Lutheran Ideals vs. Presbyterian

[12ogue]

Are there certain ideals or traditions that Lutherans practice that are quite different from a Presbyterian's? After watching the Luther movie at school, I was very interested in what he actually did and how his ideals came into play into Lutheranism.

 

[ricg]

Are there certain ideals or traditions that Lutherans practice that are quite different from a Presbyterian's? After watching the Luther movie at school, I was very interested in what he actually did and how his ideals came into play into Lutheranism.

There are many. Perhaps the most important is the difference in beliefs respecting the "real presence" of Jesus in the Lord's Supper. Essentially, Lutherans believe that the true body and blood of Christ are present in a mystical "sacramental union" with the bread and wine, whereas Presbyterians, as I understand it, believe in a spiritual presence of Christ in the Lord's Supper.

 

[BigNorsk]

There's the theology differences. Communion beliefs were already mentioned. As most Presbyterians are Calvinists. There is disagreement on some of those things. Lutherans believe in the predestination only of the elect, general atonement, and that it is possible to "lose" one's salvation by no longer having faith. Interestingly, I've met many Presbyterians that reject so much of Calvinism that they are really close there.

Presbyterians tend to be more into Covenant Theology, meaning they stress it and study it more.

There also seems to be a basic difference in the understanding of sanctification, we're just discussing that now. Not sure that I would be ready to try and state the difference but there is one.

You also find differences in more nontheological places such as church government. My synod uses a modified presbyterian form of local government with the synod government being congregational. Others are congregational with more emphasis on voter assemblies and congregational offices. Others are set up with bishops and such.

Both Presbyterians and Lutherans have liberals and conservatives. Generally they are identified outside their groups more by the liberal branches, they seem to get in the news more.

Oh, and Lutherans have the best potlucks.

Marv

 

[Melethiel]

Lutherans are cooler.

 

[seajoy]

Are there certain ideals or traditions that Lutherans practice that are quite different from a Presbyterian's? After watching the Luther movie at school, I was very interested in what he actually did and how his ideals came into play into Lutheranism.

Did you see the Luther movie at a Presbyterian parochial school? I'm just curious as to why it was shown at your school , and what type of school you attend.

I'm Lutheran, and I tend to like a lot of what I hear about Dr D James Kennedy (I think he's a Presbyterian pastor ). We may disagree on some theology, I suppose :o .

seajoy

 

[stumpjumper]

I think it also depends upon what Presbyterian synod you are referencing (PCA or PCUSA) and what modern Lutheran synod (ELCA, WELS, or LCMS in the US)...

There are obviously some differences in Church structure (ie Deacons and elders in the Presbyterian Church...) and there are some theological differences that are born out in the various confessions...

My sister and brother in law are PCA Presbyterian and comparing their beliefs to ELCA is like night and day...

They're still cool though...

 

[12ogue]

Did you see the Luther movie at a Presbyterian parochial school? I'm just curious as to why it was shown at your school , and what type of school you attend.

I'm Lutheran, and I tend to like a lot of what I hear about Dr D James Kennedy (I think he's a Presbyterian pastor ). We may disagree on some theology, I suppose :o .

seajoy

Actually, my school is a public high school based in Fullerton, CA. I was quite surprised that my AP European teacher would show such a film. It even had a specific Lutheran Church credit in the intro of the film. I could probably say that it wasn't necessarily an entirely "religious" film because the school would find out right away. The Christian Club in our school was forbidden to perform an outside prayer, which did offend many of the members in the group. But after watching that movie, I was so inspired by Luther and what he actually did. All of his ideals seem very vivid and true; hence, I'm seeing if I can comfortably connect into a Lutheran church. Being born into a Presbyterian/Baptist-like family, I wasn't so sure of faith as it was back then. It was placed in my life as sort of a mandatory force rather than a choice i can make for myself. I can easily say that with Lutheran ideas, I can connect.

 

[LutherNut]

The Christian Club in our school was forbidden to perform an outside prayer, which did offend many of the members in the group.

Sorry to change the subject of the OP, but I couldn't pass this by.

The school cannot legally prohibit a Christian club from praying on the school grounds. The first line of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." If the club wanted to push it, they have the muscle to do so right there.

 

[Zecryphon]

Sorry to change the subject of the OP, but I couldn't pass this by.

The school cannot legally prohibit a Christian club from praying on the school grounds. The first line of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." If the club wanted to push it, they have the muscle to do so right there.

The Christian Club at your school should go to www.aclj.org or .com and get vital information. According to the ACLJ and similar groups, the Supreme Court has ruled that a school can not prohibit a student initiated expression of religion. That goes for student led bible studies, Christian groups, prayer groups etc. If it is student initiated and led, the school system can not do anything to stop it. To do so is a violation of that students first amendment rights. You do have a lawsuit on your hands if you should choose to pursue it.

 

[12ogue]

The Christian Club at your school should go to www.aclj.org or .com and get vital information. According to the ACLJ and similar groups, the Supreme Court has ruled that a school can not prohibit a student initiated expression of religion. That goes for student led bible studies, Christian groups, prayer groups etc. If it is student initiated and led, the school system can not do anything to stop it. To do so is a violation of that students first amendment rights. You do have a lawsuit on your hands if you should choose to pursue it.

Wow I had no knowledge of that. Sadly, my school changed quite a bit recently, with new staff and principal. I guess if the Christian Club wishes to openly pray outside amongst people, it could be done THIS time

 

[Protoevangel]

The Christian Club at your school should go to www.aclj.org or .com and get vital information. According to the ACLJ and similar groups, the Supreme Court has ruled that a school can not prohibit a student initiated expression of religion. That goes for student led bible studies, Christian groups, prayer groups etc. If it is student initiated and led, the school system can not do anything to stop it. To do so is a violation of that students first amendment rights. You do have a lawsuit on your hands if you should choose to pursue it.

A few years ago, a teacher tried to prohibit my daughter from taking her Bible to school. The ACLJ helped me to contact the teacher and the principal with information on the laws involved. I got a personal apology from the principal, and my daughter was told that she was absolutely allowed to bring her Bible to school any time, and could read it whenever she was allowed to do anything of a personal nature (recess, after tests and assignments, etc). Unfortunately, the initial encounter with the teacher intimidated her, and she never wanted to take her Bible to school again.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Oh, and Lutherans have the best potlucks.

Marv

Some other things I'd add, kinda with Presbyterians in mind:


Lutherans have the cutest girls...

They have more fun...

They just don't take it all SOOO seriously...

They can laugh at themselves (in fact, they like to)...

They drink beer, Presbyterians (if they drink at all) drink white wine where as Anglicans drink gin - straight.

They are absolutely sure God loves us all - in spite of ourselves. Ain't God great?!





- Josiah

 

[Protoevangel]

Anglicans drink gin - straight.

Filthy lies.... Call me an Anglican, indeed!


Gimme a double Bombay Sapphire Martini... Hold the Vermouth!

 

[12ogue]

Lutherans have the cutest girls...



- Josiah

Wowzahz! Better keep that in mind

 

[BigNorsk]

Josiah knows about the girls, he's been to all kinds of churches until kind of settling at a Lutheran one-with his girlfriend.

Another thing I hadn't thought of earlier, I'm actually not too sure how the Presbyterians believe concerning the Theology of the cross versus the Theology of glory.

TC looks to Jesus and the Cross as proof of our standing with God.

TG looks to ourselves for proof of our standing.

In explanation, if asked if they are saved a Lutheran would think something like this: Jesus died for me and paid for my sins on the cross, he said that whomsoever believes shall be saved. I believe, therefore, I am saved. It doesn't have anything to do with deserving it.

People into the theology of glory would think something like, I prayed the sinner's prayer, or I asked God into my heart, or I don't drink, smoke or date girls that do or something like that as proof of their standing. It's kind of a works based righteousness, even though many of it's teachers would bitterly complain about being so labelled.

Lutherans really stress we can't save ourselves, it is God who saves us. At first those who are used to the theology of glory thinks that that takes away their security, but how can anything based on man be secure. The theolgy of glory is where you get ideas like invalid baptisms based on you weren't old enough, or you didn't believe (at least you can't remember if you did) or such. Lutherans see baptism as the work of God, how can a person make God's work invalid?

No other group is as Christocentric (Christ centered) as Lutherans. Luther questioned those books of the Bible where he could not see them pointing to Christ, because that the whole purpose of the Bible is to point to Christ (back to theology of the Cross). As time went on he came to realize how even those books that he didn't see Christ in the beginning still did indeed fit, but a lot of criticism of Luther you run into falls into taking his early questions and extrapolating them. The legacy of his questions that remains to this day is German Bibles have a different order of books with the least Christocentric ones at the end of the New Testament.

Enough on that, but I would encourage you to do some reading on the theology of the cross. A lot of young Christians are greatly burdened by the yoke placed on their shoulders by the theology of glory and once they grasp the theology of the cross they come to realize how true it was when Jesus said his yoke was light. A lot of people never get it and their self-imposed yokes are anything but light.

Matthew 11:28-30 NET. Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. (29) Take my yoke on you and learn from me, because I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. (30) For my yoke is easy to bear, and my load is not hard to carry."

Marv

 

[synger]

Concerning the potlucks and such...

So far, they've been almost exactly the same. The Lutheran church we attend has more food, more often... but the food's about the same quality-wise.

Dunno about having more fun. I think that depends on the church congregation. In the Presbyterian church we used to belong to, there was always some retreat or youth event or something going on, whereas in the Lutheran church we attend now, there is much less of that. However the Presbyterian church was much larger, too.

As to taking it seriously... I think I agree with you there. Many Presbyterians take doctrine and history very seriously. Many of the first colleges in the country were Presbyterian. Scholarly-ness is very important among the ministers and their sermons. In the Lutheran church, the sermons seem much more... "where the rubber hits the road." They're not unscholarly, of course. But they're not so high-brow that you can't understand or apply them. My husband is MUCH happier with Lutheran sermons than he was with Presbyterian ones. And I get my doctrine-fix by chatting with Pastor or reading the confessions and catechisms. (If I don't, I start getting withdrawal shakes... *grins*)

Not sure about the drinking thing, though. My folks were solid Presbyterians, and always had liquor and beer on hand. And my daughter's Lutheran godmother has her own little wine cellar, so the suggestion about beer is not universal. Of course, it's all generalizations.

 

[synger]

TC vs. TG

In the PCUSA (in which I was ordained an elder), there are two books with make up the consitution of the church. One is the Book of Order. The other is the Book of Confessions. There are, of course, many who are Presbyterian who disagree with portions of the confessions (just as there are many Lutherans who don't study or agree with everything in the Book of Concord).

However, from my study of the confessions and catechisms, I can offer that Presbyterian theology is strictly the theology of the cross. In fact, my impression of reformed theology in general is that it starts from the premise of God's sovereignty and power. Everything else flows from that. Thus, we can do nothing, not even "pray the sinner's prayer" that would take away from God's gift of grace through his sacrifice on the cross.

In addition, this is probably what leads to the so-called "double predestination" of strict reformed teaching. God is sovereign, and thus knows all. Therefore not only does he choose the elect to be saved (predestination), but he also chooses those who will not be saved. This is a very hard teaching, and is one of the things that many Presbyterians would disagree with (and is debated endlessly among those who are doctrine-minded).

Of course, there are many who are Presbyterian who follow a theology of glory instead. But the confessions and catechisms of the Presbyterian church clearly teach the theology of the cross alone.

 

[BigNorsk]

I've never been able to get a handle on the predestination theology that seems to be a part of the Presbyterian tradition, because it often seems to so stress the sovereignity of God that it seems people become little more than puppets. Yet at the same time, Calvin clearly and emphatically said that man cooperates in his sanctification. So there seems to be quite a tension there and I would suspect that there would be quite a diversity of where Presbyterians fall in their stress of one or the other. I've never been able to figure out where the orthodox Presbyterian would be on the continuum.

Marv

 

[synger]

The way I was taught in the Presbyterian church, God is both the author and perfector of our faith. Faith itself is a gift of God, and not of our own doing. Thus, there is nothing we can DO to come to God. He chooses, He gives faith, He brings us to Him. That is in the grand scheme of God-time that we as humans cannot understand or participate in. Justification comes ONLY from God.

That being said, we have our responsibilities and reactions in-time. (Perhaps it helps that I'm a sci-fi fan, so this doesn't give me as much confusion.) We respond to God's grace and mercy. We react to His love. This takes the form of works. Works are not something we do to gain God's favor, but rather are our response to His love and mercy. Thus, even works come from the power that flows from Him and are not our own. But that does not make us puppets that are forced to do this or that. God works through us, yes. But He does not just send us forth as little automatons.

In this, the strict Reformed theology doesn't seem much different from the strict Lutheran theology. My Lutheran pastor has been teaching us much the same as we go through the Augsburg Confession in Sunday School.

It's more in the means of grace, the Sacraments especially, that the doctrines seem to differ widely.

But at heart, I still have Calvinist leanings. Everything in my theology stems first from God's sovereignty. All else follows. So I have some interesting debates with my Lutheran pastor as we study the confessions.

 

[kenrapoza]

Are there certain ideals or traditions that Lutherans practice that are quite different from a Presbyterian's? After watching the Luther movie at school, I was very interested in what he actually did and how his ideals came into play into Lutheranism.

Though I am not Lutheran or Presbytrian (or qualified to answer the question! LOL), the first thing that comes to my mind is that Presyterians traditionally hold to a Calvinist soteriology. I believe that the Lutherans do not, though they do have a very good view of man's inability to contribute to his own salvation (I think). Also the church structure is a bit different.

Luther is somewhat of a personal hero of mine and I'm interested in learning in what way the church today which bears his name has propagated and/or modified his teachings, especially the differences between the more liberal groups like the ELCA and conservative groups such as the LCMS. BTW, do you belong to the PCA or PCUSA?