Is the story of Lazarus and the rich man literal?

[tonychanyt]

It was likely a parable.

Lk 16:

22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

The rich man in Hades saw Abraham and Lazarus in heaven. That's not physically possible.

Why was the rich man being tortured in Hades?

Just because he did not listen to Moses (v. 31). But Moses didn't spell out the punishment of conscious eternal punishment in Hades/Sheol.

Why was Lazarus blessed at Abraham's side?

Just because he was poor?

Did Jesus describe a historical story that had transpired already?

No, a rich man would not be tormented in Hades before Judgment Day.

Matthew 13:

34 All these things Jesus said to the crowds in parables; indeed, he said nothing to them without a parable.

The rich man story was part of a series of parables in Luke 15–16, which include the parables of the lost sheep, the lost coin, the lost prodigal son, the almost-lost dishonest manager, and the lost rich man. This was Jesus' MO of storytelling to teach moral and spiritual lessons using parables.

Similar parables were told by rabbis around Jesus' time. Wiki:

The basic storyline of The Rich Man and Lazarus was derived from Jewish stories that had developed from an Egyptian folk tale about Si-Osiris.

It was a parable of fortune reversal. In life, Lazarus begged at the rich man's house. After death, the rich man begged Father Abraham to have mercy on him. It was intended to teach spiritual truths rather than provide literal happenings in the afterlife.

What is the lesson of the parable?

Abraham said to the rich man:

31b ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’

Respond to God's word while we have the opportunity. Do good when we can before we cannot. Care for the poor in your neighborhood. Our earthly choices have eternal consequences.

 

[timewerx]

Yeah, it's probably a parable.

But if the rich would truly fulfill their purpose of funneling the Lord's provisions to the poor (Parable of the Faithful Servant and Luke 12:48), they probably won't be living in "comfort". I meant "comfort" from worldly standard because "comfort" from a Godly standard would be probably be too uncomfortable from a worldly standard.

Because:
Luke 6:24-26
24But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort. 25Woe to you who are well fed now, for you will hunger. Woe to you who laugh now, for you will mourn and weep

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It was likely a parable.

Lk 16:


The rich man in Hades saw Abraham and Lazarus in heaven. That's not physically possible.

Why was the rich man being tortured in Hades?

Just because he did not listen to Moses (v. 31). But Moses didn't spell out the punishment of conscious eternal punishment in Hades/Sheol.

Why was Lazarus blessed at Abraham's side?

Just because he was poor?

Did Jesus describe a historical story that had transpired already?

No, a rich man would not be tormented in Hades before Judgment Day.

Matthew 13:


The rich man story was part of a series of parables in Luke 15–16, which include the parables of the lost sheep, the lost coin, the lost prodigal son, the almost-lost dishonest manager, and the lost rich man. This was Jesus' MO of storytelling to teach moral and spiritual lessons using parables.

Similar parables were told by rabbis around Jesus' time. Wiki:


It was a parable of fortune reversal. In life, Lazarus begged at the rich man's house. After death, the rich man begged Father Abraham to have mercy on him. It was intended to teach spiritual truths rather than provide literal happenings in the afterlife.

What is the lesson of the parable?

Abraham said to the rich man:


Respond to God's word while we have the opportunity. Do good when we can before we cannot. Care for the poor in your neighborhood. Our earthly choices have eternal consequences.

I completely disagree. It is not a parable. Look at the parables of Jesus. In none of them does He refer to real people and places like He does in Luke 16:19-31. If that passage was a parable then it would be a parable completely unlike any other parable. He refers to real people like Abraham, Moses and the prophets and to hell/Hades which is a real place that is separate from where believers go when they die which Jesus called Abraham's bosom or Abraham's side in that story. In His parables, Jesus referred to fictional people and places that figuratively represented real people and places. That is not what we see in Luke 16:19-31.

And Jesus names the beggar (Lazarus). He does not give names to fictional people in His parables. Also, He gives a very specific detail that the rich man had five brothers. What would be the point of giving a specific detail like that if it was a parable? He never did that in His parables. If it was a parable he would have just said that the rich man had brothers without specifying how many he had since it would be pointless to indicate how many brothers the rich man had in a parable. The fact that He specified how many brothers the rich man had shows that he was a real person who had five brothers who were real people.

Why do you doubt that unbelievers go to hell/Hades when they die and experience torment there? Why would Jesus describe someone being in torment in hell/Hades if that isn't a reality? It would be completely unlike Jesus to be misleading like that.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

Something can be both a parable, and a true story. I believe that applies to this passage.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Something can be both a parable, and a true story. I believe that applies to this passage.

What do you mean by that?

 

[tonychanyt]

I completely disagree.

The rich man in Hades saw Abraham and Lazarus in heaven. When?

 

[timewerx]

I completely disagree. It is not a parable. Look at the parables of Jesus. In none of them does He refer to real people and places like He does in Luke 16:19-31. If that passage was a parable then it would be a parable completely unlike any other parable. He refers to real people like Abraham, Moses and the prophets and to hell/Hades which is a real place that is separate from where believers go when they die which Jesus called Abraham's bosom or Abraham's side in that story. In His parables, Jesus referred to fictional people and places that figuratively represented real people and places. That is not what we see in Luke 16:19-31.

And Jesus names the beggar (Lazarus). He does not give names to fictional people in His parables. Also, He gives a very specific detail that the rich man had five brothers. What would be the point of giving a specific detail like that if it was a parable? He never did that in His parables. If it was a parable he would have just said that the rich man had brothers without specifying how many he had since it would be pointless to indicate how many brothers the rich man had in a parable. The fact that He specified how many brothers the rich man had shows that he was a real person who had five brothers who were real people.

Why do you doubt that unbelievers go to hell/Hades when they die and experience torment there? Why would Jesus describe someone being in torment in hell/Hades if that isn't a reality? It would be completely unlike Jesus to be misleading like that.

It could have happened for real but the moral principle seem unchanged whether it happened for real or not.

It's related to the Parable of the Unfaithful Servant. We're all stewards of God's possession. Yet many Christians get selfish with their resources saying they "worked hard" for it so they're entitled to it yet it was the Lord who gave them the ability.

Not everyone is gifted with the skills, abilities, and circumstances to earn enough to allow them to live comfortably. Yet the Lord also wants those who didn't have the skills, intelligence, having lived through the worst circumstances to live well too. They can't do it on their own and the teachings of Jesus of full of helping those with little. Those who cannot help themselves if you keep telling them to work hard and keep telling them stories of poor, limbless people who got rich, they just can't. Ironically, it's not even true that everyone who's poor who works hard and smart enough, they can get out of poverty. Some will remain poor even if they did their very best, even if how hard they prayed and lived in faith. It's just the way things work due to competition and not everyone has good IQ, even maybe, the Lord had other plans for them. Even Jesus acknowledged the reality. It's up to His followers to help those who cannot help themselves.

This is why the "rich in this world" often seen as the bad guy in Christ's teachings. Simply because if you're rich, you're probably not being good steward of the Lord's possessions most of the time Christians feel strongly entitled to it for their own use for their comfort and leisure.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The rich man in Hades saw Abraham and Lazarus in heaven. When?

It doesn't say that the rich man saw them in heaven. I don't believe the souls of dead believers were taken to paradise (the third heaven) until after Christ's death. His death and resurrection is what made the way for people to go to paradise/heaven. Jesus referred to the rich man seeing Abraham and Lazarus in "Abraham's bosom". You assume that refers to heaven, but it could have been some other place where the souls of dead believers were before they were taken to heaven. As for your question of when, Jesus doesn't say when the rich man saw Abraham and Lazarus, but I would assume it was some time before Jesus told that story.

Do you have any thoughts on anything else I said in my previous post? Can you acknowledge that Luke 16:19-31 has some details in it that are not typical of one of Jesus's parables such as the fact that He named real people and places and gave specific details about the rich man's family?

 

[tonychanyt]

Jesus referred to the rich man seeing Abraham and Lazarus in "Abraham's bosom".

When did the rich man see Abraham and Lazarus in Abraham's bosom?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

When did the rich man see Abraham and Lazarus in Abraham's bosom?

See post #8. I already answered that question. I said "As for your question of when, Jesus doesn't say when the rich man saw Abraham and Lazarus, but I would assume it was some time before Jesus told that story.". Why do you ask?

 

[tonychanyt]

See post #8. I already answered that question. I said "As for your question of when, Jesus doesn't say when the rich man saw Abraham and Lazarus, but I would assume it was some time before Jesus told that story.". Why do you ask?

Had the rich man been resurrected and judged already?

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

What do you mean by that?

It may have been a fictional account of an actual place, which would make it both a parable and a true story. By analogy, the sinking of the Titanic was an actual historical event, but the love story between passengers named Jack and Rose was made up.

 

[Aaron112]

It was likely a parable.

Yes, and not like other parables. Jesus was using the false beliefs (like Abram and bosom and other) of the Scribes and Pharisess against them in this story Jesus told ..... Jesus exposed their errors using their own fairytales against them, and some of them may have realized it.
For the simple Scripture Proof that it was not/is not/ , for many detailed reasons, not a true event, see the rich man and lazarus pdf by e.w.bullinger; he goes through all Scripture from Genesis thru Revelation as God Directed, and shows the simple clear truth about the rich man and lazarus in total harmony with all of Scripture and not as if it actually happened which then requires twisting Scriptures to accommodate the blatant discrepancies from reality.

 

[tonychanyt]

It may have been a fictional account of an actual place, which would make it both a parable and a true story. By analogy, the sinking of the Titanic was an actual historical event, but the love story between passengers named Jack and Rose was made up.

Is the story of Jack and Rose a true story?
Is the story of Lazarus and the rich man a true story?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Had the rich man been resurrected and judged already?

No. Why do you ask?

 

[tonychanyt]

No. Why do you ask?

Did the rich man have eyes and tongue?

 

[Johan2222]

Whether it is a parable or a true story is in a sense irrelevant, because Christ would not have told it if it was not the truth or a revelation of the truth that would come to pass.

The fact is that it is in agreement with the rest of the Scriptures, as of course you should expect

Without suffering, we are nothing to do with God.

Hebrews 12:8 KJV
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Without suffering, we are illegitimate children and the father of the illegitimate is not God.

Hebrews 12.8. 2 Timothy 2.12 & 3.12. 2 Thessalonians 1.5.

John 8:44 KJV
Ye are of your father the devil, . . .

Matthew 13:37-39 KJV
He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; [38] The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; [39] The enemy that sowed them is the devil;

1 Timothy 5:6 KJV
But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Did the rich man have eyes and tongue?

I asked you why you asked the previous question and your response is another question? Can you just tell me what you are getting at with these questions? Please get to the point. I understand that there is figurative language in Luke 16:19-31 and it can't be talking about the rich man's literal eyes and tongue since his body was dead, but the fact that it contains some figurative language does not make it a parable. Otherwise, we'd have to consider much of the book of Revelation other prophecies containing figurative language to be parables as well.

Abraham and Moses are real people and hell or Hades is a real place. Lazarus the beggar is a real person as well. Jesus did not give names to fictional people. Jesus giving the specific detail that the rich man had five brothers indicates that the rich man was a real person as well. Why would Jesus talk about someone experiencing torment in Hades if people don't actually experience torment there? Jesus would not be misleading like that, so it must be true that people experience torment of some kind there or else Jesus would not have indicated as such.

 

[tonychanyt]

Can you just tell me what you are getting at with these questions?

Answer the question simply and you'll find out