LCMS versus WELS

[intheway]

What are the major differences between LCMS and WELS? In addition what are the histories of the two denominations breaking away?
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[seajoy]

What are the major differences between LCMS and WELS? In addition what are the histories of the two denominations breaking away?​

Welcome.
It might help to narrow your question a little. What are you specifically looking to find out? What are you looking for in a church? Or maybe you are just curious.

I have belonged to both Synods (I am now WELS). Both are confessional/conservative church bodies who believe in Christ as the only way to salvation. Both believe in the inerrency of Scripture.

One big difference in the two is that women can vote in the LCMS. The WELS views this as a woman being head over a man in the church, so we do not have the right to hold certain offices or vote. Neither have women pastors.

There are other issues that I'm sure are different with the two. I believe there also is a difference in the synod structure, in that the LCMS sees it's churches as being separate entities from the synod. In the WELS, the entire synod and it's churches are considered one church. Someone else may be better able to explain that than I.

As for the split. I'm not up on what all happened, but something called Seminex had much to do with it.

I don't know how much help I was. I'm sure others will have much more input. I hold both synods very dear to my heart. I learned about Jesus, and the foundation of my faith was strengthened from both.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Just MY fallible, personal understanding....


I'M not aware of any theological differences, and both are very conservative.

As was noted above, I think there is a slight difference in how the denomination is viewed. The LCMS sees the denomination as a loose association of congregations (from the bottom, up), each congregation is individually owned, etc.

But I think the only significant difference is that old, pesty "FELLOWSHIP" issue. There's a long and not-so-nice history of this praxis among American Lutherans - especially the conservative ones. I think the "split" (they were never one denomination, but they did closely associate and cooperate in the Synodical Conference which ended in the late 1950's I think when WELS pulled out) was in part over the Boy Scouts of America. In the LCMS, it was common to actually sponsor a troop. In WELS, this was considered "unionism" (for conservative Lutherans, this word seems to be as bad as "liberalism"). I was a part of the BSA for some years, and yes they occasionally have chaplains (I was one), there is that whole thing about "GOD and country" (I have that award), and we prayed before we ate a meal. Scouting is British and in the UK, they don't have the very, very sharp "separation of church and state" that we have in the US - and this is reflected in scouting. My troop was not affiliated with any congregation so this was a small part of things, but there are "Catholic" or "Baptist" or "LDS" troops where religion is a significant part of scouting. And the religious aspects are keep pretty vague. This concerns WELS, so much so that they had "issues" with the LCMS that didn't seem as concerned about that. My own pastor told me about his pastor who angered some when he'd make a hospital visit and would include other patients in the room - even if they were not in "altar and pulpit fellowship" with the LCMS. This is the stuff conservative American Lutherans seem to fight over. Nice we seem to have nothing else to fight over!

It's a "legit" issue, IMHO, just not so simple to "resolve." I don't think the OFFICIAL positions of the two denominations are very different, but in practice, the LCMS draws that line slightly wider and fuzzier than WELS. And while WELS is much smaller, it's also more consistent. The far larger LCMS has a range of practices, so that some congregations (and I guess even districts) are essentially the same as WELS whereas the other LCMS church in town may be more "embracing" - it simply varies more in the LCMS. There might be 9 Lutheran churches in a town - 3 ELCA, 3 LCMS and 3 WELS. The 3 ELCA churches are going to be quite similar in their practice of fellowship (fairly "open"), the 3 WELS are going to be almost identical in their practice of fellowship (fairly "close") but the 3 LCMS congregations could be distinctively different in their actual practices. The LCMS "stuggles" with this, as I understand we have for a very, very long time.

Because both LCMS and WELS are very conservative theologically and biblically, and because both place GREAT importance on that, we are very close siblings. No identical twins, but close brothers.


That's just MY understanding.


Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah





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[DaRev]

http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuTopic_topicID=62&cuItem_itemID=14976

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2149

These 2 links will give you each synod's version of the differences.

Oh, and Seminex occured several years after fellowship was broken.

 

[seajoy]

http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuTopic_topicID=62&cuItem_itemID=14976

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2149

These 2 links will give you each synod's version of the differences.

Oh, and Seminex occured several years after fellowship was broken.

Thanks

 

[usafbrat64]

Thanks for the links, Rev. It reinforced much of what I thought was the difference.

As LCMS I do struggle with the extremism of the "fellowship" concept that WELS has. Being military we move all over and don't always have a proper LCMS church to worship in, especially overseas. We were blessed in Germany to always have a Lutheran chaplain assigned to our base. My friend, who was WELS, absolutely refused to attend Divine Service because he was LCMS and not WELS. As a result they didn't attend worship or commune for 4 years. Another WELS family my husband worked with would join in at social occasions, but would not share a meal.

Is this the norm or am I just meeting the extremists?

Yvonne

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuTopic_topicID=62&cuItem_itemID=14976

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2149

These 2 links will give you each synod's version of the differences.

Thank you, that's very helpful....




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[seajoy]

Thanks for the links, Rev. It reinforced much of what I thought was the difference.

As LCMS I do struggle with the extremism of the "fellowship" concept that WELS has. Being military we move all over and don't always have a proper LCMS church to worship in, especially overseas. We were blessed in Germany to always have a Lutheran chaplain assigned to our base. My friend, who was WELS, absolutely refused to attend Divine Service because he was LCMS and not WELS. As a result they didn't attend worship or commune for 4 years. Another WELS family my husband worked with would join in at social occasions, but would not share a meal.

Is this the norm or am I just meeting the extremists?

Yvonne

Uhhh, you are meeting extremists. Both of those seem way out there to me. I have no problem attending and worshipping at an LCMS church. I have friends who are pastors and seminarians, and know of no one who wouldn't share a meal with a non-WELS person. That is just plain nuts. Our WELS pastor's daughter is dating an LCMS young man right now, and they are fine with it.

I pray with LCMS'ers too. In fact, we have one staying in our home right now, and we have prayed together several times.

I think in getting to know the WELS folks here in TCL, you will see we are not as you have witnessed in the other folks you met.
LCMS and WELS do not take Communion together, but it is the same on both sides.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Just quickly googling, I found an article by By Dr. Mark Braun, Associate Professor of Theology at Wisconsin Lutheran College (WELS) addressing the 1961 withdrawal of "altar and pulpit" fellowship with the LCMS and the resulting dissolution of the Synodical Confernece (which made for a lot of cooperation and joint ministry among the two denominations). He notes 4 reasons given for this at the time (1961):
1. The LCMS' involvement in military chaplaincy
2. The LCMS' involvement in scouting.
3. "Prayer fellowship" in the LCMS
4. An "apparent erosion in its insistence on the inerrancy of Scripture."
He notes the last point has since been resolved, the other 3 remain.

The article, some 10 pages long, centers almost entirely on the issue of the Boy Scouts of America and more generally on the issue of "fellowship." As I skimmed it, I could not help notice that lack of polemics in the discussion and the obvious emphasis that this is all ancient history - but obviously with results for our day. I'm very limited in the number of WELS people I know, but I've always felt very embraced. My own pastor mentioned them a couple of times in our discussions, always very positively, expressing his desire that the area pastors would at least meet together again. I sense no annamosity.





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[usafbrat64]

Uhhh, you are meeting extremists. Both of those seem way out there to me.
LCMS and WELS do not take Communion together, but it is the same on both sides.

Thank goodness!! I knew we didn't share communion and I don't have an issue with that. It was just the other behaviors that I couldn't understand. Glad to know that they are not the norm!

Yvonne

 

[seajoy]

Thank goodness!! I knew we didn't share communion and I don't have an issue with that. It was just the other behaviors that I couldn't understand. Glad to know that they are not the norm!

Yvonne

 

[DaRev]

Thanks for the links, Rev. It reinforced much of what I thought was the difference.

As LCMS I do struggle with the extremism of the "fellowship" concept that WELS has. Being military we move all over and don't always have a proper LCMS church to worship in, especially overseas. We were blessed in Germany to always have a Lutheran chaplain assigned to our base. My friend, who was WELS, absolutely refused to attend Divine Service because he was LCMS and not WELS. As a result they didn't attend worship or commune for 4 years. Another WELS family my husband worked with would join in at social occasions, but would not share a meal.

Is this the norm or am I just meeting the extremists?

Yvonne

That is unfortunately the norm for a majority of WELS folks. WELS normally do not pray with anyone but other WELS, so attending worship in any other church but a WELS church is a no-no.

 

[LutheranChick]

I'd like to put in my .02, for what it's worth. I'm not WELS, but I am ELS which is in fellowship with WELS. Personally I think you'll get a different answer from every person you ask, in regards to attending a church, and every Pastor has their own opinion as well. Neither WELS or ELS are forbidden to attend a non-WELS or ELS church for worship. Of couse we are encouraged to seek out one of our own Synod's churches for worship, but if there is not one to be found, we should be encouraged to find the 'most confessional' church we can, I would say. Since the two Synods practice close communion, I would not want to take communion at a church that was not ELS or WELS, but I have attended other churches from time to time.

As for the meal thing- shoot if we were that strict I couldn't eat with 1/2 my family!!! In fact when I was little, when my sister and her family were visiting us and we were having a meal together, I would recite the 'Lutheran' table prayer and my brother-in-law would recite the 'Catholic' table prayer!

 

[dinkime]

i have attended other denominations for services (including LCMS), i will not take communion with them (and have been offered in LCMS churches although i am not a member)...

as was stated before, ELCA will allow anyone to commune, WELS/ELS will allow WELS/ELS/churches in fellowship to commune, and with LCMS it depends on the church/pastor (first hand experience here) -- some will allow it and others will follow the doctrine and not allow you to commune unless you are a member of an LCMS church/church in fellowship

 

[seajoy]

That is unfortunately the norm for a majority of WELS folks. WELS normally do not pray with anyone but other WELS, so attending worship in any other church but a WELS church is a no-no.

I respectfully disagree. It is not the norm.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

It is supposed to be the norm. The WELS views worshipping in another church as claiming unity with that church and their beliefs. The WELS also believes that prayer is a form of worship, so we don't pray with others. We do pray FOR others, though.

Recently this question was asked in the Q&A section of wels.net. I think the answer is quite interesting and firmly states why we shouldn't attend other church services.

I won't attend an LCMS service. Not because I hate them, but because I am not in agreement with their stance on women in the church, amongst other things. If I were to attend an LCMS church, I would basically be saying that I have no problems with our doctrinal differences.

However, we don't practice not sharing meals with others, although we don't attend potlucks at other churches. I have no problems going to other church rummage sales, but some in the WELS frown on that as well (including my husband).

 

[Till]

He notes 4 reasons given for this at the time (1961):
1. The LCMS' involvement in military chaplaincy
2. The LCMS' involvement in scouting.
3. "Prayer fellowship" in the LCMS
4. An "apparent erosion in its insistence on the inerrancy of Scripture."
He notes the last point has since been resolved, the other 3 remain.

You guys must be in a very comfortable and luxurious situation that you can afford to be split and loose the power of unity over such unimportant issues.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

You guys must be in a very comfortable and luxurious situation that you can afford to be split and loose the power of unity over such unimportant issues.

Since there's biblical backing for why we believe what we believe, I don't think it's fair to call them "such unimportant issues".

At this point in time, I can only point to the problems the LCMS is having within its walls. As was pointed out earlier in this thread, you may find three LCMS churches in an area who all practice something different. One of those churches probably offers open communion. I foresee a day in the near future when some of the more liberal LCMS congregations will begin ordaining women, because of the already soft approach on the role of women in the church. Once you start cherry picking which parts of the bible to follow, it becomes very easy to throw out other parts as well. This is what the ELCA has done on a whole and we see where that has taken them.

The WELS went off on the wrong track quite some time ago and it was the LCMS that brought us back on path. When we tried to do the same, we were rebuffed and rebuked. All we can do now is pray for unity, but until doctrines change to reflect the bible's teachings, that will not happen.

And with that, I'm backing out of this thread. I love my LCMS brothers and sisters and look forward to a blessed reunion in heaven with them.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

you may find three LCMS churches in an area who all practice something different. One of those churches probably offers open communion.

Not all in the LCMS (or in Lutheranism) would agree that closed communion is biblical or confessional - but that's a pretty "hot" topic in the LCMS. Personally, I've not known any Lutheran congregation (of any Lutheran group) that practice closed OR open communion but rather something somewhere in between - usually largely at the discretion of the pastor and/or elders. Another issue for another day and thread...

But to the point of this thread, I understand that WELS (a much smaller denomination) has a general working consensus on this and the congregations are pretty comfortable with the practice as it's typically and currently cranked out. This is also true for the much larger ELCA. On the other hand, the LCMS - in its some 6000 congregations - has not attained that on this specific issue of praxis. There is a bit of a range of practices. The THEOLOGY doesn't vary a bit, not one iota, but the practice of HOW closed or HOW open, exactly where that subjective "line" is drawn - is not as clear; not all those congregations have EXACTLY the same practice. It is a part of the whole "fellowship" issue that the LCMS struggles with - and has for a very long time. ALL denominations (especially large ones) have their issues, of course, it's not easy to "walk together" in absolutely perfect step in all issues - theological, moral, ecclesiastical, ministerial - when there are some 6000 congregations in 49 states, especially in an issue that obviously is subjective. I rejoice that we agree in matters of faith and morals, although perhaps not in all aspects of "fellowship" practices.

Once you start cherry picking which parts of the bible to follow, it becomes very easy to throw out other parts as well.

Again, not all would agree that absolute closed communion is biblical or confessional; another discussion for another day and thread (IF you REALLY want to go there, lol, I know to stay out of that one!).

The WELS went off on the wrong track quite some time ago and it was the LCMS that brought us back on path. When we tried to do the same, we were rebuffed and rebuked.

As I understand it, it was WELS that withdrew the fellowship and from membership in the Synodical Conference in 1961, not the other way around. Perhaps I'm wrong about that....

I love my LCMS brothers and sisters and look forward to a blessed reunion in heaven with them.

Of course, I have no idea what things were like in 1961. But my limited experience today is that relationships between LCMS and WELS Lutherans are very good. My own LCMS pastor had nothing but positive things to say about WELS and expressed his disappointment that WELS pastors won't join with the local LCMS pastors in their monthly gatherings and that the cooperation that existed at one time no longer does. In the various internet discussion forums that I've participated in over the years, I'm always found the WELS posters to be very kind and embracing and supportive - and often find myself agreeing with them.

My father has a good friend who is a Presbyterian pastor. I met with him a couple of times when I was in high school and studying Calvin and Calvinism. I was not a Lutheran then, but he knew Dad was teaching me Lutheran theology (Francis Pieper's Christian Dogmatics). He commented, "There is no denomination on the planet more in agreement than Lutherans - and everyone on the planet knows that, except the Lutherans." Now that I am one, his words often come back to me.


Thank you!!


Pax


- Josiah





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[seajoy]

Well, I'm going to just go ahead and say my thoughts on this issue. I'm going to ask a question that I'm sure has been asked before, but any WELS person I've ever asked it of has a blank stare on their face, and have never known how to answer. So here goes:

Why don't we put in the bulletin, or announce at the beginning of the service, that anyone who is of a different denomination or faith, please not pray with us today?
We do this for Communion (which I'm fine with, by the way).

Rad asked me, just before our service this past sunday, if it was ok for him to pray with us during the service. It made me have a rather sick feeling in my gut when he asked this. I told him to definately pray with us. WELS folks, would you say I should have told him "No"?

With all this said, I believe that no synod has it all correct....but I will add, that I think the WELS and ELS are as close to what Scripture teaches, as is possible. It's why I belong there.

Thanks for listening.