Lutherans and the Rosary

[BrokenGhost]

It was told to me once, and I dont know how accurate the source may have been, that Luther was buried with his Rosary. Do Lutherans say the Rosary and believe in Saints?

 

[DaSeminarian]

It was told to me once, and I dont know how accurate the source may have been, that Luther was buried with his Rosary. Do Lutherans say the Rosary and believe in Saints?

I can't say whether the story of him being buried with the Rosary is true or not. As a general practice though, we do not use the rosary when we pray. However, there is a rosary that Luther did create for those who wanted to continue this tradition. I will let others tell you about it.

 

[Melethiel]

Some Lutherans say a modified version of the Rosary (usually, the Hail Marys are replaced with the Jesus Prayer). While Lutherans do believe in the communion of Saints, we do not pray to the Saints to ask for their intercession. However, there are days to commemorate various Saints, and many churches hold services to commemorate them - always remembering that the purpose of the Saints is to point to Christ.

 

[NoMoreHopelessness]

Actually: What are Saints? Aren't we all? Why do you speak of St. Paul or St. Peter?

 

[DaSeminarian]

Actually: What are Saints? Aren't we all? Why do you speak of St. Paul or St. Peter?

To answer your question in the broadest of terms, Yes we are all saints. However, in the narrowest terms we venerate or commemorate those Saints like Paul, Peter, Andrew, James and the rest of the Apostles in regards to their heavenly birthday (earthly death) because of what was given by them to promote the Christian faith.

We do not pray to them, but recognize their sacrifice.

 

[DaRev]

There is a Lutheran version of a rosary. The explanation of it and an outline are available at the links below.

http://orthodoxlutheran.fws1.com/bvm/rosary.html

http://orthodoxlutheran.fws1.com/bvm/lutheranrosary.pdf

 

[WildStrawberry]

Another good Lutheran Rosary site (from someone who didn't go east ) is http://www.aaronfenker.net/rosary.php

I use the rosary when I need something to focus my thoughts. I have trouble sometimes getting quiet enough to pray...getting my brain to shut off the world and let me focus on talking with God. So, I use the rosary as a tactile reminder that I'm talking with God.

Kae

 

[BrokenGhost]

There is a Lutheran version of a rosary. The explanation of it and an outline are available at the links below.

http://orthodoxlutheran.fws1.com/bvm/rosary.html

http://orthodoxlutheran.fws1.com/bvm/lutheranrosary.pdf

I saw that, but figured I would ask around as evidently the man who wrote that has since become a Catholic.

 

[DaRev]

Another good Lutheran Rosary site (from someone who didn't go east ) is http://www.aaronfenker.net/rosary.php

The rosary on that site is almost identical with the PDF file from the Orthodox Lutheran site.

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

I pray the Lutheran rosary from http://www.aaronfenker.net/rosary.php. I find comfort in the fact that the Jesus prayer is used over the marian prayers. The history of the Jesus prayer is amazing too. Imagine a pattern of prayers on the rosary beads that doesn't worship Mary!That's why it's great to be a Lutheran.

 

[synger]

The Jesus prayer is ancient. The Orthodox use it on their prayer ropes (150 knots). From my research, it seems that rosaries were originally used by hermits and monastics for praying the Psalms (three groups of 50 = 150 on the Orthodox rope or = 3 rounds of the Roman rosary). It wasn't until the Dominicans began doing ritual Marian prayers that the rosary as we think of it today started.

So I have taught gem to pray the rosary, using the Jesus prayer, or the thief's prayer ("Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom"). Also be aware that it is not just repetitious rote prayers... while you pray the main prayer (marian, or Jesus, or thief's), you are to meditate upon Scripture or upon people for whom you are interceding.

So, for instance, when we were studying Moses freeing the Hebrews from Egypt, Gem and I focused on 1) God guiding Moses through the burning bush 2) God guiding Moses through the plagues 3) God guiding Moses and the people with a pillar of fire and a pillar of cloud 4) God guiding Moses and the people in the desert, and when they were afraid and turned from Him, He let them wander for 40 years, and finally 5) God guiding Joshua and the second generation into the Promised Land.

We've done other meditations using the Mysteries of Jesus' life, as the Catholics do, or in focusing on various parts of her Sunday School lesson.

We don't do it all the time, but it's a nice tool in the prayer toolbox when one has some time and wishes that sort of communion in prayer.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Some Lutherans say a modified version of the Rosary (usually, the Hail Marys are replaced with the Jesus Prayer). While Lutherans do believe in the communion of Saints, we do not pray to the Saints to ask for their intercession. However, there are days to commemorate various Saints, and many churches hold services to commemorate them - always remembering that the purpose of the Saints is to point to Christ.

I agree....

We all know that Luther's Mariology was very close to the Catholicism of the day, but especially later in life, he did clearly take a stand against requesting the saints to pray for us (a point I'm not sure Luther - and the Confessions - are correct about, but that's another issue for another day and thread). I understand that the wording of the Rosary was a bit different in Luther's day - but I've never taken the time to research that.

In my 'Catholic days,' I did the Rosary many times. The only part that I think a modern Lutheran would object to is the "pray for us now and at the moment of our death" part. That sentence could be deleted or replaced and I don't think there would be anything contrary to the Confessions - but perhaps I'm missing something.

My "problem" with the Rosary has little to do with the wording of it (that single line probably contrary to the Lutheran Confessions, however). And I KNOW that it is a rich spiritual blessing to a LOT of people - VERY meaningful and helpful to them. And frankly, it seems hard to denounce the Creed or the Lord's Prayer or the reading of Scripture that is 95% of the Rosary. Perhaps the Rosary has lead many a Catholic to the Gospel. My "problem" with it is the shere repetition of it. It's just a personal thing, but after awhile I just want to screme "YEAH, I KNOW!" It's the same with some songs (some Contemporary ones drive me NUTS on this - I think if I hear "yes, Lord, yes, Lord, yes, yes, yes" one more time I'm gonna throw something at the praise band..... Actually my church evades such most of the time). It's a personal thing.



True story. During the years that I was going to my Dad's Protestant church, my buddy's Catholic church, and a part of an evangelical/fundamentalist homeschool group (often doing things at their churches), it was known by all that I was pretty spread out. Anyway, at my homeschool group one time (I was probably 14 or 15), the issue of the Rosary came up (remember: these are evangelical/fundamentalist teens - not a Catholic, Lutheran or Anglican in sight). I told them that I owned one and sometimes did it, so they (and our adult leaders) asked me to bring it next time. So I did. In fact, I went through it briefly showing how it worked and what was said. They were stunned. "What's wrong with that?" was pretty much the universal response (ah, that single line did come up, however).



Just my $0.00


Pax


- Josiah




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[DaRev]

The only part that I think a modern Lutheran would object to is the "pray for us now and at the moment of our death" part.

That line was actually added at the Council of Trent. The pre-Trent version of the "Hail Mary" is basically right from Luke 2, "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ. Amen." It is simply a way to honor the mother of God, not a request for intercession. Even in that form it is still a bit problematic for me, but I don't begrudge others from saying it.

 

[Tofferer]

Personally, I love rosaries. I think they are beautiful. I think I have only prayed the rosary once in my life. Oddly, it was during my agnostic phase in life in which, quite frankly, it was me that I wasn't sure I believed in (not certain that I believe in myself now either, but for other reasons). If I remember rightly, it was around the time of the death of my great-grandmother back in 1993.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

That line was actually added at the Council of Trent. The pre-Trent version of the "Hail Mary" is basically right from Luke 2, "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ. Amen." It is simply a way to honor the mother of God, not a request for intercession. Even in that form it is still a bit problematic for me, but I don't begrudge others from saying it.

Thank you.

I CERTAINLY have no 'issues' with the practice or words in the pre-Trent form... I don't believe this would be a practice that would be especially helpful to my spirituality for the reason already stated, but I'm fully supportive of the tool for those who do find it helpful.





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[vle045]

There is a Lutheran version of a rosary. The explanation of it and an outline are available at the links below.

http://orthodoxlutheran.fws1.com/bvm/rosary.html

http://orthodoxlutheran.fws1.com/bvm/lutheranrosary.pdf

Thanks for that. I found that to be very interesting.

I am struggling so hard righ now with Catholicism, and many of the points on that site actually address some of the same concerns that I have. If I were not married to a Catholic, I would not even consider it. But since I am, I have been learning about it... and it's not at all what I thought.

 

[vle045]

Something that puzzles me about the use of the Rosary is HOW you are supposed to contemplate the various "Mysteries" when you are too busy reciting chants?

Maybe I am alone in this, but if I am focusing on reciting a prayer and counting on beads, I really can't think about anything else. And if I were to contemplate the selected Mystery, I would personally need to open up the Bible to the referenced Passages in order to contemplate them.

That's just how my mind works. I really have to concentrate on something in order to think about it... and chanting and counting would hinder me rather than help me.

But the idea of simply holiding it as a tool to keep you centered on your spiritual thoughts, that I can go along with....

Of course, if it works differently for others, that's cool... but if I were "required" to do it, it would just simply be chanting and counting without any other thoughts. My mind just can't focus that way.

 

[Melethiel]

I suppose it works differently for everybody...I don't do it too often, but I find that reciting the prayers helps to keep my mind from wandering when contemplating the Mysteries - which I don't need to look up, as I know the stories quite well. Everybody's mind works differently.

 

[RadMan]

Something that puzzles me about the use of the Rosary is HOW you are supposed to contemplate the various "Mysteries" when you are too busy reciting chants?

Maybe I am alone in this, but if I am focusing on reciting a prayer and counting on beads, I really can't think about anything else. And if I were to contemplate the selected Mystery, I would personally need to open up the Bible to the referenced Passages in order to contemplate them.

That's just how my mind works. I really have to concentrate on something in order to think about it... and chanting and counting would hinder me rather than help me.

But the idea of simply holiding it as a tool to keep you centered on your spiritual thoughts, that I can go along with....

Of course, if it works differently for others, that's cool... but if I were "required" to do it, it would just simply be chanting and counting without any other thoughts. My mind just can't focus that way.

I agree ---- chanting and singing are outside interferences to concentrating on the "Word". Rosaries would be the same way. It's almost within the same realm as "vain repetition". I believe in the spoken and written Word. Chanting, singing and organs works are just for edification only. Whose edification? Sometimes I wonder.

 

[InTheCloud]

A neurology book I read talked about why some religious practices have your brain think in two different things at the same time. I creates a special state consiouness. I guess the Rosary meets that cathegory.
If nice to learn about the Lutheran "Rosary" or prayer beads, and variants. One defect I have found among todays Catholicism its that the only meditative prayer currently being taught to most people is the Marian Rosary. The Jesus Prayer is rarely done (but I have seen it done), and the Divine Office is almost never done by layty.
And the Divine Office was the forerunner of the Marian Rosary. Basically it was a reading of the Psalms al 150 of them in 3 round of 50 with other prayers between rounds. Since poor people cannot read or afford to own Bibles in the Middle Ages, and after the Cathary heresy Bibles became harder to get, the friars, some say the Dominicans, some say the Franciscans, invented the Marian Rosary because was easy to memorice by iliterante peasants.
The first place of the Hail Mary came out of Luke 2, the expresion Mother of God came from the East, and arose during the arrian heresy. I do not know if the please pray for us part was added in Trent.
Trent in many ways confirmed things that were already there. Probably was a variant that became the official one in Trent.