Just downloaded some Anglican Documents

[AlexB23]

Hello folks. As a Catholic, the Anglican church is fascinating, and I know very little about it, except that the Anglicans are the closest brethren to Catholics, and have beautiful church interiors. So, today, I am downloading some Anglican theology onto my computer for the artificial intelligence to learn. Do you guys have any more theologians or documents that you recommend? I might install a 3rd document into the AI, so it has enough data, but two should do the trick.

Here are the documents:

1. An Outline of Anglican Life: https://anglicanministries.org/wp-content/uploads/An-Outline-of-an-Anglican-Life.pdf
2. Book of Common Prayer (shared between Episcopal and Anglican, already downloaded in July): https://www.episcopalchurch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2021/02/book-of-common-prayer-2006.pdf

 

[AlexB23]

To what extent will your AI then advise you according to Anglican/Episcopalian teaching? And will it be modern Episcopalian woke religion or last century Episcopalianism. Does what you feed your AI influence the result you get? Maybe you should be very careful in what you feed it. Just sayin'. The monster you get is the monster you feed the most.

I will be careful. It will be the older stuff, or non-political stuff. Yes, AI can be influenced by what it is fed. For instance, the AI used to gravitate towards John Calvin. Since adding more documents, it does not have as much bias, as far as I can tell. Also, I will remain Catholic, but if anyone on Christian Forums here wants to compare the two denominations, or ask Anglican related questions, the AI should be a useful tool.

 

[PloverWing]

These two will not do the trick. The Anglican tradition is much more varied than what you've listed here.

The version of the Book of Common Prayer that you've linked to is a good document for the liturgy of the Episcopal Church in the US. I suggest that you also load in the Books of Common Prayer from an assortment of other countries -- England, Scotland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, some of the English-language BCPs from Africa, and some BCPs from South America and Asia if you can find them in English translation. There's much we have in common, but there are also places where we differ, and all of those voices should be heard if you want a broad understanding of Anglicanism. Include some older books, too, if you can get them -- Cranmer's original, for instance.

As for theology, I've just skimmed "An Outline of Anglican Life". It seems to be written from a Continuing Anglican point of view. (For example, not only does the author require clergy to be male, he doesn't even permit women to be lay readers or acolytes. In his family tree diagram on p.12, he shows Episcopalians as branching off from the Anglican Communion in the same way that Methodists and Congregationalists are Anglican offshoots. This is not how the Anglican Communion views the Episcopal Church in the US.) The Continuing Anglicans are one important voice in the Anglican tradition, but this document will mislead you (and your AI) if you use it to learn about the Episcopal Church.

I can think of books to suggest, but they're all print books. I suppose you need electronic versions, if you're going to feed them to your AI, so that really limits you. (I don't suppose you'd be willing to read a couple of print books instead of using the AI?)

Besides the prayer books, the best I can think of at the moment for an electronic resource is the website of the Episcopal Church: The Episcopal Church Some of the pages here might give you some of the information you need, in an electronic form. Note, again, that this will bias your AI toward the American church and will not represent all views worldwide.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I will be careful. It will be the older stuff, or non-political stuff. Yes, AI can be influenced by what it is fed. For instance, the AI used to gravitate towards John Calvin. Since adding more documents, it does not have as much bias, as far as I can tell. Also, I will remain Catholic, but if anyone on Christian Forums here wants to compare the two denominations, or ask Anglican related questions, the AI should be a useful tool.

I would suggest adding the 'Catechism of the Council of Trent' and the 'Baltimore Catechism'. I'm presuming you have already entered the CCC. I would also think you would want to enter the Ecumenical Councils. Maybe Ludwig Ott's book too.

 

[AlexB23]

These two will not do the trick. The Anglican tradition is much more varied than what you've listed here.

The version of the Book of Common Prayer that you've linked to is a good document for the liturgy of the Episcopal Church in the US. I suggest that you also load in the Books of Common Prayer from an assortment of other countries -- England, Scotland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, some of the English-language BCPs from Africa, and some BCPs from South America and Asia if you can find them in English translation. There's much we have in common, but there are also places where we differ, and all of those voices should be heard if you want a broad understanding of Anglicanism. Include some older books, too, if you can get them -- Cranmer's original, for instance.

As for theology, I've just skimmed "An Outline of Anglican Life". It seems to be written from a Continuing Anglican point of view. (For example, not only does the author require clergy to be male, he doesn't even permit women to be lay readers or acolytes. In his family tree diagram on p.12, he shows Episcopalians as branching off from the Anglican Communion in the same way that Methodists and Congregationalists are Anglican offshoots. This is not how the Anglican Communion views the Episcopal Church in the US.) The Continuing Anglicans are one important voice in the Anglican tradition, but this document will mislead you (and your AI) if you use it to learn about the Episcopal Church.

I can think of books to suggest, but they're all print books. I suppose you need electronic versions, if you're going to feed them to your AI, so that really limits you. (I don't suppose you'd be willing to read a couple of print books instead of using the AI?)

Besides the prayer books, the best I can think of at the moment for an electronic resource is the website of the Episcopal Church: The Episcopal Church Some of the pages here might give you some of the information you need, in an electronic form. Note, again, that this will bias your AI toward the American church and will not represent all views worldwide.

So, what I have fed to the machine is a little more conservative? Yeah, some British documents would help also. I do not want my AI to go full on woke though.

 

[PloverWing]

To what extent will your AI then advise you according to Anglican/Episcopalian teaching? And will it be modern Episcopalian woke religion or last century Episcopalianism. Does what you feed your AI influence the result you get? Maybe you should be very careful in what you feed it. Just sayin'. The monster you get is the monster you feed the most.

I wouldn't choose this wording , but the overall point is a good one. If you're trying to learn about the Episcopal Church in the US, "modern Episcopalian woke religion" is the current mainstream view in our church.

 

[AlexB23]

I would suggest adding the 'Catechism of the Council of Trent' and the 'Baltimore Catechism'. I'm presuming you have already entered the CCC. I would also think you would want to enter the Ecumenical Councils. Maybe Ludwig Ott's book too.

The texts must be formatted in a font that is machine readable, not a scan of pages, or else, typos may occur.

 

[chevyontheriver]

The texts must be formatted in a font that is machine readable, not a scan of pages, or else, typos may occur.

How does AI interpret typos? That could be fun!

 

[AlexB23]

How does AI interpret typos? That could be fun!

I do not want to risk it, though, I could always delete the document. It takes a long time on order of minutes to hours for the AI to learn documents, so I do not want to have my computer be occupied with processing documents only to spit out garbage. In other words, GIGO (garbage in, garbage out).

 

[PloverWing]

So, what I have fed to the machine is a little more conservative? Yeah, some British documents would help also. I do not want my AI to go full on woke though.

What is the purpose of the AI you're trying to train? Are you trying to train it to give answers that an American Episcopalian would give, or to list the variety of answers that Anglicans worldwide would give, or to give answers that a Christian with no denominational bias (if that's possible) would give, or something else?

It's hard to describe Continuing Anglicans in conservative-vs-liberal terms. Both the Continuing Anglicans and the Episcopal Church view themselves as truly continuing the Anglican tradition. Let's say it this way: the document represents a minority group that broke away from the Anglican Communion because they disagreed with the Episcopal Church on some issues that were important to them. The Continuing Anglican voice is an important one if you're trying to learn about worldwide Anglicanism, but it will mislead you if you're trying to teach your AI (or yourself) the majority view in the Episcopal Church.

Again, what is the purpose of the AI you're training? What viewpoint do you want it to summarize in its conversations when you're done?

 

[AlexB23]

What is the purpose of the AI you're trying to train? Are you trying to train it to give answers that an American Episcopalian would give, or to list the variety of answers that Anglicans worldwide would give, or to give answers that a Christian with no denominational bias (if that's possible) would give, or something else?

It's hard to describe Continuing Anglicans in conservative-vs-liberal terms. Both the Continuing Anglicans and the Episcopal Church view themselves as truly continuing the Anglican tradition. Let's say it this way: the document represents a minority group that broke away from the Anglican Communion because they disagreed with the Episcopal Church on some issues that were important to them. The Continuing Anglican voice is an important one if you're trying to learn about worldwide Anglicanism, but it will mislead you if you're trying to teach your AI (or yourself) the majority view in the Episcopal Church.

Again, what is the purpose of the AI you're training? What viewpoint do you want it to summarize in its conversations when you're done?

The purpose of the AI is to compare the denominations, cos a lot of people argue about denominations and stuff, when we are all one in Christ. I could use the two most common Anglican groups (England and US), and have it compare the two, or give an average viewpoint for an Anglican. The machine could also find theological points that are common across all denominations, so if two people are debating on the Christian Forums, I could use the AI to mediate their arguments, or show that there is a lot more commonalities between denominations compared to differences.

 

[PloverWing]

The purpose of the AI is to compare the denominations, cos a lot of people argue about denominations and stuff, when we are all one in Christ. I could use the two most common Anglican groups (England and US), and have it compare the two, or give an average viewpoint for an Anglican. The machine could also find theological points that are common across all denominations, so if two people are debating on the Christian Forums, I could use the AI to mediate their arguments, or show that there is a lot more commonalities between denominations compared to differences.

I think, then, that the usefulness of your AI system will vary based on the topic being discussed. There's a lot of agreement among Anglicans on liturgical, sacramental worship; on the organization of the clergy into bishops, priests, and deacons; and of course on the central items described in the Nicene Creed and similar ecumenical statements. The system will likely give reliable answers on topics like these.

The Anglican Communion is divided at the moment on a cluster of issues related to gender and sexuality, as you probably know. Some Anglican churches fully include women in the ordained and lay ministries of the church, and others restrict these ministries to men only. I think there is some disagreement over the use of higher criticism in the study of the Bible, as well. A well-trained AI system will reflect these differences of opinion.

(An AI system that I'm willing to trust will also have to explain its reasoning, cite its sources, and explain why it chose those sources; but that's asking a lot, given the current state of the art.)

A note on "the two most common Anglican groups": While the Church of England and the Episcopal Church in the US both have a special place in my heart, I feel obliged to point out that the second smallest Anglican national church (after England) is the Church of Nigeria, and their voice should be included if you're looking for a worldwide perspective. Perhaps include documents from the Episcopal Church (US), the Church of England, and the Church of Nigeria, at the least, in your training set.

***

Once you've trained your system, would you be willing for us here in STR to provide a test suite, to see if the AI is representing an authentically Anglican voice?

 

[AlexB23]

I think, then, that the usefulness of your AI system will vary based on the topic being discussed. There's a lot of agreement among Anglicans on liturgical, sacramental worship; on the organization of the clergy into bishops, priests, and deacons; and of course on the central items described in the Nicene Creed and similar ecumenical statements. The system will likely give reliable answers on topics like these.

The Anglican Communion is divided at the moment on a cluster of issues related to gender and sexuality, as you probably know. Some Anglican churches fully include women in the ordained and lay ministries of the church, and others restrict these ministries to men only. I think there is some disagreement over the use of higher criticism in the study of the Bible, as well. A well-trained AI system will reflect these differences of opinion.

(An AI system that I'm willing to trust will also have to explain its reasoning, cite its sources, and explain why it chose those sources; but that's asking a lot, given the current state of the art.)

A note on "the two most common Anglican groups": While the Church of England and the Episcopal Church in the US both have a special place in my heart, I feel obliged to point out that the second smallest Anglican national church (after England) is the Church of Nigeria, and their voice should be included if you're looking for a worldwide perspective. Perhaps include documents from the Episcopal Church (US), the Church of England, and the Church of Nigeria, at the least, in your training set.

***

Once you've trained your system, would you be willing for us here in STR to provide a test suite, to see if the AI is representing an authentically Anglican voice?

I will try to get the Church of Nigeria in there and Episcopal church in there. The AI uses RAG (retrieval augmented generation), so it can use and cite PDFs that are downloaded to my laptop as sources.

It seems that a lot of the Nigerian church PDFs are triggering my browser's firewall. Do you have any recommendations for Nigerian documents? And yes, I am willing for you guys to provide a test suite of questions to test the machine. In fact, that would be beneficial.

Found one so far that works:

Church of Nigeria BCP.

Find attached is the 2007 Church of Nigeria- Book of Common Prayer. Click on the High light to download BCP

emmanuelrailway.wordpress.com

 

[chevyontheriver]

I will try to get the Church of Nigeria in there and Episcopal church in there. The AI uses RAG (retrieval augmented generation), so it can use and cite PDFs that are downloaded to my laptop as sources.

It seems that a lot of the Nigerian church PDFs are triggering my browser's firewall. Do you have any recommendations for Nigerian documents?

Found one so far that works:

Church of Nigeria BCP.

Find attached is the 2007 Church of Nigeria- Book of Common Prayer. Click on the High light to download BCP

emmanuelrailway.wordpress.com

You could also look at Ugandan or other African sources.

 

[AlexB23]

You could also look at Ugandan or other African sources.

Yep.

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

Hello folks. As a Catholic, the Anglican church is fascinating, and I know very little about it, except that the Anglicans are the closest brethren to Catholics, and have beautiful church interiors. So, today, I am downloading some Anglican theology onto my computer for the artificial intelligence to learn. Do you guys have any more theologians or documents that you recommend? I might install a 3rd document into the AI, so it has enough data, but two should do the trick.

Here are the documents:

1. An Outline of Anglican Life: https://anglicanministries.org/wp-content/uploads/An-Outline-of-an-Anglican-Life.pdf
2. Book of Common Prayer (shared between Episcopal and Anglican, already downloaded in July): https://www.episcopalchurch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2021/02/book-of-common-prayer-2006.pdf

I like your approach: what AI system are you using on your machine to read/process the docs?

The Anglican church has a peculiar start/origin in the UK (because the Pope didn't allow Henry XVIII to annul his marriage to his 1st wife - so he just split-off the UK church and made himself head) and the UK (secular) King is still officially the 'Supreme Governor of the Church of England'.

The Reformation was unfolding in Europe at the same time-frame; and still in the Anglican Church / Church of England you will find high-church (similar to Roman Catholic) and low-church (fairly similar to a Protestant Church) flavours; with some Anglican churches even feeling orthodox / evangelical. The well-known Alpha course - Wikipedia used world-wide was developed by a London Anglican Parish.

 

[Paidiske]

In terms of theologians, there are two possible approaches. One would be to look for the voices which have shaped Anglicanism in enduring ways over the centuries; thinkers like Richard Hooker, John Jewel, and Lancelot Andrewes come to mind immediately, though it would take a bit of thought to put together a comprehensive list. Or you could look for the outstanding Anglican thinkers of our generation, in which case Rowan Williams comes to mind first, although of course there are others.

In terms of documents, the resolutions of Lambeth conferences, and any documents put out by the Anglican Consultative Council (like the Five Marks of Mission) would be helpful. I also wonder whether it would be helpful to include some basic canon law, but I must admit I am no legal expert, and I am not sure where I would start with that, given the diversity of Anglican canon law around the world. Perhaps some of the constitutional documents for various Anglican bodies?

 

[AlexB23]

I like your approach: what AI system are you using on your machine to read/process the docs?

The Anglican church has a peculiar start/origin in the UK (because the Pope didn't allow Henry XVIII to annul his marriage to his 1st wife - so he just split-off the UK church and made himself head) and the UK (secular) King is still officially the 'Supreme Governor of the Church of England'.

The Reformation was unfolding in Europe at the same time-frame; and still in the Anglican Church / Church of England you will find high-church (similar to Roman Catholic) and low-church (fairly similar to a Protestant Church) flavours; with some Anglican churches even feeling orthodox / evangelical. The well-known Alpha course - Wikipedia used world-wide was developed by a London Anglican Parish.

The artificial intelligence front-end software (GPT4All) I use is 100% free, offline, and private, and made by Nomic, and runs Mistral 7B (AI model with 7 billion parameters). It is strange how the UK would allow kings to govern a church. In the US, churches and governments are supposedly separate, and are required to. What is your favorite flavor of Anglican church? The high-church, or low-church? I have never heard of the Alpha Course, but it seems similar to youth group programs at churches.

Screen capture of AI home screen. I use this AI to write parts of my devotionals.

 

[AlexB23]

In terms of theologians, there are two possible approaches. One would be to look for the voices which have shaped Anglicanism in enduring ways over the centuries; thinkers like Richard Hooker, John Jewel, and Lancelot Andrewes come to mind immediately, though it would take a bit of thought to put together a comprehensive list. Or you could look for the outstanding Anglican thinkers of our generation, in which case Rowan Williams comes to mind first, although of course there are others.

In terms of documents, the resolutions of Lambeth conferences, and any documents put out by the Anglican Consultative Council (like the Five Marks of Mission) would be helpful. I also wonder whether it would be helpful to include some basic canon law, but I must admit I am no legal expert, and I am not sure where I would start with that, given the diversity of Anglican canon law around the world. Perhaps some of the constitutional documents for various Anglican bodies?

I just installed Richard Hooker. Tomorrow, if I have time, I might try to find the other theologians on your list, though I feel that Richard Hooker and the Lambeth conferences might be enough, cos I do not want to load the machine too much with Anglican documents and then bias the answers if I use the AI for answering general Christian questions. In other words, the AI should be well rounded for all denominations.

Canon law is already installed, and learned by the AI. This machine is gonna have a field day when you guys throw complex theology questions at it.

 

[Paidiske]

Canon law is already installed, and learned by the AI.

Anglican canon law? Because that's something that differs significantly between denominations.