isnt a crucifix a graven image

[deb7648]

Im fairly new in the lord and have many ?
one is if the bible speaks against graven images
why do so many churchs have crucifix's
statues of mary large picture's of christ.
thanks for helping me understand

 

[Jebediah]

The graven image thing was about making idols and then worshipping them as gods. Making images that represent holy things are not really the same thing. In the case of the idols, the idols themselves were worshipped, in the case of the Crucifix or Christ or Mary, it is what the images point to that are being venerated and except for Chistological or Trinitarian images, not actually worshipped.

Also, one of the reasons no one was to make an image of God to worship was that before Christ, we didn't have an image of God that was true. Since the incarnation, we do.

 

[deb7648]

im sorry i guess i just dont get it
my understanding is no graven images
even of christ i will try reading those scriptures again

 

[Iollain]

Im fairly new in the lord and have many ?
one is if the bible speaks against graven images
why do so many churchs have crucifix's
statues of mary large picture's of christ.
thanks for helping me understand

All depends on what your going to do with it.

 

[deb7648]

All depends on what your going to do with it.

that is a very simple answer and after
all my confusion and searching, thank you
i believe i now understand

 

[Iollain]

that is a very simple answer and after
all my confusion and searching, thank you
i believe i now understand

Your welcome

 

[BigChrisfilm]

I didn't understand at first, but as long as you don't put something before the lord, it isn't a graven image, that means, if you think something is more important, or you treat it more importantly, then you should get rid of it, if you wouldn't be willing to give up your cross for Jesus, it is something you might want to think about, otherwise, I see no problem with pics and crosses, JMHO though.

 

[Iollain]

I didn't understand at first, but as long as you don't put something before the lord, it isn't a graven image, that means, if you think something is more important, or you treat it more importantly, then you should get rid of it, if you wouldn't be willing to give up your cross for Jesus, it is something you might want to think about, otherwise, I see no problem with pics and crosses, JMHO though.

I don't see a problem with owning pics and crosses, i see a problem in incorperating them in our praise and worship, as in bowing down to, or praying at. The Lord lives, bow to Him, pray to Him.

 

[stray bullet]

Im fairly new in the lord and have many ?
one is if the bible speaks against graven images
why do so many churchs have crucifix's
statues of mary large picture's of christ.
thanks for helping me understand

Why did Moses make a staff with a serpent, or golden cherubs?

Nothing wrong with images, the issue are graven issues which are worshipped for their own merit. These clearly attempt to distract us from God.

 

[DiscoFrank]

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with having icons, pictures, statues, crucifixes etc etc for devotional purposes. The problem arises when people start worshipping these as God rather than God himself.

 

[artybloke]

The whole thing about "graven images" should be read in the context of pagan religions, whereby created things were worshipped as gods. Wood, stone, metal, whatever, representing the wind, fire, the elements.

God is not a thing like a tree or the wind. God is spirit. Icons in the Catholic/Orthodox tradition are not worshipped; they are venerated. They are seen not as gods themselves but as - albeit imperfect - pictures of the one true God.

 

[PaladinValer]

The whole thing about "graven images" should be read in the context of pagan religions, whereby created things were worshipped as gods. Wood, stone, metal, whatever, representing the wind, fire, the elements.

God is not a thing like a tree or the wind. God is spirit. Icons in the Catholic/Orthodox tradition are not worshipped; they are venerated. They are seen not as gods themselves but as - albeit imperfect - pictures of the one true God.

Or the Anglican tradition

Icons are basically Images of the Divine; Windows into the Celestial. This includes not just what are traditionally called icons, but also statuary, crosses/crucifixes, and other items, including one that may surprise people:

We ourselves are icons; we are Christ's hands and feet: He has none but ours' in the world. Through us, others can see Christ...are we a graven image? After all, we were made in His Image, after all.

When Apostolic Christians (ie: Vatican Catholics, Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, etc) kiss an icon, revere a statue, venerate the cross, etc, we are not doing such to the item, but to the Holy which it represents. I honor St. Mary the Theotokos by kissing a statue of her, thanking her for being the Theotokos and Mother of God/Salvation/Mercy/Love/Forgiveness/Etc. It is in thanks, not in worship. When I bow to the Life-giving cross, it is in thanks for what Jesus did on it. When I kiss an icon of Jesus, it is to worship Him.

To be rid of icons is to be rid of humanity. That's a dangerous part of Iconoclasm. The logical application of that particular heresy would be a genocide of our own species.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Im fairly new in the lord and have many ?
one is if the bible speaks against graven images
why do so many churchs have crucifix's
statues of mary large picture's of christ.
thanks for helping me understand

No.



- Josiah

 

[vanshan]

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with having icons, pictures, statues, crucifixes etc etc for devotional purposes. The problem arises when people start worshipping these as God rather than God himself.

Which probably never happens. I've been Orthodox for 11 years now, and I have never seen anyone leave the faith to start worshipping the wood and paint our icons are written on.

Basil

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Im fairly new in the lord and have many ?
one is if the bible speaks against graven images
why do so many churchs have crucifix's
statues of mary large picture's of christ.
thanks for helping me understand

It is worse than you think. Jesus himself has become an idol in the church. Anything about him that doesn't please the modern concept of an 'all merciful' Jesus is cast away, leaving an 'idealized' Jesus that is more comfortable for most. But Jesus came to reveal the FATHER, and as the Father is angry, so was Jesus angry. The church should pay more attention to God's anger, if they want to know the true God.

 

[artybloke]

Or the Anglican tradition

You mean the Anglican tradition isn't part of the Catholic tradition?

 

[QuantaCura]

The pagans used to ridicule Christians for their veneration of the Crucifix. Here is some ancient grafitti from the early second century that does just that. It showed a donkey headed man on a crucifix (an blasphemous insult to Christ) and a man before it with arms raised and the caption read:

"Alexamenos worships his god."

I'm not sure if people will be offended by the picture (it's a very crude and basic sketch) so here is a link to it:


http://z.about.com/d/altreligion/1/0/B/K/2/alexamenos2.jpg

 

[eladoni]

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with having icons, pictures, statues, crucifixes etc etc for devotional purposes. The problem arises when people start worshipping these as God rather than God himself.

Also, Satan cannot be divided, so if a crucifix reminds you of what Christ did for you, and you get closer to God, and your faith increases because of it, how can that be evil? for then satan would be divided against himself, and his kingdom would not stand.

 

[PaladinValer]

You mean the Anglican tradition isn't part of the Catholic tradition?

Toche!!!

 

[The Prokeimenon!]

It is worse than you think. Jesus himself has become an idol in the church. Anything about him that doesn't please the modern concept of an 'all merciful' Jesus is cast away, leaving an 'idealized' Jesus that is more comfortable for most. But Jesus came to reveal the FATHER, and as the Father is angry, so was Jesus angry. The church should pay more attention to God's anger, if they want to know the true God.

I don't want to know this "God" that you're talking about.

Rdr Moses