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methodism, infant baptism and excommunication

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molchog

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i am a wesleyan christian, but not a methodist. i do not believe in infant baptism. can you please tell me, does excommunication is practiced at all in methodism? in other words, when person is baptized as an infant and thus declared a christian and a methodist, and then he grows up and shows no signs of conversion and salvation but lives in sin, is he excommunicated and declared a non-christian or does he go around claiming that he is a methodist?:confused:
 

seeking.IAM

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Hmmm. Interesting questions. Others may (and probably will) disagree but I don't think Baptism makes you a Methodist. I am no theologian but I believe that infant Baptism merely seals you as a child of God and elicits promises from your parents and the church to bring you up in the church and nurture your faith. One might argue that you become a Methodist when you share Methodist beliefs, become like-minded with other Methodists, and join a Christian community with them. Others might argue that you become a Methodist after you have taken confirmation class and become a confirmed member of the Methodist Church, pledging to support it with your gifts, service, and presence.

Excommunication is largely a theoretical possibilitly, not a concrete reality for most UMC Methodists. I've been hanging out in Methodist Churches for about 49 years and I have never known of anyone or heard of anyone being excommunicated. We are actually a pretty forgiving lot. :groupray: Of course, if you stop attending and we still have to pay conference apportionments on you, we will drop you from membership after a couple of years. :mad: Even then, I don't think you are considered to be excommunicated.

I think you stand a better chance of getting struck my lightning than be excommunicated from the United Methodist Church.

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seeking.IAM

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molchog said:
how about other methodist/wesleyan/nazarene bodies? are they any better (more biblical than this)?:scratch:

More Biblical? Do you mean any that require that one be baptized in the River Jordan by someone wearing a garment of camel's hair and leather and living in the wilderness? Or do you mean adult baptism? Or do you mean immersion. Or do you mean kicking someone out of church is more Biblical?

As for declaring someone non-Christian and kicking them out of the church, I'll think you'll find most persons of the Methodist persuasion will believe that such decisions about which sinners are and are not worthy of grace is best left up to the Almighty.

We're all sinners. C.S. Lewis said the church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints.

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molchog

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here are some bible texts on the subject of church discipline, :o


2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.
2Th 3:11 For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busybodies.
Th 3:12 Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living.
2Th 3:13 As for you, brothers, do not grow weary in doing good.
Th 3:14 If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed.
2Th 3:15 Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

1Co 5:9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people--
1Co 5:10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
1Co 5:11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
1Co 5:13 God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."

Mat 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Mat 18:15 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
Mat 18:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
Mat 18:18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


 
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seeking.IAM

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molchog said:
Mat 18:15 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
Mat 18:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
Mat 18:18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.



I have a Methodist Book of Discipline from the late 1800's. It contains the procedure quoted above as a means to handle members' transgressions. The BOD even goes so far as to spell out what kinds of transgressions should be responded to in this manner. One of the ones listed is attending a theatre.

Ever been to a good play or a movie, molchog? Oops, sorry, you're out. Can't be having that! :)

My point is that Bible also says not to judge. Who gets to judge? Who gets to decide what sins the church rebukes and which ones we don't? How come in the late 1800's going to a theatre could get me put out of the Methodist Church, but in 2004 we're all climbing on the church bus to go to the theatre to see The Passion of the Christ as organized by the Pastor?

I believe in sin. I believe in judgement. I just don't believe that it is my place to define another's sin or sit in judgement over them. I have a hard enough time trying to manage my own sinful ways. As for others, I'd rather have them continuing to sit in the pew beside me continuing to hear the message of our Lord and his plan for redemption of mankind. I plan to continue to sit there until I get it right. The church is made up of a bunch of mortal sinners, who make mistakes in their behavior, their discernment, and their judgement. We have an omneisicient God; why not let Him handle it?

There are some other Christian groups that do practice shunning. I have heard of it among the Amish and in some Apostolic churches. There may be others. If that is really important to you, perhaps you should explore those groups as well. If you continue your interest in Methodism, I invite you to come worship with us and see for yourself.

seeking.IAM
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ClementofRome

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seeking.IAM said:
I think you stand a better chance of getting struck my lightning than be excommunicated from the United Methodist Church.
At first, I got a good laugh out of this and said to myself, "THATS FOR SURE!" Then, after some reflection I said to myself, "Thank God! As one who is least in the Kingdom, the last thing I need is that kind of pressure! "

Thanks seeking.IAM!
 
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molchog

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Th 3:14 If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed.
2Th 3:15 Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

1Co 5:9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people--
1Co 5:10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
1Co 5:11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
1Co 5:13 God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."

Mat 16:19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Mat 18:15"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
Mat 18:16But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
Mat 18:17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
Mat 18:18Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
 
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molchog

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"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be
ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain
babblings
: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word
will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who
concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past
already; and overthrow the faith of some" (2 Tim. 2:15-18).
 
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molchog

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The Lord Jesus Christ commanded, "Judge righteous judgment" (John 7:24).

He told a man, "Thou hast rightly judged" (Luke 7:43).

To others, our Lord asked, "Why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?" (Luke 12:57).

The Apostle Paul wrote, "I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say" (1 Corinthians 10:15).

Again, Paul declared, "He that is spiritual judgeth all things" (1 Corinthians 2:15). It is our positive duty to judge.
 
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molchog

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"Misunderstood and Misused Scripture

One of the best known and most misunderstood and misapplied Scriptures is "Judge not" (Matthew 7:1). Let us examine the entire passage:

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye" (Matthew 7:1-5).

Read this again carefully. Notice that it is addressed to a hypocrite!-not to those who sincerely want to discern whether a teacher or teaching is true or false to God's Word. And instead of being a prohibition against honest judgment, it is a solemn warning against hypocritical judgment. In fact, the last statement of this Scripture commands sincere judgment-"Then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." If we take a verse or a part of a verse out of its setting, we can make the Word of God appear to teach the very opposite of what it really does teach. And those who do this cannot escape the judgment of God for twisting His Word (2 Peter 3:16). Let this be a warning to us never again to take a text of Scriptureout of its context.

Many who piously quote, "Judge not," out of its context, in order to defend that which is false to God's Word, do not see their own inconsistency in thus judging those who would obey God's Word about judging that which is untrue to the Bible. It is tragic that so much that is anti-Scriptural has undeservedly found shelter behind a misuse of the Scripture just quoted. The reason the professed church of Christ is today honeycombed and paralyzed by satanic Modernism is because Christians have not obeyed the commands of God's Word to judge and put away and separate from false teachers and false teaching when they first appeared in their midst. Physical health is maintained by separation from disease germs. Spiritual health is maintained by separation from germs of false doctrine. The greatest peril of our day is not too much judging, but too little judging of spiritual falsehood.

God wants His children to be like the noble Bereans who "searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so"(Acts 17:11).

Romans 2:1-3 is also addressed to the religious hypocrite who condemned himself because he was guilty of the same things for which he condemned others. James 4:11-12 refers to an evil spirit of backbiting and fault finding, not to judging whether teachers or teachings agree or disagree with God's Word. The Bible never contradicts itself. To understand one portion of Scripture we must view it in the light of all Scripture. "No prophecy of the Scripture is of any private [isolated] interpretation" (2 Peter 1:20). "Comparing spiritual things [words] with spiritual" (1 Corinthians 2:13).

The "Wheat and Tares" parable of Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43, is much misunderstood. First of all, our Lord is talking about the world, not His Church-"the field is the world." He goes on to say that "the good seed are the children of the Kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one" (Matthew 13:38) . They are the two groups in the world; children of God-those who have received Christ (John 1:12), and the children of the devil-those who reject Christ (John 8:44). When any of the "children of the wicked one" get into the professed church of Christ, as they have always done, a definite procedure for God's children is set forth in His Word. First, it is their duty to tell them that they have "neither part nor lot" in Christ (see Acts 8:21-23 and context).

If the children of the devil do not leave voluntarily, asis generally the case, God's children are commanded to "purge out" (1 Corinthians 5:7) these unbelievers. But God's people have disobeyed His Word about this, and so unbelievers [and disobedient brethren- 2 Thessalonians 3:6,14-15] have gotten into control, as is now the case in most denominations. Therefore, those who purpose to be true to Christ and His Word are commanded to "come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord" (2 Corinthians 6:17), regardless of property or any other considerations. When we obey God's Word, we can trust Him to take care of all the consequences of our obedience."
 
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