James 2:24 NOT by FAITH ALONE

[Catholic Dude]

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

What is your take on this? The Bible clearly says you are not justified by faith alone, more over it says you are justified by works.

Why did people like Luther insist on "faith alone".

 

[Prodigy]

Faith without works is dead. Useless.

You must be led by the Holy Spirit in thought, word and deed to be justified in God's sight.

 

[mepalmer3]

What is your take on this? The Bible clearly says you are not justified by faith alone, more over it says you are justified by works.

Why did people like Luther insist on "faith alone".

Hmmm... I'm lutheran and I've never heard that luther insisted on "faith alone". I think if you put it into it's proper context, in a time when the catholic church was demanding that salvation must be paid for, then even if luther had said "faith alone", it would seem more of a reaction to the catholic church. Most christians think "faith alone" is a possibility in that a person can confess to God on their deathbed, perhaps having lived a wicked life. And certainly what the church was saying for awhile (that we need to buy our salvation) was such of an horrific heresy that there needs to be a very clear understanding that people do not earn their salvation by what they do or by how much we believe.

But faith and works seem to work together like 2 blades of scissors. You can't really have one without the other.

 

[Verv]

Ephesians 2:8-98 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It's just another contradiction.

Notice the distinct colon -- you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God -- COLON: not of works, lest any man should boast.

It means that you are not saved by works alone, nor are you saved by Faith alone. It is a joint relationship. It is not a contradiction, but rather two different parts of the Bible emphasizing two different sides of it.

 

[Paleoconservatarian]

I think the source of confusion is our modern distinction between faith and works. There was no such distinction to the authors and ancient recipients of the Bible. There was no such thing as a faith that does not result in works (unlike our modern, evangelical, fluffy feelings of belief and acceptance). Therefore, the faith which saves is a real faith unto good works.

 

[<Follower>]

What is your take on this? The Bible clearly says you are not justified by faith alone, more over it says you are justified by works.

Why did people like Luther insist on "faith alone".

what kind of ''works'' are shown in James?

Works of the law or merely evidences of our faith?

 

[Stinker]

The non-Christian is saved when they first truly believe. After that, the by-product of this faith (New Testament works) immediately show. Without even trying, the nature of faith does produce works. They may not be on a grand scale but they are seen as a flood-light by the carnal people around them.

 

[12volt_man]

what kind of ''works'' are shown in James?

Works of the law or merely evidences of our faith?

This is where Roman Catholics get it wrong.

To read the entire chapter in context shows us that it's not the works, in themselves, that save us, but the faith that spurs us on to perform those works.

In each of the examples of works shown here, such as Abraham's and Rahab's, the works were simply an outward manifestation of their faith.

It is the faith that they showed through their acts that saved them, not the acts, themselves.

Remember that both Romans 4:3 and Galatians 3:6 tell us that Abraham believed God and it was his belief or his faith that caused God to consider him righteous.

 

[InquisitorKind]

The Bible clearly says you are not justified by faith alone, more over it says you are justified by works.

James doesn't advocate a justification through works, or a justification through a combination of works and faith. James himself says that if a person breaks one part of the law, he's broken all of it (James 2:10). How could anyone depend on his works to give or complete justification? Perfect obedience would be required for works to even be a part of justification.

Advocates of a justification that necessitates works will often quote James 2:24:


You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

However, James isn't speaking about justification by works before God, but before men (James 2:18).

Additionally, the context of James 2:24 (James 2:14) indicates that he is speaking of two types of faith (emphasis mine):

What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

In other words, the way for humans to determine if true faith is present is through the presence of works; that is the meaning of James 2:24. Otherwise, James 2:21 would be in direct contradiction with passages like Genesis 15:6 and Romans 4:3.

How do advocates of a works and faith based justification before God explain verses such as Romans 4:5, Acts 10:44, and Mark 2:5? How do they explain James' reasoning that a justification involving works would be impossible for a perpetual sinner or Paul's criticism of a works and faith based justification (Galatians 3:3), which he condemned as a false gospel (Galatians 1:6-9)?

~Matt

 

[ps139]

But faith and works seem to work together like 2 blades of scissors. You can't really have one without the other.

It means that you are not saved by works alone, nor are you saved by Faith alone. It is a joint relationship. It is not a contradiction, but rather two different parts of the Bible emphasizing two different sides of it.

Some great answers here!

 

[constance]

Faith brings works - works is a side effect of faith.

"You shall know them by their fruits" - fruits are works.

Luther was really hung up on the "Noble's Ring" sermon - his "Sola Fide" proclamation may have been his own personal pendulum swing.

Constance

 

[PaladinValer]

"Faith"-alone is antinomianism.
Works-alone is pelagianism.

Active Faith is orthodoxy.

 

[Amongst the Flock]

ITS TIME TO WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How can someone have faith if their works are dead?

How can I have faith in Jesus if I do whatever I want and continue to sin at will and grieve the spirit?

For example I could tell you all about Michael Jordan but I have never met him. The same goes for Jesus in I could know all about the Bible but if I don't know Jesus in an intimate way in my heart then I don't know him and won't ever be with him. The works we do are because we want to please him and so the world can see his glory through us. We do live by faith and not by sight but the world lives by sight so they can only see his spirit through us.

Matthew 7:21-23

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Jesus is exposing those who sound religious but have no personal relationship with him. On the day of judgment only our acceptance of Christ and our obedience to his will not ours will matter. Many people feel that if they have good moral and say religious things that they will be rewarded with eternal life. In reality faith in Christ based on your personal relationship and the righteous works you did for his kingdom to will get you to heaven. The works don't get you there but you do the works so that you have faith that you are not only believing in Christ but that you are serving him with the righteous works that you are doing for the Father's kingdom, thus faith and works go together and you can't have faith if your good works our dead.

ALL GLORY AND PRAISE TO THE HOLY TRINITY.

What message our we sending to the world if our works our dead and we are still living by the world's standards and not by Christ's standards?

How can we have faith in Christ if our works our evil?

We get to heaven by faith but in order to have faith we have to know Jesus in an intimate way and we have to do things out of Christian humility so the world can see how he transformed us from the old self to the new. 2 Corinthians 5:17.

 

[linden]

What is your take on this? The Bible clearly says you are not justified by faith alone, more over it says you are justified by works.

Why did people like Luther insist on "faith alone".

The context of James is that he is addressing born again believers of Jewish decent. The faith in James 2:24 is dealing with works after salvation.

In verse 21, Abraham was obviosly saved before this point. He offered up Isaac after he believed in Jesus Christ , or the 2nd person of the Trinity, as he knew Him back then. An example of works by faith after salvation.

In Verse 25, Rahab was already saved when she did her works. These all pertain to works after salvation. Some what different then faith at salvation.

Luther insistance on faith alone at salvation because he exegeted Romans by learning the Greek language. He was correct in saying so. But he too had a problem with James. I've been told he even thought James should be out of the New Testament Scriptures.

Linden

 

[12volt_man]

"Faith"-alone is antinomianism.

Actually, that's not what antinomianism means.

 

[Catholic Dude]

I got back as soon as I could. I found out this thread was moved and so I had to find it again. I am reading the resposes as fast as I can. Some people have some good stuff to say I see.

 

[constance]

Actually, that's not what antinomianism means.

PaladinValer,

Antinomianism is when one believes that Christians are not bound by moral laws because one is "saved"...like the 16th century libertines...

Pelagianism was a heresy denying original sin and grace. What does this have to with Grace Alone?

I realize that it's a venerable "Tradition" to label people and ideas one does not understand with the name of one or another ancient heresies. Perhaps this is a tradition which does not belong to the True Church.

Constance

 

[Philip]

Luther insistance on faith alone at salvation because he exegeted Romans by learning the Greek language. He was correct in saying so.

Funny that Luther's Sola Fide, and his notion of justification in general, was completely unknown to the Greek Theologians who used the Greek language on a daily basis.

But he too had a problem with James. I've been told he even thought James should be out of the New Testament Scriptures.

Relegated to an appendix might be more accurate.

 

[Philip]

Pelagianism was a heresy denying original sin and grace.

I deny the concept of Original Sin/Guilt. Am I pelagian?

 

[PaladinValer]

I deny the concept of Original Sin/Guilt. Am I pelagian?

No; they just don't know what pelagianism or antinomianism are.