Is eating pork still a sin according to Isaiah 66:17

[Hello There]

Is eating pork still a sin according to Isaiah 66:17?

 

[Zadok7000]

Considering verse 15 establishes the time frame as His Return, I don't see how verse 17 can refer to anything other than those hypocrites who honor Him with their lips only. IE "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

 

[Dave Taylor]

Is eating pork still a sin according to Isaiah 66:17?

No. According to the New Testament books of 1 Timothy and Matthew and Mark.

I Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ"


Matthew 15:11 "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man."



Mark 7:15 "There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him"

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Is eating pork still a sin according to Isaiah 66:17?

It was never a sin for Gentiles.

Gen 9:3
Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.Gen 9:4
But flesh with the life thereof, [which is] the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

And was an oracle given to Israel to keep as a secret of Wisdom, and represents a double meaning, according to the secrets of "wisdom"[ Job 11:6], for the nation of Israel was chosen as the keepers of the Living oracles which, themselves, had no power to perfect anyone as a son of God, which sons have the right and the power to enter into the House of God above, and come and go and stand before the Son of Man above in New Man garments of glory [which the priesthood only represented].

The spiritual meaning of the unclean beasts is given in the third dream vision of Enoch, where a Totemic imagery [as Ronald Brown pointed out, who edited and compiled a translation of 1 Enoch], is shown to Enoch, of the sons of Noah's sons in the history of the world, until the setting up of the Messiah's kingdom.

God has now cleansed all who come to Him through the blood of the everlasting covenant, which those born in the millennial kingdom will learn by the teaching and instruction of the Living Oracles, which living oracles were committed to the Jews [as the "namesake" nation; Israel, the "New Man": Isaiah 49], to keep, until all is fulfilled.

-they will not keep the fast days as fasts, for those have been fullfilled, but will keep them as feasts of celebration [as we all celebrate Passover as a memorial, who are born again]; and when they come into the everlasting covenant at the end of the seven years, the Church is already in heaven as perfected members of the City of God, Zion, the New Jerusalem; and Israel will teach the truths of the need to be born again in Christ, which is the end, or goal, of the Law [which is the perfection 'come to' in the New Birth], so that all born in the millennial reign may be born again into the everlasting covenant in the New Man's blood.

Job 11:6.
Peter got the message, in Acts of the secrets of Wisdom's double meaning in this matter;
Act 10:9¶On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.Act 10:15
And the voice [spake] unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou foul***[unclean].Act 10:16
This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

Act 10:17¶Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,Act 10:19
While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.Act 10:20
Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.Act 10:21
Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what [is] the cause wherefore ye are come?...
Act 10:34¶Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:Act 10:35
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

The fact is that the Church will be perfected at the first harvest of earth's sons of God [regenerated in bodies and sons of God, glorified, and dwelling in the heavenly realm with the angels], and the nation of Israel restored as vineyard keepers for the Father, to produce the fruit of sons of God for the second harvest, coming at the end of the thousand years.

At ccel.org, you can read the third dream vision where the totemic imagery of nations is given:
here's an excert for you about that, when Noah's three sons began to populate the earth as separated nations, or families, or tribes;

1 Enoch 89;
10 And they began to bring forth beasts of the field and birds, so that there arose different genera: lions, tigers, wolves, dogs, hyenas, wild boars, foxes, squirrels, swine, falcons, vultures, kites, eagles, and ravens; and among them was born a white bull. And they began to bite one another; but that white bull which was born amongst them begat a wild ass and a white bull with it, and the 12 wild asses multiplied. But that bull which was born from him begat a black wild boar and a white 13 sheep; and the former begat many boars, but that sheep begat twelve sheep. And when those twelve sheep had grown, they gave up one of them to the asses, and those asses again gave up that sheep to the wolves, and that sheep grew up among the wolves. And the Lord brought the eleven sheep to live with it and to pasture with it among the wolves: and they multiplied and became many flocks of sheep. And the wolves began to fear them, and they oppressed them until they destroyed their little ones, and they cast their young into a river of much water: but those sheep began to 16 cry aloud on account of their little ones, and to complain unto their Lord. And a sheep which had been saved from the wolves fled and escaped to the wild asses; and I saw the sheep how they lamented and cried, and besought their Lord with all their might, till that Lord of the sheep descended at the voice of the sheep from a lofty abode, and came to them and pastured them.

 

[Athaliamum]

Sorry, I will obviously have to say that I disagree with the above two posters. I believe their argument to be based on out of context use of scripture, therefore are not scriptually backed opinion at all. The scriptures have been used to fit the argument.

Yes, the eating or doing anything that would make a human connected with God unclean is a sin Jew or Gentile.

Lets just look at one reference used to explain it's context. The issue with the above verses is that they are written in English which for the most part is a very limiting language. It is best to look at the greek to gain a better understanding of the implication of the verses. In Acts 10:9-5 this is very important.

Acts 10:11
"And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners...

A vessel is a container. Throughout the NT, this word is often used as a reference for the human body as a container for the soul.

Peter says that the vessel was like a great sheet knit at the four corners. Greek for clarification:

mega (large) othonai (linen garment) deo (tied) at the four corners

This is very specific, is not just some giant sheet like a bed sheet - it's particular. The reference to the tied four corners is an important particular that is often missed in the quest to uncontextually prove that all food is ok by God to eat. The particular is this:

Numbers 15:38-39
Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue....

The Israelites created a specific garment in order to fulfill this command - a tallit, a prayer shawl worn by men that has fringes at the corners that are tied in specific ways during prayer.

vs12"Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. "

This verse has been seen before it pervious scripture which gives this one it's context.

“Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her. And I will give her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt. And it shall be at that day, saith YHVH, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali. For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name. And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely. And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies. I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know YHVH.”Hosea 2:16-20

These passages of Hosea are talking about the tribe of Ephraim who have been dispersed into the many nations of the world because of their idolitary, basically being made into gentiles. These people, gentiles, here have been called beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things.


Romans 1:19-25 re-establishes this understanding:
“Because that which may be known of Adonai is manifest in them; for Adonai hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew Adonai, they glorified him not as Adonai, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible Adonai into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore Adonai also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of Adonai into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.”

Thus, scripture connects these animals with people who are idolaters. Therefore Peter's vision is of idoliters dressed in a tallit (prayer shawl).

“And [Peter] saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.”
Acts 10:11-13

The word kill here is another bad english translation. The Greek word that is interpreted as kill in the King James is thusia. That word appears repeatedly translated in the Nazarean Codicil as sacrifice or offering.

Therefore a better translation would be:
"And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; sacrifice, and eat.”

It is at this point that he is told to sacrifice and eat. There is only one sacrifice in the scriptures wherein an individual (who was not a priest) was allowed to both sacrifice and eat of the meat from that sacrifice. That sacrifice is called the Zevach Shelamim.

The Zevach Shelamim is also called the Peace Offering or the Fellowship Offering. It was intended to be sacrificed and eaten by the individual who offered it and by others from the believing community. It could not be shared, however, with those who were either unclean or outside of the believing community. In such a case where the Zevach Shelamim was indeed shared with banned individuals, the offering became unclean meat.
This is when Peter objects to eating food that is unclean, in this context, it is not a reversal of God's own kosher mandate.

To put it in further context. Peter is still trying to understand his vision (which kosher-abliterating Christians think they understand straight away without much analysis) when gentiles who are God-fearers (basically in those days Torah observant Gentiles) come to the door. Context.

Later on Peter gives us the meaning of his vision.

“…Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but Adonai hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.”
Acts 10:28

To say this suddenly means that eating Kosher is no longer required is a huge, let me illiterate - huge leap and completely our of context of the passage. That's the explaination in context of just one of the above verse used as "proof" for non-kosher observance and each single one of them is being used out of context like that one is.

 

[Dave Taylor]

Funny when someone doesn't like a scripture from the New Testament, they will quickly dismiss it or explain it away, then proceed to spend paragraph after paragraph attempting to convince the reader to follow their prescribed method instead.

Again folks, there is no 'out of context' basis for dismissing the scriptures. They speak universally, and plainly enough on their own accord.

Give thanks to the Lord for the pork or crab or yak-meat that He graciously may provide you, and don't feel you are getting a demerit from Him, for "every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused".


I Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. "

Mark 7:15 "There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him"

 

[NumberOneSon]

Yes, the eating or doing anything that would make a human connected with God unclean.

The Apostles and Elders in the 1st Century already addressed this issue in Acts 15. There is nothing "out of context" about it; The only commandment given to us is to "abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled", and Paul made an amendment to that by declaring that even idol meat is acceptable depending on the conscience of the believer. Your views are at odds with the Council of Jerusalem and with Paul.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

 

[OttawaUk]

Funny when someone doesn't like a scripture from the New Testament, they will quickly dismiss it or explain it away, then proceed to spend paragraph after paragraph attempting to convince the reader to follow their prescribed method instead.

Again folks, there is no 'out of context' basis for dismissing the scriptures. They speak universally, and plainly enough on their own accord.

Give thanks to the Lord for the pork or crab or yak-meat that He graciously may provide you, and don't feel you are getting a demerit from Him, for "every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused".


I Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. "

Mark 7:15 "There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him"

Amen brother.

Why do some people insist we have to return to legalistic bondage after what our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ has done for us?

Look carefully at what Jesus is saying here: "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7:23)

These people weren't rejected because they were the redeemed who sinned more than others, they were rejected because Jesus never knew them! Furthermore, every single person walking this planet has been or is a worker of iniquity!

We're all guilty. We're all sinners. We're all lawbreakers. (Romans 3:23)

There isn't one boastful thing I'll have to say standing before the Lord - its all about Him, not me.

The difference between those being saved and those perishing is that the saved know Christ as Saviour and likewise He would know us, the rest do not know Him and are relying on something else to earn their redemption.

OU

 

[Athaliamum]

[/COLOR][/COLOR]I Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

I could very well of quoted that verse towards you. As for the last two verse, they are again out of context. A scripture without a context is a pretext, and a pretext can be used to prove anything.

OttawaUk your post shows that you have absolutely no idea about what the Torah is and what it is about. No one ever said anything about earning their way in to heaven. The simple truth is though, that you can't be united to God and deliberately continue to do things that are against him.

1 John 2:3-6
The way we can be sure we know him is if we are obeying his commands. Anyone who says, "I know him," but isn't obeying his commands is a liar - the truth is not in him. But if someone keeps doing what he says, the truly love for God has been brought to its goal in him. This is how we are sure that we are united with him. A person who claims to be continuing in union with him ought to conduct his life the way he did.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Yeshua would have followed Torah and there are not two laws - one of legalism (Moshe) and one of grace (Yeshua's). Only someone with little to no foundation in the understanding of Torah would say or understand it in this way. The Torah was given by God it never was to be observed legalisticly but with love and faith. " Moreover, his commands are not burdensome because everything which has God as its Father overcomes the world. And this is what victoriously overcomes the world: our trust."

You have yet to provide adequate explaination to the OP's question.

Isaiah 66:15-17
For - look! - Adonai will come in fire,
and his chariots will be like the whirlwind,
to rnder his anger furiously,
his rebuke with blazing fire.
For Adonai will judge all humanity
with fire and with the sword,
and those slain by Adonai will be many.

"Those who consecrate and purify themselves
in order to enter the gardens,
then follow the one who was already there (satan)
eating pig meat, reptiles and mice,
will all be destroyed together," says Adonai.

I think Isaiah, the same prophet from who's writings come most of the messiah prophecies, is pretty clear. Peter himself backs this prophecy up.

2 Peter 2:22
What has happened to them accords with the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit." Yes, 'The pig washed itself, only to wallow in the mud!"

Peter also corrrects those who would take the writings of Paul and misinterpret them and use them out of context.

2 Peter 3:15-16
And think of our Lord's patience as deliverance, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote to you, following the wisdom God gave him. Indeed, he speaks about these things in all his letters. They contain some things that are hard to understand, things which the uninstructed and unstable distort, to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

But if you would rather use scripture out of context and write to me and about me with sarcasim and bile you do nothing but show the pitfuls of your own character and understanding.

1 Peter 4:4-5
They think it strange that you don't plunge with them into the same flood of dissoluteness, and so they heap insults on you. But they will have to five an account to him whostands ready to judge the living and the dead.

 

[NumberOneSon]

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.(Acts15:5-6)”

“Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.(Acts15:19-20)”

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: (Acts15:24)”

In Christ,

Acts6:5

 

[BombShelterBob]

1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
1Ti 4:6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine,


Paul spent a good part of his ministry telling the Gentiles they didn't have to keep any part of the law of moses.

 

[StormSeeker]

No. According to the New Testament books of 1 Timothy and Matthew and Mark.

I Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ"

Matthew 15:11 "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man."

Mark 7:15 "There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him"

Careful...

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The reason for 1 Timothy 4:1 is there were Rabbis who added to the Torah additional commandments that were not commanded of God. That verse was written by one who himself kept kosher. In context- that verse is referring to those who eat kosher meat. If Paul was a teacher of Torah before and after his acceptance of Yeshua. Even Yeshua referred to those who added burdensto the Torah.

Every creature of God is indeed good- but that does not make it fit to eat. Read any medical research on the hevy metal toxicity of shell fish or the dangers of eating pork to know this. Who is anyone to sanctify what God has set aside as unfit to eat. Anyone bother to notice that pigs were not allowed to be a sacrifice? Anyone bother to notice in Genesis chapter 7 that Noach knew the difference between clean and unclean animals before Torah was given on the mount?

You reference to Matthew 15:11 has nothing to do with eating kosher. Yeshua is pointing out that we can defile ourselves by the words we speak. To say other wise is to twist the words of our master who himself did not eat pigs. And he did not command the eating of pigs after he arose from the grave. This also goes for Mark 7:15.

Why on earth does anyone think Yeshua is talking about eating unkosher- Yeshua was a JEWISH RABBI. Anyone who thinks Yeshua advocates unkosher eating is being intellectually dishonest.

The servant is not greater than the master- if the master eats kosher- the servant eats kosher- I don't care if you are a Christian Gentile or a Jewish Cowboy.

Shalom.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
1Ti 4:6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine,


Paul spent a good part of his ministry telling the Gentiles they didn't have to keep any part of the law of moses.

Paul spent his time preaching Jesus Christ and Him crucified, but he didn't let the Judaisers get a foothold in, for he had the commmendation of the Jerusalem council, where he was sent to get it settled from, when he and Barnabus and certain others were sent by the Church at Antioch for settling the matter once and for all; what the Holy Spirit decreed at the Jerusalem council through the Apostles and elders was sent back to Antioch by letter with Paul and Barnabus and the others, which letter decreed that the Gentiles were not to keep Moses' and be circumcised, but to abstain from the blood of meats and to keep themselves from fornication and from idols -because for the Jews, Moses, was read every Sabbath and they did not depart from Moses, as Paul said he did not do, either.

Act 15:6¶And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us;And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Act 15:19
Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:Act 15:20
But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.Act 15:21
For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.Act 15:22¶Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; [namely], Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:Act 15:23
And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:Act 15:24
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:Act 15:25
It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,Act 15:26
Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.Act 15:27
We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell [you] the same things by mouth.Act 15:28
For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;Act 15:29
That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.Act 15:30¶So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:Act 15:31
[Which] when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.

As a Jew, Paul never departed from 'Moses', but he was not a Judaiser and he understood the law as living oracles of the heavenly truths committed to the Jews as a schoolmaster to bring us to the end, or goal, or finish -which is christ, the MErcy seat and Strait Gate into the City of God.

 

[StormSeeker]

It was never a sin for Gentiles.

Hello? Noach was a Gentile who knew and observed kosher-

Genesis 7:1 ¶And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. 2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

I guess since he only took two of the unclean beasts- he definitely had to eat kosher while on the ark.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gen&chapter=9&verse=3&version=kjv#3Gen 9:3
Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.Gen 9:4
But flesh with the life thereof, [which is] the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

Taken in context with Genesis 7- these verses mean of every clean animal. Not eating the blood is also part of the kosher laws.

Act 10:9¶On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.Act 10:15
And the voice [spake] unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou foul***[unclean].Act 10:16
This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

Act 10:17¶Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,Act 10:19
While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.Act 10:20
Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.Act 10:21
Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what [is] the cause wherefore ye are come?...
Act 10:34¶Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:Act 10:35
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

The visions of Peter eating unclean foods was about teaching the Gentiles about Torah and Yeshua- read further after the vision- who does Peter go and meet with? I suppose it is too much to ask that context be used. The bible has always portrayed the Gentiles as beasts.

The fact is that the Church will be perfected at the first harvest of earth's sons of God [regenerated in bodies and sons of God, glorified, and dwelling in the heavenly realm with the angels], and the nation of Israel restored as vineyard keepers for the Father, to produce the fruit of sons of God for the second harvest, coming at the end of the thousand years.

The church is "perfected"- how so? The church today has nothing to show for itself. There is a church on just about every corner in the US and each day brings a new depravity. Divorce is highest among Christians. Pedophilia is highest among Catholic priests. The last time I attended church, people were sleeping with each other in the congregation and moving into apartments without being married. I used ot have so called Christian friends who would have sex in church when no one was around. The news is rife with churches accepting homosexuality. Is this the perfected part you are talking about?

Im sorry- I forgot- we are saved by grace and God will happily accept all of our filthy practices because we've got "sweet Jesus" who makes us clean- nevermind the pornography, the unkosher food, bashing the law, the divorce, etc, etc, etc.

Pardon my sarcasm- but somewhere a line has to be drawn as to what we will accept in the name of God.

Proverbs 21:2 ¶Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.

 

[StormSeeker]

Paul spent his time preaching Jesus Christ and Him crucified, but he didn't let the Judaisers get a foothold in,

I was not born with Hewbrew blood- but that is an offensive comment to make- Judiazers?

That shows what little knowledge you have- or maybe you have too much knowledge and not enough understanding.

When was the last time you met a Jew that tried to "judiaze" you? I have been to synagogues and I haven't yet met a judiazer. And where do you think you got your religion from? Christianity and Islam would'nt be today if you didn't have that Jewish book called the Bible and the Jewish savior you call Jesus.

Jews don't go out and Judiaze anybody. They don't think Gentiles can or will keep Torah. More importantly it was the Gentiles that kicked Jews out of the synagogues and placed their steeples and crosses in the name of Jesus.

How strange is it you would use the term judiaze when all of the bible is Jewish- written by Jews for Jews. It just so happens that God made a way for the Gentiles. Haven't you read where yYeshua says salvation is of the Jews? Those judiazers telling you you ought to keep Torah are your ticket to salvation. They set the example.

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Zechariah 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

I don't see anything about people coming to the church in Zechariah- do you?

 

[StormSeeker]

Funny when someone doesn't like a scripture from the New Testament, they will quickly dismiss it or explain it away, then proceed to spend paragraph after paragraph attempting to convince the reader to follow their prescribed method instead.

Again folks, there is no 'out of context' basis for dismissing the scriptures. They speak universally, and plainly enough on their own accord.

Give thanks to the Lord for the pork or crab or yak-meat that He graciously may provide you, and don't feel you are getting a demerit from Him, for "every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused".


I Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. "

Mark 7:15 "There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him"

There is an out of context basis when you consider that there is not a single man of God in the bible that ate unclean food. I have no problem with the NT- just how it gets twisted out of context by casual bible students.

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Do you know something Peter didn't?

 

[StormSeeker]

The Apostles and Elders in the 1st Century already addressed this issue in Acts 15. There is nothing "out of context" about it; The only commandment given to us is to "abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled", and Paul made an amendment to that by declaring that even idol meat is acceptable depending on the conscience of the believer. Your views are at odds with the Council of Jerusalem and with Paul.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

The council met to decide what the most pertinent laws to start with since the Gentiles did not live according to Torah. They did not want to overload them with all the laws at once. What they discussed in the council was by no means the end of what the Gentiles were to do.

 

[StormSeeker]

Amen brother.

Why do some people insist we have to return to legalistic bondage after what our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ has done for us?

Look carefully at what Jesus is saying here: "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7:23)

These people weren't rejected because they were the redeemed who sinned more than others, they were rejected because Jesus never knew them! Furthermore, every single person walking this planet has been or is a worker of iniquity!

We're all guilty. We're all sinners. We're all lawbreakers. (Romans 3:23)

There isn't one boastful thing I'll have to say standing before the Lord - its all about Him, not me.

The difference between those being saved and those perishing is that the saved know Christ as Saviour and likewise He would know us, the rest do not know Him and are relying on something else to earn their redemption.

OU

Legalistic bondage?

Someone want to explain that one to me? How is it legalistic to do what God and His son Yeshua commanded? Why is it legalistic to perform the commandments for the sake of loving God. Is there something evil and sinister about this?

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

The laws of God are for your protection. How did Yeshua defeat the Devil in the 40 days of testing? He used and adhered to Torah.

Matthew 10:24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.

What gets me is why Yeshua didn't just come out and say all the law is done away with. Why is it people are taking his and Paul's words out of context and twisting them into something they are not. But there is an abundance of Yeshua's words that show him to always advocate keeping Torah.

The use of Matthew 7:23 in this context is laughable.

Every person on this board should be fearful of how they use that thing called the Bible-

You can make it say anything you want it to.

 

[NumberOneSon]

The council met to decide what the most pertinent laws to start with since the Gentiles did not live according to Torah. They did not want to overload them with all the laws at once. What they discussed in the council was by no means the end of what the Gentiles were to do.

Absolutely unbelievable. The Council of Jerulsalem described the Pharisaic teachings to the Gentiles as a "subversion of their souls". Paul described the Pharisaic teachings as a "perversion", and "another gospel" leading the Galatians to practically "fall from grace". You however, say the Pharisaic teachings were just too much for the Gentiles to handle at that point. It's simply unbelievable how plain New Testament truth is being perverted like this.

Tell me StormSeeker, where in the NT scriptures did the Apostles and Elders reverse their stance on circumcision and the Law for the Gentiles? In what epistle did Paul change his position on circumicision and the Law for the Gentiles? Such a reversal is nowhere to be found.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

 

[Hello There]

Can a mod please lock the thread, I think it's getting heated.