Job; Justification for our suffering, or a tale of victory?

[probinson]

I ran across this program called "Healing for Windows" by Steve Young. I take no credit for the content of this article.

In the program, there is what I would consider an excellent article on Job. The article is long, but I will post it below. It will need to be split into 2 posts.



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Job was a godly man, yet God let him get sick

I am being charitable in my statement of this objection, and at least giving the objector credit for realizing that it was not God who made Job sick. Some people think this, but only because they have not read the explicit statement that the devil, not God, made Job sick (Job 2:4-7). God was the one who healed Job (Job 42:10), thus undoing the devil's work in Job's life.

From this, we should learn that it is the devil who makes people sick and God who heals them, not the other way around.

You don't need to avoid the book of Job for fear that hearing this part of the Word of God will take away your faith. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God, and the Word produces faith, including the book of Job! You don't have to worry that reading Job will get you into unbelief.

Let's examine the typical arguments that say you could be another Job:

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JOB: YOUR EXAMPLE OF PATIENT SUFFERING by Prof. Kranken Heitlieber

Job was a perfect and upright man who feared God and eschewed evil (Job 1:1). God 's plan was to have Job be sick to prove his character and teach him lessons. So perfect Job got sick as a dog. You name it, he had it. Job humbly and lovingly resigned himself to the will of God, saying, "Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked I shall return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD." In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly (Job 1:21-22). After all, the Word of God tells us that Job's siblings and acquaintances "comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him" (Job 42:11), and we know that Job spoke of the Lord the thing that was right (Job 42:8).

Rather than pestering God for healing as some so-called faith Christians do today, Job humbly accepted that the LORD had taken everything away from him, despite his perfect walk with him. If Job's statement were wrong, he would have been sinning, so Job must have been right. Although our flesh rebels at the thought, it was the perfect will of God for his life that his animals and servants should be killed and kidnapped, all of his children killed, and his body tortured with a lingering, wasting illness. The will of God can be mysterious to us at times, but he has a purpose for bad things, and he works all these things to our good (Rom 8:28). We must accept that God brings calamity into our lives for a higher purpose.

Job said, "What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips" (Job 2:10). Job understood the precious lesson that God gives us both good things and bad things. You, like Job, must learn to contentedly receive evil from the hand of God. Since Job was not sinning when he said this, we know that this is a correct statement that bears the same force as any other doctrinal verse in the Bible. We can receive evil from God. Job did not try to undo the will of God in his life, but suffered patiently, realizing the great truth we see elsewhere that there is "a time to weep... a time to mourn...a time to lose" (Eccl. 3:4, 6).

Job proved that he was not just serving God for the money, as some shallow Christians do today. Satan thought he was, but Job proved otherwise with his patient endurance. He was willing to serve God no matter what God brought on him. Here we find some of the most touching, beautiful words in the entire Bible, and my personal favorite verse, "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him" (Job 13:15).

So next time you're sick, remember that you could be another Job. Endure your trial with patient, satisfied resignation to the perfect will of God, as Job did, rather than presumptuously bossing him around, telling him to heal you. Job resisted that temptation, and so should you. Receive evil from God cheerfully when the Lord who giveth and taketh away taketh away from you.

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This really does a job on Job!


Job was wrong

We know that it was Satan, not God, who was responsible for all of Job's calamities. "So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown" (Job 2:7). Job was obviously wrong about it because he said that we receive evil from the Lord, not from Satan. So how could he not be sinning or making foolish charges against God? Because he didn't know any better! He had no way to know that the devil had made him sick. People back then were unaware of the existence of a personal adversary, and they tended to attribute everything to God. Job had no way to know God's true character. Sin is not imputed where there is no law (Romans 5:13), so God wasn't upset. Job could not have known what was really going on, so God did not consider Job's charges foolish.

It is a fact that Job said the words that he did about the Lord hathing taken away and his hathing received evil from God. But these words were not the truth. Right before he said that the Lord taketh away, he said that he would return naked to his mother's womb. Job couldn't possibly return naked to his mother's womb! It is true that Job said that, but that doesn't make it true.

Now what do we say about Job 42:11, where "the LORD" brought evil on Job, when earlier it was clearly stated to be the work of the devil? We can learn a valuable lesson here in interpreting all the Old Testament passages about "the LORD" bringing evil on people. We can see that the Lord was permitting the devil to do certain things, but not doing them himself, and we should keep this in mind where we see this expression used elsewhere. (This topic is covered under another objection reply.)

Thus far, Job had not made any railing, unfair accusations against God. Job was wrong, but he was not accusing God of wrongdoing. However, as you continue in the book of Job, Job makes more and more foolish and untrue accusations against God. For these, God rebuked him (Job 38:1-41:34), and Job had to repent (Job 42:1-6). Basically, Job ranted against God for all the things that God supposedly did to him, and finally God got tired of the slander and told Job to shut up! God said, and Job had to admit, that Job had "darkened counsel without knowledge" (Job 38:2, 42:3). Job said that he had "uttered that I understood not, things too wonderful for me, that I knew not...Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes" (Job 42:3, 6). Once Job repented of his false accusations against God, God healed him!

Now the funny part (not in the humorous sense, though) is that JOB admitted that the things he said were wrong, GOD said that the things Job said were wrong, but many CHRISTIANS want you to believe that these statements of Job are RIGHT: "The LORD giveth, and the LORD taketh away...Shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?...For he breaketh me in a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause...the Almighty (hath) vexed my soul."

The objectors usually stress the statements at the beginning of Job that say that he was perfect and upright, that he feared God and eschewed evil. However, Job did have to repent at the end of the book for speaking things about God that were not right. The fact that Job lived a morally pure life does not mean that his theology was correct. If Job were right about everything, he would not have had to repent of his ignorant babblings.

By the way, Job 1 should prove to you that damages from lightning and windstorms are not "acts of God," no matter what your insurance company says.


Satan's diminishing rights

Of course, we must now meet the next objection, which is, "Yeah, but God allowed it! Maybe he didn't do it, but he explicitly allowed Satan to make Job sick."

Obviously he did. Based on Job 1:10, it appears that at some point God had put a hedge around Job, and it is implied that the devil could not get at him because of it. Why did God choose to remove the hedge of protection? Is this not tantamount to committing these acts himself, leading us back to Prof. Heitlieb's argument that God did them? After all, God seemed to grant Satan permission to do evil to Job.

I should point out that Satan is hardly an authoritative source of any kind of information. The fact that he said there was a hedge still up does not prove that there was. God, in fact, said that all Job had was in Satan's hand. This is usually interpreted to say that God handed Job over to Satan, but it could just as well mean that Job had already put himself in Satan's hands and torn down his own hedge through fear, and Satan didn't realize that yet, since his knowledge is limited. We'll deal with the fear issue in the next section.

Job was not under a covenant with God that excluded Satan from afflicting him. The promises of protection had not yet been given to man. Thus, Satan had a legal right to ask to afflict Job. When you think about it, Satan still has the legal right to try to afflict you. Unlike Job, however, you have a covenant you can stand on to make Satan flee. Job did not have any promise he could claim to keep Satan away. He did not have a healing covenant with God like you do.

Lest you think this is a thin argument, consider that God allowed the Egyptians to afflict Israel with cruel servitude for many generations. The Law of Moses (in Deuteronomy 28) specifically says that you do not have to be slaves of another nation if you serve the Lord. However, that law had not yet been given, so the Israelites in Egypt could not claim any promise to be delivered right away. The only promise that was theirs to claim was that at some point God would visit them and bring them back to their own land.

Also consider that you could not be born again under the Old Covenant. No matter how much faith you had, this promise simply wasn't available to you then. You could not live in New Covenant rights and privileges under the Old Covenant. Likewise, you could not walk in the blessings of the Law of Moses under the Old Covenant before the Law of Moses was given. Job had neither the New Covenant nor the Law of Moses to stand on.

Satan was "allowed" to afflict Israel in Egypt. He had a right to do it then. Once God gave his Law through Moses, Satan's rights were restricted. He could only bring Israel into bondage if Israel forsook the Lord. If Israel walked with God, God's promise was that they could not be brought into subjection like that again.

Over time, as God gave additional promises, Satan's rights diminished. Under the New Covenant, he has no legal right to dominate you in any area.

 

[probinson]

Job's fear

A spiritual principle here carries over into the New Testament. Job said, "For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me" (Job 3:25).

We can see that Job walked in constant fear by his constant "just-in-case-they-sinned" offerings for his children mentioned in Job 1:5. This was not normal behavior for any other person in the Old Testament. Job was blessed and rich, but he had a fear problem. In fact, he didn't just say that the thing he feared had come upon him. He said the that thing he greatly feared had come upon him. Therefore, it is plain from this verse that Job was in great fear. The fact is, just as faith authorizes God to move, fear (which is really faith running in reverse gear) authorizes the devil to move. Even today, if you walk in fear, the Lord will allow the devil to do certain things to you. The devil has a legal right to do things when you authorize it with your faith in him (fear). Job did not understand this principle, and like many today who are equally ignorant of such matters, he blamed God for everything that happened.

How could you describe Job's attitude other than extreme fear? He offered his sacrifices in case his relatives had done anything wrong, without even knowing for sure that they were doing anything wrong! In modern parlance, Job was a worrywart.

I believe that this is another reason why God had to allow Satan to do certain things to Job. There is a difference between God allowing something and God instigating something.

I would ask you to consider this: Even in the New Testament, fear can take you out of the blessings of God. We can see this in the incident where Peter walked on water until he allowed himself to get into fear. Did God "allow" Peter to sink? Up to a point he did, and then Jesus bailed him out of trouble. Was it God's will for Peter to falter? No. Peter's fear lost the blessing of being able to walk on water.

Do you see the parallel? If Peter could be blessed by God supernaturally and lose it through fear, why is it unreasonable to conclude that Job could lose his God-given blessings through fear? The storm was no doubt sent by Satan to wipe them all out. Peter was unaffected by it until he went from faith into fear.

Critics say that the fear factor in Job's case is overrated. Perhaps it is. Job's case really has more to do with the fact that Job did not have a healing covenant than the fact that he was afraid. Still, God tells us that Job was afraid, and fear does gives Satan certain latitude.


Job is commended for his patience, not for his faith

Job is not listed in Hebrews 11 with those of great faith. Job's patience is no laughing matter; he did not give up when he had lost everything, his body was in tatters, his wife told him to curse God and die, and his wonderful friends accused him of all kinds of wrong things he had never done. His patience truly was extraordinary. Let's give the guy a break; he didn't have a basis for faith based on the Law of Moses, let alone the New Covenant. He may not have known what was going on, but he still honored God most of the time.

We should not belittle the patience of those who are unenlightened concerning their redemptive right to be healed. I'm sure that many good people are terribly sick, yet exhibit more patience than most Christians who know that healing was in Christ's atonement. Let Job be a lesson that God will honor the patience of the unenlightened. Yes, God would get much more glory if they got healed and rose from their sickbeds. However, we should admit that God does get some degree of glory from sick saints who manifest the fruit of the Spirit. Of course, the fruit of the Spirit glorifies God, not the sickness! But it sure beats having them fuss and complain all day, as so many sick people do. It isn't God's best, but it isn't the devil's worst, either. Even if the devil seems to win by robbing them of their lives, they get completely healed when the die and go to heaven anyway! That beats being in perfect health and spending eternity in the lake of fire, doesn't it?

Job's sickness was temporary, and God healed him

It is not stated exactly how long Job was sick, but it appears to have been less than a year. Job talked of possessing months of vanity, not years (Job 7:3). It may seem like forever as you trudge through the chapters of ignorant poetic ramblings from Job's comforters. (But aren't these Bible verses, too? Yes, it is a fact that the statements were made, but God himself said that Job's so-called comforters had committed folly, and not spoken of him that which is right (Job 42:8), so while those words were said, they are not necessarily reliable sources of doctrine.)

It appears that Job was sick for less than 1% of this life (discussed below) and we know that God healed Job. So you have no excuse for saying that someone who died of cancer was another Job. The real Job was healed and was not sick for years on end. If you stay sick or die, you are not another Job.

Why did God say that Job said what was right?

God said that Job said what was right in Job 42:8. Why did God rebuke him and why did Job repent if that was so? The point is that Job was right in comparison to his foolish friends, not that everything he said was true. God said that Job had darkened counsel by words without knowledge (Job 38:2), so he was not agreeing with everything Job said. But Job did not engage in personal slander of his friends the way his friends slandered him. Job's speaking was right and theirs was wrong in that sense. Job's comforters were much farther off the mark than Job was.

Also, read the entire book of Job and you will find that Job never asked God to heal him! He thought that God was responsible for his illness. He moaned a lot about it, but he never actually prayed for his healing. While that may be excusable for someone in Job's time, it would not be so today.

Here we have the earliest statement of a Bible principle: Satan sickens. God heals.


Why you cannot be "Job II" under the New Covenant

Job did not have the New Covenant, which was the first and only covenant to give its adherents direct power over the devil himself. The giants of faith in the Old Testament could not command the devil to stop doing anything. Job could not have spoken to Satan himself. But you can!

Since we know that Satan is the author of sickness, and we know that we have authority over him, we can command him to take his hands off our bodies. Job couldn't do that, so he wasn't expected to do it. But as a New Testament believer, you do not have to sit there and let the devil beat you up! The devil must bow his knee when you command him to leave in the name of Jesus.

Jesus gave his followers power over all devils and all sicknesses. Job did not have this power.

Job did not know the Mediator ("daysman"). We know that there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus (1 Tim 2:5). Job seemed to know that if he had had one, he would not have been sick so long:


Job 16:21:

O that one might plead for a man with God, as a man pleadeth for his neighbour!


Job 9:32-35:

For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.
Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.
Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me:
Then would I speak, and not fear him; but it is not so with me.


Job 19:25:

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth.

Although we would want to be careful about using any of Elihu's arguments as doctrinal proof texts, some of his words indicated that he understood the concept that atonement could remove sickness. Amazing insight for someone of the day! Read Job 33:19-25.

Under the New Covenant, we have the ransom Elihu talked about in Jesus Christ! Thus, we should expect to be delivered from going down to the pit, for we have found a ransom. Our flesh should be fresher than a child's. We should return to the days of our youth. In other words, we should be healed!


How do you read Job?

If you get the idea from Job that God is a meanie who will tear apart your life to test you, you are reading Job incorrectly. Thus saith the Lord. That's not just my opinion -- it's God's opinion. Here is what the Lord thus saiths in James 5:11: "Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy." You are supposed to see God's pity and tender mercy when you read Job. Otherwise, you have not read it the way the Holy Spirit wants you to read it! The context here is that Job (along with the prophets that James has just mentioned) was an example of patience in suffering affliction. And he was an example of patience. And God, in his pity and mercy, forgave Job for the bitter statements he made about him while he was in pain.

I will throw in my personal testimony that I was healed of lifelong allergy problems after reading the book of Job! Once I saw who was doing what, I realized that God would undo the devil's works in my body, as he did for Job. I also realized when Job spoke of a redeemer that I knew my redeemer! Job believed that if he could just meet his redeemer, he would be free from his illness. I had met my redeemer, and realized that I should therefore be free from my illness. I know the very Redeemer of whom Job had only a fleeting glimpse.

I'm not suggesting that you sit and read the entire book of Job to a terminally ill person, but the fact is that faith comes by hearing all the Word of God! If you think that reading Job takes away your faith, you are reading Job incorrectly. Remember that Job's trial was a matter of months, not years.

The time to weep

There is a time to weep, mourn and lose. Everyone you know will die unless Jesus returns soon, and you will no doubt weep and mourn when you lose friends and relatives. But you do not have to be robbed by the devil. You do not have to lose a single thing that God provided for you in Christ. It is NEVER the time to lose in the sense of not having the victory, because God always gives you the victory and you can reign in life. (See You win for a lot more proof of that.)


A good use for the book of Job

Knowing that Satan afflicted Job, you can list Job's ailments and know that they are the works of the devil, over which New Testament believers have authority. Satan does not have the right to afflict you with any of these things: Sore boils from head to toe (2:7), tossings to and fro at night (7:4), broken skin (7:5, 30:18), wearisome nights (7:3), nightmares (7:14), breaking in general (9:17), multiplied wounds (9:17), difficulty breathing (9:18), emaciation (10:10-11, 16:8, 19:20), biting yourself (13:14), weariness (16:7), unnatural wrinkles (16:8), dim eyesight from sorrow (17:7), bad breath from your illness (17:1, 19:17), skin worms (19:26), shaking (21:6), faintheartedness (23:16), pain in bones at night (30:17), bowels boiling [probably inflammation or diarrhea] (30:27), blackened skin (30:30), and fever (30:30). If you experience these things, you know their source, and you can take authority over him!

Use Job as an encouragement rather than an objection!

Why is it that the people who make a big deal about the fact that Job got sick do not make a bigger deal out of the fact that God healed Job completely, and that there is no record of him ever getting sick again for the rest of his life (Job 42:10-17)? Anyone who thinks he is another Job should prepare to get completely healed and blessed with twice what he had before (Job 42:10)! Also, prepare to live another 140 years after you get healed, as Job did (Job 42:16-17). If you do not get healed and get twice what you lost, you are not another Job. If you stay sick more than a year, you are not another Job. If you experience this kind of trial for more than 1% of your life, you are not another Job. The real Job got healed. Expecting to have to patiently endure sickness forever is contrary to the book of Job! God healed Job!

 

[Strong in Him]

Forgive me for attempting to reply to an article when I have not read all of it My first thought is; yes, agreed, Satan did cause Job's problems, Job 2:4-7, as he so rightly says. But did you notice God's words in v 6? "Very well" to me implies agreement. Satan said "of course Job worships you, he has never had any reason not to. Let me cause him to suffer and you'll see a difference" - and God basically says "ok then." To say that the devil went ahead and inflicted Job without God's say so, is to state that he has authority and power over God; and to say that he sneaked Job's suffering in when God wasn't looking, is to say that God is not in control and doesn't know everything that's going on.

This is the thing that I always come back to; did God know that Satan wanted to afflict Job or not? And if he knew but it absolutely wasn't his will that it should happen, then a) why does Scripture says he agreed and b) why didn't he stop it?

He can allow evil to flourish for a short time for the greater good - that is, to defeat the devil. After all, he allowed the cross, and he is allowing this world to continue until it is time for Jesus to come again. As Jesus said in his parable, he does not pull up the tares yet in case he damages the wheat. He allows both to grow until the harvest. I think it was the same with Job.

 

[BarbB]

Reminds me of Yeshua's words to Peter - "Satan has asked permission to sift you as wheat". Obviously permission was granted and Peter performed humanly!

Job is one book that still confuses me. Is Job right and righteous or just puffed up. Are his friends wrong and adding to his misery? Maybe in this case, but surely not in others or they wouldn't have been his friends. How about the young man who speaks before the L-rd does? He makes the most sense, but G-d doesn't affirm his speech - just goes on to reprimand everyone. :shakes head:

Give me any other book of the Bible, please!

Thanks for the essay, Pete!

 

[Lpe04]

Good Word there Strong in Him

Yes Job is a very confusing book and I think there are more sides to it than we even can begin to see or understand without the wisdom and understanding from God. I used to think that Job had a pride problem and this was just God's way of humbling him by using satan against him (like when Paul said that it was given to him a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of satan that he would not boast, and he sought the Lord three times but the Lord wouldn't deliver him, this messenger of satan was obviously from God because it was used to humble him and satan wouldn't want Paul to be more humble, but here you can see where God was using satan to carry out his will, kind of like a Joseph incident where God brings good out of an evil situation).

God Bless

 

[Lpe04]

It's also interesting to note that Paul also suffered physical illness at least once.

Gal. 4:14
"Even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn."

and also Timothy had an illness with his stomach.

1 Tim. 5:23
"Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses."

Obviously healing was available and here is Paul performing great healings and signs and wonders yet Timothy was still ill at times.

There is also another man Paul mentions that was spared from death

Phil. 2:26-27
"For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick.
27For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow."

so it sounds to me like this man was with Paul but was not being healed, unto the point where he almost died and then the Lord stepped in and saved him from death.

Also, I think I remember Smith Wigglesworth mentioning an illness he had with his appendix or something like that for his life that even though he was healing thousands. I believe he accredited it to the Lord keeping him humble but I could be misquoting.

God Bless

 

[9-iron]

Job was protected by God from the wickedness of the earth. It says God has a hedge around Job. Did everyone in the NT have a hedge? Does everyone under Grace have a hedge? Why was Job special that he got a hedge?

 

[LittleRocketBoy]

Question is... do you think God will ignore the sacrifice of Jesus who has purchased you with His own blood... and "allow" satan to afflict you?
How does your view of Job affect your personal faith? Does it destroy your confidence in God? Do you sit around and worry that you are next? Does God in fact consider the work of Jesus as a discountable issue with regards to your complete salvation? Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. Will God now overrule what Jesus did and reinstate the works of the devil in your life?
If Job causes fear and doubt in your walk with God... then you are using it incorrectly and the devil has you.

 

[probinson]

Forgive me for attempting to reply to an article when I have not read all of it My first thought is; yes, agreed, Satan did cause Job's problems, Job 2:4-7, as he so rightly says. But did you notice God's words in v 6? "Very well" to me implies agreement. Satan said "of course Job worships you, he has never had any reason not to. Let me cause him to suffer and you'll see a difference" - and God basically says "ok then."

The problem with this explanation is God never said "Very well" to any request of the devil. Some translations of the Bible wrongly translate "Behold" that way. He said "Behold", or "Lo", or look:

Job 2:6
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

As the article above helpfully points out, Satan is not all-knowing like God. To paraphrase, God was like, "Hedge? What hedge? Look! There's no hedge". It's as if you say to me, "I could break into your house if the door wasn't locked", and I reply, "Look! The door's not locked!". Did I just give you permission to rob me? To say that God gave permission to Satan is to read into scripture what is not there.

To say that the devil went ahead and inflicted Job without God's say so, is to state that he has authority and power over God; and to say that he sneaked Job's suffering in when God wasn't looking, is to say that God is not in control and doesn't know everything that's going on.

I've said this before, but I'll say it again. WE, whether it be by our sin, fear, disobedience, distrust in God, etc. open the door for attack. Since God is a just God, Satan has the right to attack us only when WE allow it. Now, of course no one is running around saying, "Hey Satan! Come attack me!", but we do things that open us up for attack.

Job was in fear, so much so that He was making sacrifices for his children JUST IN CASE they might sin. Job goes on to say later that the very thing he FEARED had come upon him. This is why the hedge was down. Job opened a hole in the hedge with his fear.

This is the thing that I always come back to; did God know that Satan wanted to afflict Job or not? And if he knew but it absolutely wasn't his will that it should happen, then a) why does Scripture says he agreed and b) why didn't he stop it?

Scripture does not say that God "agreed" to anything. This is a wrong conclusion that people have drawn from something that is not in the scripture.

Second, HE DID stop it! After Job repented. Which shows us that Job had done something that needed repenting of. Not only did God "stop it", he restored to Job twice what he had before!

 

[PastorMike]

It's also interesting to note that Paul also suffered physical illness at least once.

Gal. 4:14
"Even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn."

This verse doesn't say he had an illness... the word you have for illness is peirasmos and The New Testament Greek Lexicon translates it as
1. an experiment, attempt, trial, proving
1. trial, proving: the trial made of you by my bodily condition, since condition served as to test the love of the Galatians toward Paul (Gal. 4:
2.
1. the trial of man's fidelity, integrity, virtue, constancy
1. an enticement to sin, temptation, whether arising from the desires or from the outward circumstances
2. an internal temptation to sin 1b
2. of the temptation by which the devil sought to divert Jesus the Messiah from his divine errand
1. of the condition of things, or a mental state, by which we are enticed to sin, or to a lapse from the faith and holiness
2. adversity, affliction, trouble: sent by God and serving to test or prove one's character, faith, holiness
3. temptation (i.e. trial) of God by men
1. rebellion against God, by which his power and justice are, as it were, put to the proof and challenged to show themselves ...

God bless, Mike.

 

[PastorMike]

Excellent word PRobinson...

I also believe that Job himself broke down the hedge and allowed Satan to afflict him... the nature of the hedge is for protection but Ecclesiastes says... Eccl 10:8 He that diggeth a pit shall fall into it; and whoso breaketh an hedge, a serpent shall bite him.

 

[Strong in Him]

Question is... do you think God will ignore the sacrifice of Jesus who has purchased you with His own blood... and "allow" satan to afflict you?
How does your view of Job affect your personal faith. Does it destroy your confidence in God? Do you sit around and worry that you are next? Does God in fact consider the work of Jesus as a discountable issue with regards to your salvation?
If Job causes fear and doubt in your walk with God... then you are using it incorrectly and the devil has you.

Job doesn't destroy my confidence in God, or cause me to walk in fear. The opening chapters of Job give me some idea about what is going on behind the scenes, in the heavenlies; Satan wants to destroy, God allows him to go so far, knowing that he won't succeed and will only be defeated.

As someone pointed out, Jesus said that Satan had asked for permission to test Peter. Satan also entered into Judas. So the devil thought he was planning something wicked - Jesus' downfall and destruction - but this had already been decided by God. HE planned, predicted and wanted the cross, HE allowed others to betray, deny, flog, torture, mock and kill his Son. Never mind that Satan thought that he was being clever getting Jesus out of the way, or that he had the upper hand, it was all under control. God doesn't ignore Jesus' sacrifice, he caused it. He wanted Jesus - who was God the Son, it is true, but was also a human being who had real nerves and muscles and really felt pain - to suffer and die. Why? Because he knew that this was the way to defeat the devil. The devil planned the most horrific murder ever - that of the Son of God. But if it hadn't happened, we'd still be lost.

At the beginning of the book of Job we are told that Satan asked for permission to do something, and God allowed it. It did not cause Job to curse God; it shows us - well, me anyway, that Satan is under God's control and can never have more power than God. How peeved Satan must be, he once thought he could become greater than God, he now can't do a thing without God's knowledge.

 

[Lpe04]

This verse doesn't say he had an illness... the word you have for illness is peirasmos and The New Testament Greek Lexicon translates it as
1. an experiment, attempt, trial, proving
1. trial, proving: the trial made of you by my bodily condition, since condition served as to test the love of the Galatians toward Paul (Gal. 4:
2.
1. the trial of man's fidelity, integrity, virtue, constancy
1. an enticement to sin, temptation, whether arising from the desires or from the outward circumstances
2. an internal temptation to sin 1b
2. of the temptation by which the devil sought to divert Jesus the Messiah from his divine errand
1. of the condition of things, or a mental state, by which we are enticed to sin, or to a lapse from the faith and holiness
2. adversity, affliction, trouble: sent by God and serving to test or prove one's character, faith, holiness
3. temptation (i.e. trial) of God by men
1. rebellion against God, by which his power and justice are, as it were, put to the proof and challenged to show themselves ...

God bless, Mike.

Yes, but the next verse reads

"I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me."

So obviously it was an illness that had to with his eyes or eyesight.

God Bless

 

[PastorMike]

Yes, but the next verse reads

"I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me."

So obviously it was an illness that had to with his eyes or eyesight.

God Bless

Not necessarily... if I said I would give you my right arm would people think your right arm was missing... or if i said lend a hand would you think I had only one hand...

God bless, Mike.

 

[probinson]

At the beginning of the book of Job we are told that Satan asked for permission to do something, and God allowed it.

This simply is untrue. Satan never asked permission and God never granted it.

Satan tried to get God to strike Job. God refused. Satan said, if it weren't for that hedge. God said, there is no hedge.

No permission asked for. No permission granted.

 

[Strong in Him]

Scripture does not say that God "agreed" to anything. This is a wrong conclusion that people have drawn from something that is not in the scripture.

It is in my Bible. God says, "Very well then, everything he has is in your hands", and it is only after he says this that the devil goes out and inflicts Job. All Job's cattle, sons, daughters etc were destroyed after the devil said that if Job were tested he would deny God, and God said "everything is in your hands." This attempt didn't work, Job's answer was "the Lord has given and the Lord has taken away. Praise the name of the Lord". Satan appeared before God again and God said "have you considered Job .................. he still maintains integrity". Satan then suggested that Job would act differently if his health were to suffer, and God once again said "he is in your hands, but do not kill him." It was only after this that Job was afflicted with sores.

The whole teaching of Job, surely, is that Job maintained that his suffering was not of his own making or punishment for sin, because he knew he had lived a blameless life. He therefore struggled to understand why he was suffering - believing as they did that suffering was connected with sin.
Job's "friends" maintained otherwise, which is why the Lord critcised them, and told Job to pray for their forgiveness. Job repented because he had demanded answers from God, he asked God to appear in court so that he could put his case against him. When God revealed himself as Sovereign Lord, Almighty God, who asked for no one's help when he created the world and mankind and did not have to answer to anyone, then Job said that he had spoken of things he did not understand, and repented of his attitude.

 

[JimB]

That Job suffered is undeniable. Job said, I am afraid of all my sufferings (v.9.28). However you define it, Job felt he was suffering.

However, I believe the story of Job is both one of suffering and victory. The purpose of suffering, as I understand it, is that we might be victorious over it.

~Jim

 

[probinson]

It is in my Bible. God says, "Very well then, everything he has is in your hands", and it is only after he says this that the devil goes out and inflicts Job.

But the NIV (which says "very well then") and other translations are mistaken here. God said Lo, Behold. That is not the same thing as "very well". I got nothing against the NIV, I use mine all the time, but this is a mistranslation according to Strong's.

All Job's cattle, sons, daughters etc were destroyed after the devil said that if Job were tested he would deny God, and God said "everything is in your hands." This attempt didn't work, Job's answer was "the Lord has given and the Lord has taken away. Praise the name of the Lord". Satan appeared before God again and God said "have you considered Job .................. he still maintains integrity". Satan then suggested that Job would act differently if his health were to suffer, and God once again said "he is in your hands, but do not kill him." It was only after this that Job was afflicted with sores.

But don't you see that JOB WAS WRONG. We agree that SATAN, not God, afflicted Job. Yet Job said that God had taken away. JOB WAS WRONG. God didn't take anything away from Job. Satan did. Why then does the Bible say that Job did no wrong at this point? Because he didn't know any better.

The whole teaching of Job, surely, is that Job maintained that his suffering was not of his own making or punishment for sin, because he knew he had lived a blameless life. He therefore struggled to understand why he was suffering - believing as they did that suffering was connected with sin.

Interestingly enough, Job says that if there was an adocate (Jesus anyone?) he would not have had to suffer so long (Job 9:32-35) Thank God we have Jesus!

 

[JimB]

*****
But don't you see that JOB WAS WRONG. We agree that SATAN, not God, afflicted Job. Yet Job said that God had taken away. JOB WAS WRONG. God didn't take anything away from Job. Satan did. Why then does the Bible say that Job did no wrong at this point? Because he didn't know any better.
*****

Whatever you may think of Job, God felt felt he was blameless and upright. There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil . . . Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?” (Job 1.1, 8).

You just may have to apologize to Job when you get to heaven.

~Jim

 

[9-iron]

If Job causes fear and doubt in your walk with God... then you are using it incorrectly and the devil has you.

Honestly the whole story of Job does make me a little unsettled. What did God have to prove in this situation? Why would God have to justify anything to Satan? Why would God literally destroy one of His own over Satan's prodding?