish life and uneven distribution of parishes. There may be clusters of parishes in a given area and there may not be any parishes for hundreds of miles. Parish life varies of course from being welcoming to being insensitive. These are, I believe, necessary secondary factors to be aware of while investigating Orthodoxy in America.

On a personal basis, while I believe Orthodoxy is the absolute truth, I am deeply influenced by C.S. Lewis’ book: Mere Christianity. I believe many other Christians are in good places and that I need to work out my own salvation ( Philippians 2:12). There is also the fact that when C.S. Lewis wrote this wonderful book, that there was much more “common sense” Christianity that is unraveling in today’s world ( such tendencies exist within Orthodoxy also).

A nice, substantive, & concise book on Orthodoxy is The Faith We Hold by the late Archbishop Paul of Finland.


 
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ArmyMatt

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I was raised a Roman Catholic not at all in the strict sense. I greatly enjoy going to mass, find the structure of the liturgical year spiritually fulfilling, and am inspired by the religious life of various monastic and medicant orders especially the Benedictine family of orders, Franciscans, and Carmelites (I once considered either becoming a Trappist monk or a Carmelite friar but this life is not for me). One of the distinctively Catholic things I do strongly believe in is the devotion to Divine Mercy (despite some the Church Fathers believing in universal salvation, I do not see Divine Mercy as universal salvation at all); The diary of St. Faustina Kowalska is probably one of the most interesting books I've read. However, I do have some issues with the Catholic Church; Papal supremacy, papal infallibility, the factionalism in the Church (Traditionalists, Progressives, Charismatics, Moderates), Strict Observance Thomist's canonizing Thomism as the philosophia perennis of Catholicism and dare I say Christianity at large. I also have never been "a rosary guy." I have nothing against it but I have been more enriched by the Jesus Prayer, personally. Sometimes I attend a Byzantine Catholic parish, which is not the exact same as Orthodoxy but similar, as I find the "Eastern Rite" of Christianity very mystical. I went to a local Greek Orthodox cathedral for Agape Vespers in college and I was blown away by the service. Why haven't I converted? I just don't think I'm ready yet; Maybe someday. I like to jokingly identify as "Culturally Catholic" because I don't disagree with everything. Protestantism, while I respect the High Church camp, is off the table; It's too broad a term in America. Being exposed to Orthodoxy has deepened my faith as a Christian.
all in God’s time
 

rusmeister

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My own two cents - you should come to the Orthodox Church because it is the real deal, and offers the TRUTH, and not because you merely like it, or because its teachings fit what you believe. Over time, if you attend faithfully and try to live it, you will likely find yourself discarding old ideas and prejudices and accepting what the saints and fathers have always taught, especially the things you don’t like so much.

And falling away is easy. Finding bad churches and hypocritical priests is easy. It’s full of messed up people who, over time, are going to disappoint you. But that’s the reality of our Fallen state.
 
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ArmyMatt

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In theory, could I become Orthodox and still practice the Divine Mercy devotion privately and venerate other Catholic saints? Just a thought.
what’s the Divine Mercy devotion exactly? personal veneration of non-Orthodox is done by many.
 
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SashaMaria

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I have a question too. Are Orthodox allowed to pray the Hours, such as Benedictine Daily Prayer?


The Divine Mercy devotion is a very popular devotion to the Merciful Jesus Christ.
“Jesus, I trust in you”

The most popular part of the devotion is the Chaplet prayed on a 5 decade rosary.

Start with the Sign of the Cross, one Our Father, a Hail Mary and the Apostles Creed, followed by:


The Eternal Father— On each large bead pray:​

Eternal Father, I offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your Dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord, Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world.

On the 10 Small Beads of Each Decade​

For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

Repeat for the remaining decades​

Saying the "Eternal Father" on the "Our Father" bead and then 10 "For the sake of His sorrowful Passion" on the following "Hail Mary" beads.

Conclude with Holy God (Repeat three times)​

Holy God, Holy Mighty One, Holy Immortal One, have mercy on us and on the whole world.


 
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The Liturgist

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I have a question too. Are Orthodox allowed to pray the Hours, such as Benedictine Daily Prayer?

The short answer is Yes. And I can help you find good versions of the Hours to pray in English or your preferred language, if you wish.

Beyond that, not only can you read the full hours, but there are also Prayer Books written for use by the laity which are based on the Hours, but with some simplifications, and which have everything you need in one convenient place, and some of these also have the text for the Divine Liturgy (you will also find this in the Unabbreviated Horologion by Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville, which is in my opinion the best edition of the Hours in English). That same monastery also publishes the most popular prayer book for individual usage, known as the Jordanville Prayer Book, and the second edition of it is freely availalble online: Liturgical Texts - Orthodox Prayer Book

But it gets even better than that: almost all Orthodox parishes celebrate the Hours publicly, with some of the most beautiful and important hymns being sung at Vespers and especially Matins - whereas unfortunately this is rare among Roman Catholic parishes, and one is unlikely to find a year-round public celebration even of Vespers outside of a cathedral or monastery. We also have devotional liturgies, most notably the Moleben, also known as the Paraklesis, and the Akathist, which are publicly celebrated with beautiful hymns.

Indeed, Matins is particularly important, since most of the hymns specific to a particular liturgical occasion, and most of the variable portions of the liturgy for a given feast, occur during that liturgy (and to a lesser extent, some of these hymns happen during Vespers as well).

Here are some details concerning the public celebration of the Hours:

Vespers on Saturday Night and Matins either on Saturday night or Sunday morning (if served by themselves) before the divine liturgy (the Eucharistic liturgy or mass) are almost universal, and in Slavonic-heritage churches or any that celebrate “All Night Vigils” on the evening before Sunday and major feasts (such as the Orthodox Church in America and ROCOR), one can attend at that service, which despite the name actually only takes a bit more than two hours*, a series of the hours: Vespers, Compline, the Midnight Office, Matins and Prime, and in some parishes this is preceded by the Ninth Hour. One will also hear the third hour and sixth hour before the Divine Liturgy on Sunday.

* This is about the same length of time as the Sunday morning service (and factoring in the very excellent lunches that most parishes have, and the average start time of 9:30 AM, sometimes 10 AM, and the fellowship that is often present in a healthy parish, I suggest planning on staying as late as 1 PM, occasionally later, if there is a bishop present or some special event in the parish - one can check the calendar; weekday services tend not to take as long and have less going on afterwards, even if it is a major feast, but for the most important feasts throughout the year, there will be a crowd.
 
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The Liturgist

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Now, for some additional information you may find interesting:

Also, ROCOR and the Antiochian Orthodox Church have Western Rite parishes, and these have a system of the Hours more like the traditional Benedictine or Roman hours in terms of structure, for example, the Magnificat is sung at Vespers, and Lauds is celebrated as a separate office apart from Matins (whereas in the Eastern Orthodox liturgy, they are integrated). That being said, I really love the Byzantine Rite hours, particularly because that is where you will hear so many beautiful hymns, but I also do love the Western Rite and am glad we have it. I should add, in Europe I think the Romanian Orthodox have a small Western Rite as well, but I can’t recall, and the Oriental Orthodox Christians in Malankara, India historically had a Western Rite in Sri Lanka, which I recall was recently restored. The Syriac Orthodox liturgy has a beautiful Divine Office, although finding English celebrations of it might be challenging.

Among Oriental Orthodox churches, the Oriental Orthodox churches, the Coptic Orthodox church is the most accessible in terms of English language celebrations of the hours - the congregation will pray the First, Third and Sixth hour before every Divine Liturgy, and the Ninth, Eleventh and Twelfth as part of Vespers on Saturday night (usually), and these are a bit different than in the Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic church, in that a reader will assign one or more Psalms from each of these to be read quietly and simultaneously by each member of the congregation, from a list of Psalms specific to that hour; there is also a litany and a Gospel lesson for each hour. These hours are invariant, unlike their Eastern Orthodox counterparts, that is to say, they never change at all, except during Holy Week when a completely different set of Hours are used. The variable part of the Coptic Orthodox Divine Office is called the Psalmody. Especially popular is the Khiakh Psalmody, which is sung during Advent (which lasts for six Sundays in all the Eastern liturgical rites, and also in the Ambrosian Rite used by the Roman Catholics of Milan and some related liturgical rites). Psalmody is sung by the choir, and by laity who know the hymns.

Lastly, regarding attendance and feast days:

The most important and well attended feasts vary from parish to parish and include the parish feast day, and such holidays as the Nativity of the Theotokos, the Exaltation of the Cross, the Protection of the Theotokos, Christmas, Theophany (Epiphany or the Baptism of Christ), the Presentation of the Lord (known in the West as Candlemas), the Annunciation, Holy Week - particularly Great and Holy Friday, but really the whole thing, right through Pascha, the Ascension, the Holy Apostles St. Peter and Paul and the Transfiguration, Dormition (the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary), most of which happen on the same days as their Roman Catholic counterparts (the exception being All Saints Day, which is on the Sunday following Pentecost, and instead of All Souls Days, there are Soul Saturdays which generally start in the pre-Lenten Sundays and continue through Lent, then take a break for Pascha and most of Eastertide, and resume the Saturday before Pentecost Sunday) and certain very popular saints, whose feast days are sometimes different than in the Roman Catholic Church, so check on this, but these saints include St. Nicholas, the Three Holy Hierarchs (St. Basil, St. Gregory the Great and St. John Chrysostom celebrated together, although they also have their own separate feasts, with St. Basil’s being on January 1st alongside the Feast of the Circumcision of our Lord as in the Roman church), and St. George the Great Martyr, St. Demetrius, St. Anthony the Great (of Egypt, the fourth century Egyptian saint), and several other prominent martyrs and confessors, and also the Holy Apostles and Evangelists.

Depending on your church, when its feast day is, and whether or not it is a cathedral (and some large churches are called cathedrals even if they are not, strictly speaking, the main cathedral of their diocese, but are rather like pro-cathedrals in the Roman Catholic Church, a bishop may attend on one of these days - bishops frequently are at their main cathedral on the most important feast days where there is not a church in their diocese where that feast is the parish feast. But bishops do try to visit all of the churches in their jurisdiction as frequently as their health and time permits, aided by retired bishops (there is no mandatory retirement age at which bishops cease to be bishops, but many bishops of important dioceses will retire if they are not well enough to travel around their diocese and celebrate the liturgy, but they will still liturgize when possible), and when a bishop is present and actively celebrating the liturgy, a longer and more beautiful form of the divine liturgy, the Hierarchical Divine Liturgy, is used, so it is particularly nice to attend when there is a bishop present, but there are some parishes where a retired bishop is the rector, for example, All Saints ROCOR in Las Vegas, so at that church you can get a hierarchical divine liturgy throughout much of the year.
 
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The Liturgist

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I have a question too. Are Orthodox allowed to pray the Hours, such as Benedictine Daily Prayer?


The Divine Mercy devotion is a very popular devotion to the Merciful Jesus Christ.
“Jesus, I trust in you”

The most popular part of the devotion is the Chaplet prayed on a 5 decade rosary.

Start with the Sign of the Cross, one Our Father, a Hail Mary and the Apostles Creed, followed by:

The Eternal Father— On each large bead pray:​

Eternal Father, I offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your Dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord, Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world.

On the 10 Small Beads of Each Decade​

For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

Repeat for the remaining decades​

Saying the "Eternal Father" on the "Our Father" bead and then 10 "For the sake of His sorrowful Passion" on the following "Hail Mary" beads.

Conclude with Holy God (Repeat three times)​

Holy God, Holy Mighty One, Holy Immortal One, have mercy on us and on the whole world.



That looks like a beautiful devotion and I can’t imagine any Orthodox priest objecting to it. Indeed, there are probably some Orthodox, including Western Rite Orthodox, who pray that. So @NewTestamentChristian I wouldn’t worry about that.

Additionally, we have something called The Prayer Rule of St. Seraphim of Sarov, which consists of praying the Hail Mary, but which is different from the Rosary, in that typically one says more Hail Mary prayers and fewer Pater Nosters, as it is not grouped into decades. It is prayed traditionally on a special Lestovka, which is normally expensive, made from leather, although I managed to get one for just $10 at a parish sale, but one could also use a regular prayer rope for it. I really like the traditional Lestovka used by Old Believers, as I find it more comfortable to handle than either the prayer rope or the rosary - I am planning on getting a leather lestovka to replace my vinyl lestovkas of this configuration, from the Church of the Nativity in Erie, PA. This parish is a ROCOR parish that uses the Russian Old Rite - it used to be a schismatic priestless Old Believer church (in the US, there were multiple groups of Russian emigres who belonged to the Priestless Old Believers, who believed that with the change in the Russian liturgy, there ceased to be any legitimate bishops and were therefore no canonical priests who could celebrate a valid Eucharist in existence, and so they only celebrated baptism and certain other services, but despite not having priests, their parishes often have rectors, who would officiate in marriages, preside over baptisms, and preach and do other things a priest would do, except for celebraating the Eucharist which they believed was impossible. In contrast, most Old Believers have priests and bishops, and are either in communion with one of the canonical churches (in Russia, Romania, Georgia, Greece and a few other countries), or are members of one of two schismatic hierarchies, like the more recent Old Calendarist.

The moral of that story, and of the liturgical changes post 1969 in the Roman Catholic church, is to not force a sweeping change to the liturgy on the laity, because even when the revision is an improvement, people will resist and the result of such forced revision tends to be schism.
 
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SashaMaria

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Thank you!

Can I ask one more question? Not sure why I’m asking but my interest in Orthodoxy goes back almost 25 years now but there have always been obstacles and there still are.

Is it difficult for someone in their mid-70s to convert to Orthodoxy? Do many older people convert? Is re-Baptism necessary? How do older people with health problems manage the fasting?

i’ve watched Orthodox Divine Liturgies on youtube and the Greek Orthodox Liturgy is beautiful. The only Orthodox Church near me is Greek so that would be good but I’m actually very very nervous about attending and haven’t.

Also, because of my situation as the only caregiver for my 97 year old mom, I usually go to Mass on Saturday evenings if I can leave mom and she’s napping (my parish priest told me the commandment to honor and care for my mom means she and her care take precedence over my Mass obligation if I can’t leave her).

Anyway, If things are OK with mom on a Sunday morning and I did go to Mass on that Saturday evening, I could try and go to the Greek Orthodox Church on a Sunday morning. Yet the length of the Liturgy concerns me because I can’t leave mom alone for too long. There are obstacles I can’t control.

I know it can take more than a year for most people to inquire and study and then become a catechumen, and according to some, it takes at least 10 years after formal conversion to even begin to understand the Orthodox mindset. That might make it very difficult for someone who’s older and a lifelong Catholic with a Catholic mindset to make such a MAJOR change this late in life, even when the desire is there.

And I must confess that they probably aren’t much interested in a creaky old lady! Lol!

My real question is, should I simply resign myself and accept where God has placed me? Maybe it’s not His will for me to be so restless. I’m content being Catholic but am very uneasy about the RCC hierarchy and the direction the RCC is heading.

Any thoughts or advice will be helpful and much appreciated.
 
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SashaMaria

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That looks like a beautiful devotion and I can’t imagine any Orthodox priest objecting to it. Indeed, there are probably some Orthodox, including Western Rite Orthodox, who pray that. So @NewTestamentChristian I wouldn’t worry about that.

Additionally, we have something called The Prayer Rule of St. Seraphim of Sarov, which consists of praying the Hail Mary, but which is different from the Rosary, in that typically one says more Hail Mary prayers and fewer Pater Nosters, as it is not grouped into decades. It is prayed traditionally on a special Lestovka, which is normally expensive, made from leather, although I managed to get one for just $10 at a parish sale, but one could also use a regular prayer rope for it. I really like the traditional Lestovka used by Old Believers, as I find it more comfortable to handle than either the prayer rope or the rosary - I am planning on getting a leather lestovka to replace my vinyl lestovkas of this configuration, from the Church of the Nativity in Erie, PA. This parish is a ROCOR parish that uses the Russian Old Rite - it used to be a schismatic priestless Old Believer church (in the US, there were multiple groups of Russian emigres who belonged to the Priestless Old Believers, who believed that with the change in the Russian liturgy, there ceased to be any legitimate bishops and were therefore no canonical priests who could celebrate a valid Eucharist in existence, and so they only celebrated baptism and certain other services, but despite not having priests, their parishes often have rectors, who would officiate in marriages, preside over baptisms, and preach and do other things a priest would do, except for celebraating the Eucharist which they believed was impossible. In contrast, most Old Believers have priests and bishops, and are either in communion with one of the canonical churches (in Russia, Romania, Georgia, Greece and a few other countries), or are members of one of two schismatic hierarchies, like the more recent Old Calendarist.

The moral of that story, and of the liturgical changes post 1969 in the Roman Catholic church, is to not force a sweeping change to the liturgy on the laity, because even when the revision is an improvement, people will resist and the result of such forced revision tends to be schism.
i’ll look into the St. Sarov’s Prayer Rule,

Have you ever prayed the Eastern Rite Rosary? An Orthodox priest described it in a youtube video and I took notes and pray it at times.. It’s similar to the Catholic rosary but different enough to have a different ‘feel’ to it when prayed. There are Mysteries but a few are different than the Catholic ones. I love the version of the Hail Mary — which from memory:

Rejoice, O Virgin Theotokos, Mary,
full of grace, the Lord is with you.
Blessed are you among women
and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
For you have borne Christ, the Savior of our soul.
 
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ArmyMatt

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jas3

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Also, because of my situation as the only caregiver for my 97 year old mom, I usually go to Mass on Saturday evenings if I can leave mom and she’s napping (my parish priest told me the commandment to honor and care for my mom means she and her care take precedence over my Mass obligation if I can’t leave her).

Anyway, If things are OK with mom on a Sunday morning and I did go to Mass on that Saturday evening, I could try and go to the Greek Orthodox Church on a Sunday morning. Yet the length of the Liturgy concerns me because I can’t leave mom alone for too long. There are obstacles I can’t control.
When I started attending an Orthodox church, I was in a situation where I was similarly limited in how I could attend church. I explained the situation to the priest and he recommended I go to Vespers regularly, since that was what I could reliably attend, and then Divine Liturgy as my circumstances allowed. Eventually I was able to go to Divine Liturgy on a regular basis. It would probably be worth talking to the priest at your local parish and see what guidance, if any, he can offer.
 
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RileyG

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what’s the Divine Mercy devotion exactly? personal veneration of non-Orthodox is done by many.
I don't know if you are aware of St. Faustina and her Diary of Divine Mercy. Even some traditional Catholic priests and laity have issues with the Divine Mercy devotion:

 
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ArmyMatt

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I don't know if you are aware of St. Faustina and her Diary of Divine Mercy. Even some traditional Catholic priests and laity have issues with the Divine Mercy devotion:

thanks, I wasn’t aware of her. interesting to know.
 
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