Are distric presidents basically another name for bishop? Also what would our president be known as, like the head bishop? Is our lcms church structure biblical? Does the bible point to a congregational structure or more of a hiearchy?
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Lcms bishops
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The LCMS follows a congregational rather than episcopal structure. I think that some of the churches with which the LCMS is in fellowship do the bishop thing.
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Melethiel said:
The truth is that the Church is a ministerium, not a magisterium. The polity of the Church is from the bottom up, not the top down. Pastors (shepherds), bishops (overseers), etc. are called through the congregation and not appointed from some hierarchy. It's that whole "the last shall be first" thing.
As far as the OP is concerned, the LCMS is not a "Church" but rather a Synod (which means "walking together") of congregations who (supposedly) are in full fellowship with each other and are in agreement with a common confession, and all of whom are of the one, holy, catholic, and apsotolic Church.
Since the LCMS is not a "Church", we don't use the term "bishop" for the DP's or "presiding bishop" or "pope" or whatever for the SP. The offices of district president and synodical president and vice presidents are basically political offices within the organization of the Synod, much like any other organization has officers.
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There are bishops in the bible. We hold the bible so highly and we base our structure off of politics and not the bible? I think I hit a weird nerve with the lcms. Does elca think we're crazy because I'm thinking we are a little crazy on this issue.
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SPALATIN
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NordicLutheran said:
Nordic,
The LCMS has stayed away from a Episcopal system mainly because of the man who took them from Saxon Germany to the US in 1835. That man was Martin Stephan. Stephan was a charismatic preacher in Saxon Germany and because of this was misunderstood by many of the Orthodox Lutheran leadership. Among those that followed Stephan were the Walther brothers Otto and C.F.W. On the voyage over, Stephan manipulated those who followed him to name him the Bishop and all who came over signed the charter.
They would soon find out how big a mistake that was. Stephan had left his wife and family in Germany and considered himself divorced. He began to have affairs with a few of the single women that came over with him. When this was revealed to the rest of the settlement it became clear that they could not allow him to remain in their midst. They put him and his lover (also his maid) on a boat and sent them across the river to Illinois.
Though Stephan tried to come back a few times they had decided to form a church system without a Bishop. Since that time the LCMS has maintained a Bishop-less leadership. Though in many respects it is as you say. The DP is in effect a Bishop and his duties are the same as a Bishop. He does however, have other administrative duties which are not the same as a Bishop. Also, I believe that a bishop does serve in a church whereas the DP at this time does not have Clerical duties.
BTW. God calls the Pastor through the Congregation. The Congregation does not call a Pastor of it's own accord otherwise they would have the power to "uncall" him and that according to Scripture is up to God.
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NordicLutheran said:
Well..., like I said in my last post, the polity of the Church is a ministerium (from the bottom up), not a majesterium (from the top down). This is the Biblical Church polity. The word "bishop" simply means "overseer."
While the district presidents do some clerical duties, such as ordinations, etc., the Synod nor the districts are churches and therefore the district presidents are not holding a clerical office but rather a "political" office or better yet, an organizational office. The pastors in the district do sometimes refer to their DP's as "bishop" but that is more in the line of their ecclestical overseer rather than a clerical position.
From what I understand, there are a few district presidents who are also pastors of congregations at the same time, but this is not the norm.
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I asked my pastor about this issue and he told me that the district president is basically a bishop but without the title. I asked him if he knew of any from past to the present that called themselves bishop. He recalled one I dont remember the last name but he was a district president who refered to himself as a bishop. Do you think the lcms will ever change the dp name to bishop? It makes more sence to have a biblical name for a "overseer" in the church then a political name. Also why do all of the lutheran churches both confessional and non confessional reject apostolic succession?
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C
Chemnitz
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The Bible recognizes no difference between an Elder (a Presbyter) and an Overseer (a Bishop).
I have heard the LCMS polity described as "Episcopopresbygational"
I have heard the LCMS polity described as "Episcopopresbygational"
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NordicLutheran said:
Because "bishop" is a clerical position and the DP is a organizational/"political" position.
Also, apostolic succession. as practiced in Roman Catholicism or Anglicanism, is not Biblical.
(Again, it's a "the last shall be first" thingy)
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C
Chemnitz
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LutherNut said:...not to be confused with our friends the Roman Methobapiticostapresbylutherans...
Ach! Du Lieber!
Those guys are heretics!
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NordicLutheran said:
*rams head repeatedly into brick wall*
...there, I feel better...
Go back and read posts 2, 4, 6, 7, 9, & 10. Apparently you haven't yet.
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Oh pardon me I didn't read the part where some are called bishops because of there eclesiastical duties and not clerical. Good enough for me.
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NordicLutheran said:
Roger Pittelko was President of the English District, and was given an honorary title of Bishop. But his official title is District President.
Looks like the latest DP from the ED is trying to automatically use the honorary title.
The assumption is that the DP serves in a Biblical role. However, that is under debate, and the LCMS has always been considered the DP/SP a human arrangement rather than a Biblical requisite.
The Swedish Lutheran Church and the Finnish Aposlotic Lutheran Church both accept apostolic succession.
In Christ's love,
filo
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Virgil the Roman
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do ya mean the Roman Catholic Church my friend or the ECLA? I'm a bit confused.LutherNut said:...not to be confused with our friends the Roman Methobapiticostapresbylutherans...
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SPALATIN
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Ravenonthecross said:do ya mean the Roman Catholic Church my friend or the ECLA? I'm a bit confused.
I think it is safe to say he is not referring directly to the RCC. I think you have it correct. ELCA/neo-Barthianorthodox.
God Bless
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