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Except the word of God states that all Scritpure is God-breathed (2 Tim 3:16), it's not "hear-say."The Lord inspires humans to write.
Humans write per Tradition.
St Mark and St Luke heard Tradition and wrote the Gospels on hearsay.
Start with 2 Tim 3:16 to understand what you are dealing with.Hearsay aka oral is Tradition handed down.
The canon/Bible itself is Tradition in many ways.
But start with Luke and Mark to understand.
I recently watched a debate on Sola Scriptura, which admittedly wasn't very good. That said, the argument Jimmy Akin gave is succinct and incisive:
P1. Sola Scriptura says that all doctrines must be derivable from Scripture.P2. Sola Scriptura is a doctrine.C1. Therefore, Sola Scriptura must be derivable from Scripture.P3. But Sola Scriptura is not derivable from Scripture.C2. Therefore, Sola Scriptura is self-refuting, and hence false.
What do you think?
For those who defend Sola Scriptura, which of the three premises of the argument would you attack and why?
I would really like for this to be a thread about this particular argument, so I will redirect or ignore responses that do not address it. That said, inevitably users will post other arguments for or against Sola Scriptura and derail the thread until the cows come home. Oh well!
Maybe 7% of the time, which isn't much.Jimmy Akin has never really struck me as the sharpest knife in the drawer. He tends to make straw man arguments and argue talking points, and not facts.
That idea was addressed early on in the thread (e.g. #9). The very fact that Akin presents P2 as a premise proves that he is not conflating it with a doctrine. It is presented it as a doctrine and the interlocutor is required to intelligently argue otherwise if they disagree.In this case, he begins with the false premise that sola scriptura is a doctrine. It is often conflated with doctrine, but it is not. It is a praxis, not a doctrine.
That's a talking point, not an argument.He then claims that sola scriptura cannot be derived from scripture, which is ridiculous, since we see sola scriptura all throughout scripture.
Every time I've heard him.Maybe 7% of the time, which isn't much.
He literally calls it a doctrine, which shows that he does, in fact, consider it a doctrine.That idea was addressed early on in the thread (e.g. #9). The very fact that Akin presents P2 as a premise proves that he is not conflating it with a doctrine. It is presented it as a doctrine and the interlocutor is required to intelligently argue otherwise if they disagree.
Actually, it's neither. It's just a response to your question.That's a talking point, not an argument.
You don't need to. That's what "premise" means.Why should we accept his premise that it is a doctrine?
A premise is a controvertible presupposition of an argument. In no way does it have to be agreed upon by both parties. If you watch the OP debate (or any debate) you will find that Akin often asks, "Which premise do you dispute?" The whole point of premises in arguments is to have some clear option to dispute.Actually, a premise must be agreed upon by both parties.
Doctrines Given by Revelation from our heavenly Creator might well not be derivable from Scripture. i.e. not by human doing, but only by YHVH's Revealing.P1. Sola Scriptura says that all doctrines must be derivable from Scripture.P2. Sola Scriptura is a doctrine.C1. Therefore, Sola Scriptura must be derivable from Scripture.P3. But Sola Scriptura is not derivable from Scripture.C2. Therefore, Sola Scriptura is self-refuting, and hence false.
What do you think?
Why is it silly to claim the Biblical praxis of sola scriptura is taught in scripture?It is the silly argument that SS is somehow taught in Scripture that people take exception to.
Sorry. The bell rang and I had to let the student in. Didn't get to finish my post to you.I've seen a few different definitions of SS from protestants. None of them are derived from Scripture.
It is the silly argument that SS is somehow taught in Scripture that people take exception to.
None of those passages says that Scripture is the sole infallible rule of faith.Here are some good examples of sola scriptura in scripture.
St. Cyril is not teaching sola scriptura here. Read his more detailed treatment of Scripture in another part of the same homily:Cyril of Jerusalem: This seal have thou ever on thy mind; which now by way of summary has been touched on in its heads, and if the Lord grant, shall hereafter be set forth according to our power, with Scripture-proofs. For concerning the divine and sacred Mysteries of the Faith, we ought not to deliver even the most casual remark without the Holy Scriptures: nor be drawn aside by mere probabilities and the artifices of argument. Do not then believe me because I tell thee these things, unless thou receive from the Holy Scriptures the proof of what is set forth: for this salvation, which is of our faith, is not by ingenious reasonings, but by proof from the Holy Scriptures (A Library of the Fathers of the Holy Catholic Church (Oxford: Parker, 1845), The Catechetical Lectures of S. Cyril 4.17).
Nonetheless, they are all examples of sola scriptura.None of those passages says that Scripture is the sole infallible rule of faith.
Well, I'm not allowed to debate in this forum, so I'll just point out that He literally says, "Do not then believe me because I tell thee these things, unless thou receive from the Holy Scriptures the proof of what is set forth: for this salvation, which is of our faith, is not by ingenious reasonings, but by proof from the Holy Scriptures" and leave it at that.St. Cyril is not teaching sola scriptura here.
I thought I was extending an olive branch by offering Catholic definitions of sola scriptura on which to find common ground.St. Cyril's statement you quoted speaks highly of Scripture, as a Christian should, but it does not say that you can determine what the content of Scripture is without the Church, and it does not say that Scripture is the sole infallible rule of faith.
In your unsupported opinion.The rest of the examples in your quote mine similarly fall short
Why should I accept your premise?but the point of a quote mine, of course, is to provide too many plausible citations for someone to address them all. Maybe it would be a good idea to take a step back and see if you can find a place in Scripture where it says the Bible is the sole infallible rule of faith.
Thank you for posting a few Scripture references that do not support any of the various definitions of SS.Sorry. The bell rang and I had to let the student in. Didn't get to finish my post to you.
Are any of these definitions official? Are they consistent with the historical understanding of the Biblical praxis of sola scriptura?
If we can't agree on the Protestant definition of the Biblical praxis of sola scriptura, can we agree on the Catholic definition?
From Catholic.com
the principle of sola scriptura ("Scripture alone"), according to the sharpest Protestant scholars, means that the Bible is the ultimate authority—above councils and popes and any tradition—but not that no commentary or tradition may be cited or utilized
from New Advent
"The [first] objective [or formal] principle proclaims the canonical Scriptures, especially the New Testament, to be the only infallible source and rule of faith and practice (not the only source)"
" Protestantism, however, by no means despises or rejects church authority as such, but only subordinates it to, and measures its value by, the Bible,"
Sola scriptura doesn't presume that the Bible is exhaustive in every detail. John 21:25 speaks to the fact that there are many things that Jesus said and did that are not recorded in John, or in fact in any book in the world because the whole books of the world could not contain it. But the Bible does not have to be exhaustive to function as the sole rule of faith for the Church. We do not need to know the color of Thomas’ eyes. We do not need to know the menu of each meal of the Apostolic band for the Scriptures to function as the sole rule of faith for the Church.
Nor does it deny the Church’s authority to teach God’s truth. I Timothy 3:15 describes the Church as “the pillar and foundation of the truth.” The truth is in Jesus Christ and in His Word. The Church teaches truth and calls men to Christ and, in so doing, functions as the pillar and foundation thereof. The Church does not add revelation or rule over Scripture. The Church being the bride of Christ, listens to the Word of Christ, which is found in God-breathed Scripture.
Apostolic preaching was authoritative in and of itself. Yet, the Apostles proved their message from Scripture, as we see in Acts 17:2, and 18:28, and John commended those in Ephesus for testing those who claimed to be Apostles, Revelation 2:2. The Apostles were not afraid to demonstrate the consistency between their teaching and the Old Testament.
And, finally, sola scriptura is not a denial of the role of the Holy Spirit in guiding and enlightening the Church.
Here are some good examples of sola scriptura in scripture. 2nd Timothy 3:16-17 - "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for Doctrine, for Reproof, for Correction, for Instruction in Righteousness; that the man of God may be thoroughly Furnished unto all good works."
Matthew 4:3-4 - "And when the tempter came to Him, he said, if Thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. But He answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."
Matthew 4:5-11 - Then the Devil taketh Him up into the Holy City, and setteth Him on a pinnacle of the Temple, and saith unto Him, if Thou be the Son of God, cast Thyself down; for it is written, He shall give His angels charge concerning Thee, and in their hands they shall bear Thee up, lest at any time Thou dash Thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, It is Written Again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."
Matthew 4:8 - "Again, the Devil taketh Him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth Him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; and saith unto Him, all these things will I give Thee, if Thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan; for it is written, thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve."
Matthew 21:42 - "Jesus said unto them, did ye never read in the scriptures, the Stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner; this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our Eyes!"
Revelation 22:18-19 -"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."
Proverbs 30:5-6 - "Every word of God is pure, He is a shield unto them that put their trust in Him. add thou not unto His words, lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a Liar!"
Matthew 12:3-5 -"but He said unto them, have ye not read what David did when he was an hungered, and they that were with Him?"
Matthew 19:4-5 "And He answered and said unto them, have ye not read that He which made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, for this reason shall a man leave father and mother and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be one flesh."
Matthew 22:31-32 - "But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God saying, I AM the God of Abraham, Isaac, and the God of Jacob. God is not the God of the dead, but of the Living."
Luke 10:26 - "He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?"
Matthew 22:29 -"..Ye do ERR, not knowing THE SCRIPTURES, nor the Power of God!"
Matthew 26:24 -"The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born".
John 5:39 - "Search the Scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life, and they are they which testify of me."
2nd Kings 22:10-13 - "And Shaphan the scribe shewed the king, saying, Hilkiah the priest hath delivered me a book. And Shaphan read it before the king. And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the book of the law, that he rent his clothes. And the king commanded Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Achbor the son of Michaiah, and Shaphan the scribe, and Asahiah a servant of the king's, saying, Go ye, enquire of the LORD for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that is found: for great is the wrath of the LORD that is kindled against us, because our fathers have not harkened unto the words of this book, to do according unto all that which is written concerning us."
2nd Timothy 3:16-17 - "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for Doctrine, for Reproof, for Correction, for Instruction in Righteousness; that the man of God may be thoroughly Furnished unto all good works."
Matthew 4:3-4 - "And when the tempter came to Him, he said, if Thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. But He answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."
Matthew 4:5-11 - Then the Devil taketh Him up into the Holy City, and setteth Him on a pinnacle of the Temple, and saith unto Him, if Thou be the Son of God, cast Thyself down; for it is written, He shall give His angels charge concerning Thee, and in their hands they shall bear Thee up, lest at any time Thou dash Thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, It is Written Again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."
Matthew 4:8 - "Again, the Devil taketh Him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth Him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; and saith unto Him, all these things will I give Thee, if Thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan; for it is written, thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve."
Matthew 21:42 - "Jesus said unto them, did ye never read in the scriptures, the Stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner; this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our Eyes!"
Revelation 22:18-19 -"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."
Proverbs 30:5-6 - "Every word of God is pure, He is a shield unto them that put their trust in Him. add thou not unto His words, lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a Liar!"
Matthew 12:3-5 -"but He said unto them, have ye not read what David did when he was an hungered, and they that were with Him?"
Matthew 19:4-5 "And He answered and said unto them, have ye not read that He which made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, for this reason shall a man leave father and mother and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be one flesh."
Matthew 22:31-32 - "But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God saying, I AM the God of Abraham, Isaac, and the God of Jacob. God is not the God of the dead, but of the Living."
Luke 10:26 - "He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?"
Matthew 22:29 -"..Ye do ERR, not knowing THE SCRIPTURES, nor the Power of God!"
Matthew 26:24 -"The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born".
John 5:39 - "Search the Scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life, and they are they which testify of me."
And these guys didn't seem to think sola scriptura is silly:
Augustine of Hippo: "This Mediator (Jesus Christ), having spoken what He judged sufficient first by the prophets, then by His own lips, and afterwards by the apostles, has besides produced the scripture which is called canonical, which has Paramount Authority, and to which we yield assent in all matters of which we ought not to be ignorant, and yet cannot know of ourselves." (Augustine of Hippo, City of God, Book 11, Chapter 3)
Cyril of Jerusalem: This seal have thou ever on thy mind; which now by way of summary has been touched on in its heads, and if the Lord grant, shall hereafter be set forth according to our power, with Scripture-proofs. For concerning the divine and sacred Mysteries of the Faith, we ought not to deliver even the most casual remark without the Holy Scriptures: nor be drawn aside by mere probabilities and the artifices of argument. Do not then believe me because I tell thee these things, unless thou receive from the Holy Scriptures the proof of what is set forth: for this salvation, which is of our faith, is not by ingenious reasonings, but by proof from the Holy Scriptures (A Library of the Fathers of the Holy Catholic Church (Oxford: Parker, 1845), The Catechetical Lectures of S. Cyril 4.17).
Gregory of Nyssa: "The generality of men still fluctuate in their opinions about this, which are as erroneous as they are numerous. As for ourselves, if the Gentile philosophy, which deals methodically with all these points, were really adequate for a demonstration, it would certainly be superfluous to add a discussion on the soul to those speculations, but while the latter proceeded, on the subject of the soul, as far in the direction of supposed consequences as the thinker pleased, we are not entitled to such license, I mean that of affirming what we please; we make the Holy Scriptures the rule and the measure of every tenet (dogma); we necessarily fix our eyes upon that, and approve that alone which may be made to harmonize with the intention of those writings." (Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Peabody: Hendrikson, 1995), Second Series: Volume V, Philosophical Works, On the Soul And the Resurrection, p. 439).
Gregory of Nyssa: Let the inspired Scriptures then be our umpire, and the vote of truth will be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words. (On the Holy Trinity NPNF, p. 327)
Basil the Great, Bishop of Caesarea: "Enjoying as you do the consolation of the Holy Scriptures, you stand in need neither of my assistance nor of that of anybody else to help you comprehend your duty. You have the all-sufficient counsel and guidance of the Holy Spirit to lead you to what is right" (Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Peabody: Hendrikson, 1995), Second Series: Volume VIII, Basil: Letters and Select Works, Letter CCLXXXIII, p. 312).
Basil the Great: We are not content simply because this is the tradition of the Fathers. What is important is that the Fathers followed the meaning of the Scripture. (On the Holy Spirit, 7.16)
Augustine: This Mediator: [Jesus Christ], having spoken what He judged sufficient first by the prophets, then by His own lips, and afterwards by the apostles, has besides produced the Scripture which is called canonical, which has paramount authority, and to which we yield assent in all matters of which we ought not to be ignorant, and yet cannot know of ourselves. (City of God, book XI, Chapter 3, )
Augustine: Better far that I should read with certainty and persuasion of its truth the Holy Scripture, placed on the highest (even the heavenly) pinnacle of authority, and should, without questioning the trustworthiness of its statements, learn from it that men have been either, commended, or corrected, or condemned, than that, through fear of believing that by men, who, though of most praiseworthy excellence, were no more than men, actions deserving rebuke might sometimes be done, I should admit suspicions affecting the trustworthiness of the whole oracles of God. (Letters of St. Augustine, Letter 82.2.5)
Augustine: Many false Christs and false prophets shall arise, and shall do many signs and wonders, that they may deceive, if it were possible, the very elect: behold, I have told you before. This shows that the established authority of Scripture must outweigh every other; for it derives new confirmation from the progress of events which happen, as Scripture proves, in fulfillment of the predictions made so long before their occurrence. (Reply to Faustus the Manichaean 13.5)
Augustine: Neither dare one agree with catholic bishops if by chance they err in anything, but the result that their opinion is against the canonical Scriptures of God. (De unitate ecclesiae, 10)
Irenaeus: We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith. (Against Heresies 3.1.1)
Clement of Alexandria: But those who are ready to toil in the most excellent pursuits, will not desist from the search after truth, till they get the demonstration from the Scriptures themselves. (The Stromata, 7:16)
Athanasius: The holy and inspired Scriptures are fully sufficient for the proclamation of the truth. (Against the Heathen, 1:3 )
Ambrose: For how can we adopt those things which we do not find in the holy Scriptures? (On the Duties of the Clergy, 1:23:102)
Well, since the rules say I'm not allowed to defend scripture in this forum, I'll just let the Biblical and historical examples I've provided speak for themselves.Thank you for posting a few Scripture references that do not support any of the various definitions of SS.
Also, be careful when quoting the Church Fathers. If you are willing to base your belief of SS on snippets of Church Father's writings, are you for example ready to follow EVERYTHING Ambrose or Augustine taught. I don't think you are.
Again, Solar Scriptura was never taught by Scripture or His Church.
You're certainly are allowed to attempt to defend SS. Whether you can successful is another story.Well, since the rules say I'm not allowed to defend scripture in this forum, I'll just let the Biblical and historical examples I've provided speak for themselves.
I have to ask, what exactly do you think sola scriptura means?Nonetheless, they are all examples of sola scriptura.
You are. I saw that you posted the same thing in the Catholic forum, where it's true you aren't allowed to debate, but Denomination-Specific Theology is open to everyone who professes the Nicene Creed. If in doubt, the rules for each forum are posted at the top in a sticky thread.Well, I'm not allowed to debate in this forum
There are two parts to this statement, so let's break it down:He literally says, "Do not then believe me because I tell thee these things, unless thou receive from the Holy Scriptures the proof of what is set forth: for this salvation, which is of our faith, is not by ingenious reasonings, but by proof from the Holy Scriptures"
You absolutely can. For starters, an explicit description would need to address the "sola" part.You can't get a more explicit description of sola scriptura.
Those definitions are consistent with what I've been saying. I'm not saying your examples from Scripture and the Fathers need to say Scripture is the only rule of faith, I'm saying they need to say Scripture is the only infallible rule of faith. So, for example, you would need to find something that excludes the possibility of the Church being infallible or allows for the possibility of the Church - not individuals within the Church, but the Church as an institution - teaching error.I thought I was extending an olive branch by offering Catholic definitions of sola scriptura on which to find common ground.
Apparently, you just ignored them.
What premise, the definition of sola scriptura? Or that your quote mine by its very nature excludes context that contradicts your claim?Why should I accept your premise?
You mean beyond the definition I've already provided?I have to ask, what exactly do you think sola scriptura means?
No need to be a jerk about it.What premise, the definition of sola scriptura? Or that your quote mine by its very nature excludes context that contradicts your claim?
Good points .....Actually, it's neither. It's just a response to your question.
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