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Interesting quotes from Westcott and Hort

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RadMan

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Brooke Foss Westcott (an Anglican bishop and professor at Cambridge University) and Fenton John Anthony Hort (also an ordained priest and professor at Cambridge) produced a Greek New Testament in 1881 based on the findings of Tischendorf. This Greek New Testament was the basis for the Revised Version of that same year. They also developed a theory of textual criticism which underlay their Greek New Testament and several other Greek New Testaments since (including the Nestle-Aland text).

Their interpretation is the basis of many New Testament bibles. but these two adhere to textual criticism which, in their judgement, invalidated certain passages of the bible. Textual Criticism referencing only these five sources:
Codex Vatican (B)
Codex Sinaiticus (Aleph)
Codex Alexandrian (A)
Codex Ephraemi (C)
Codex Bezae (D)
Whereas the KJB that isn't translated from the Westcott-Hort translation refences around 5000 original manuscripts.

Anyway see if you would want these men doing a Greek translation for you. Here's some of their own quotes from their own writings.

Concerning the Deity of Christ:​
"He never speaks of Himself directly as God, but the aim of His revelation was to lead men to see God in Him." (Westcott, The Gospel According to St. John, p. 297).

"(John) does not expressly affirm the identification of the Word with Jesus Christ." (Westcott, Ibid., p. 16).​
Concerning the Scriptures:​
"I reject the infallibility of Holy Scriptures overwhelmingly." (Westcott, The Life and Letters of Brook Foss Westcott, Vol. I, p.207).

"Our Bible as well as our Faith is a mere compromise." (Westcott, On the Canon of the New Testament, p. vii).

"Evangelicals seem to me perverted. . .There are, I fear, still more serious differences between us on the subject of authority, especially the authority of the Bible." (Hort, The Life and Letters of Fenton John Anthony Hort, Vol. I, p.400)​
Concerning Hell:​
"(Hell is) not the place of punishment of the guilty, (it is) the common abode of departed spirits. (Westcott, Historic Faith, pp.77-78).​
"We have no sure knowledge of future punishment, and the word eternal has a far higher meaning." (Hort, Life and Letters, Vol. I, p.149).​
Concerning Creation:​
"No one now, I suppose, holds that the first three chapters of Genesis, for example, give a literal history. I could never understand how anyone reading them with open eyes could think they did." (Westcott, cited from Which Bible?, p. 191).
"But the book which has most engaged me is Darwin. Whatever may be thought of it, it is a book that one is proud to be contemporary with..... My feeling is strong that the theory is unanswerable." (Hort, cited from Which Bible?, p. 189)
Concerning the Atonement:​
"I think I mentioned to you before Campbell's book on the Atonement, which is invaluable as far as it goes; but unluckily he knows nothing except Protestant theology." (Hort, Life and Letters, Vol. I, p. 322)
"The popular doctrine of substitution is an immoral and material counterfeit...nothing can be more unscriptural than the the limiting of Christ's bearing our sins and sufferings to His death; but indeed that is only one aspect of an almost universal heresy." (Hort to Westcott, Life and Letters, Vol. I, p. 430)
"I confess I have no repugnance to the primitive doctrine of a ransom paid to Satan. I can see no other possible form in which the doctrine of a ransom is at all tenable; anything is better than the doctrine of a ransom to the father." (Hort, The First Epistle of St. Peter 1:1-2:17, p. 77).
Concerning Man:​
"It is of course true that we can only know God through human forms, but then I think the whole Bible echoes the language of Genesis 1:27 and so assures us that human forms are divine forms." (Hort to Westcott, August 14, 1860)
"Protestants (must) unlearn the crazy horror of the idea of Priesthood." (Hort, Life and Letters, Volume II, pp. 49-51)
Concerning Roman Catholicism:​
"I wish I could see to what forgotten truth Mariolatry (the worship of the Virgin Mary) bears witness." (Westcott, Ibid. )
"I have been persuaded for many years that Mary-Worship and Jesus-Worship have very much in common." (Hort, Life and Letters, Volume II, pp. 49-51)
"The pure Romanish view seems to be nearer, and more likely to lead to the truth than the Evangelical." (Hort, Life and Letters, Vol. I, p. 77)
"I agree with you in thinking it a pity that Maurice verbally repudiates purgatory . . . the idea of purgation, cleansing by fire, seems to me inseparable from what the Bible teaches us of the Divine chastisements." (Hort, Life and Letters, Vol. II, pp. 336,337)


Concerning the Cumulative Effect of Multiple Changes to the Manuscripts:

"It is quite impossible to judge the value of what appear to be trifling alterations merely by reading them one after another. Taken together, they have often important bearings which few would think of at first. . . The difference between a picture, say of Raffaelle, and a feeble copy of it is made up of a number of trivial differences. . . We have successfully resisted being warned off dangerous ground, where the needs of revision required that it should not be shirked. . . It is, one can hardly doubt, the beginning of a new period in Church history. So far the angry objectors have reason for their astonishment." (Hort, Life and Letters, Vol.I, pp. 138,139)
 

Edial

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I think you should quote the source.

There is much war going on between KJV only and Wescott and Hortt.

I found this link that states that some of these quote were misquoted or quoted out of context.

http://www.westcotthort.com/quotes_scripture.html


Thanks,
Ed
 
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RadMan

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If avowed, semantic atheists decided to translate the Bible from Aramaic, Greek and Hebrew the Christian church as a whole world be in an uproar. There would be an angry protest and indignation Especially if it spawned as many Bible translations as these two have. Under the guise of men of Christian learning they have spawned and promoted textual criticism and their non-Christin ideas They foster their credibility under the premise that they have multiple degrees at an honored university and that they can not be questioned about their translation. Even you yourself have defended the Texus Receptus while W & H support the other 5 originals.

They sound like Darwinian theologians who reject the authority of scriptures, Biblical salvation, the reality of hell, substitutionary atonement, and make Christ a created being to be worshipped with Mary his mother, and openly admit that their "trifling alterations" with the Greek Text have begun a "new period in Church history"
????
 
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RadMan

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I think you should quote the source.

There is much war going on between KJV only and Wescott and Hortt.

I found this link that states that some of these quote were misquoted or quoted out of context.

http://www.westcotthort.com/quotes_scripture.html


Thanks,
Ed
Read it again Ed. I did quote all the sources. If you don't believe what I have posted then go find the references yourself and prove the quotes wrong. But go to the original sources and not some site that has a disclaimer......and an agenda.
 
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Edial

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Doing this from memory ... KJV came from textus Receptus.
The manuscripts that the Greek was compiled from came from much later manuscripts, (re-copies) something like 1500(?).
The copies of copies almost always had scribal additions to them.
The scribes were adding words like "Lord Jesus" to the margins of the texts. Such additions were always complimentary to Christ.
And after another re-copy of a copy, some of these comments found their way into the later manuscript.

Wescott and Hortt Greek text was compiled from manuscripts of the much earlier origin, and therefore more reliable.

I have read my share of KJV-only argument that KJV (Textus Receptus) has more references to the Deity of Christ than WH.
But these references are not found in the same texts of the earlier manuscripts.

I think this is pretty clear.

If the earlier does not have it and the later does, than the later discrepancy is an addition.

But regardless, the majority of these discrepancies are simple additions that the scribes added as their own emphasis.
This does not affect the reliability of today's translations as we know it.

Fortunately, we know a lot about manuscripts today than we did some 400-500 years ago.

Thanks,
Ed
 
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Edial

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If avowed, semantic atheists decided to translate the Bible from Aramaic, Greek and Hebrew the Christian church as a whole world be in an uproar. There would be an angry protest and indignation Especially if it spawned as many Bible translations as these two have. Under the guise of men of Christian learning they have spawned and promoted textual criticism and their non-Christin ideas They foster their credibility under the premise that they have multiple degrees at an honored university and that they can not be questioned about their translation. Even you yourself have defended the Texus Receptus while W & H support the other 5 originals.

They sound like Darwinian theologians who reject the authority of scriptures, Biblical salvation, the reality of hell, substitutionary atonement, and make Christ a created being to be worshipped with Mary his mother, and openly admit that their "trifling alterations" with the Greek Text have begun a "new period in Church history"
????
Is this addressed to me (underlined) or is this a quote from someplace?

Thanks,
Ed
 
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Edial

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Read it again Ed. I did quote all the sources. If you don't believe what I have posted then go find the references yourself and prove the quotes wrong. But go to the original sources and not some site that has a disclaimer......and an agenda.
... but that source apparently shows photocopies of letters in support of what it says ...
 
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RadMan

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Is this addressed to me (underlined) or is this a quote from someplace?

Thanks,
Ed
That was for DaRev. He has supported the Texus Receptus in the past.

Ed you might want to check your sources on what ancient manuscripts were used for W&H. Actually I posted the ones used. The Texus Receptus goes back further than that to the Apostolic age. These Ancient Versions followed the reading of the Textus Receptus. These versions include: The Peshitta Version (AD 150), The Italic Bible (AD 157), The Waldensian (AD 120 & onwards), The Gallic Bible (Southern France) (AD177), The Gothic Bible (AD 330-350), The Old Syriac Bible (AD 400), The Armenian Bible (AD 400 There are 1244 copies of this version still in existence.), The Palestinian Syriac (AD 450), The French Bible of Oliveton (AD 1535), The Czech Bible (AD 1602), The Italian Bible of Diodati (AD 1606), The Greek Orthodox Bible (Used from Apostolic times to the present day by the Greek Orthodox Church). [Bible Versions, D.B. Loughran]
 
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filosofer

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That was for DaRev. He has supported the Texus Receptus in the past.

Ed you might want to check your sources on what ancient manuscripts were used for W&H. Actually I posted the ones used. The Texus Receptus goes back further than that to the Apostolic age. These Ancient Versions followed the reading of the Textus Receptus. These versions include: The Peshitta Version (AD 150), The Italic Bible (AD 157), The Waldensian (AD 120 & onwards), The Gallic Bible (Southern France) (AD177), The Gothic Bible (AD 330-350), The Old Syriac Bible (AD 400), The Armenian Bible (AD 400 There are 1244 copies of this version still in existence.), The Palestinian Syriac (AD 450), The French Bible of Oliveton (AD 1535), The Czech Bible (AD 1602), The Italian Bible of Diodati (AD 1606), The Greek Orthodox Bible (Used from Apostolic times to the present day by the Greek Orthodox Church). [Bible Versions, D.B. Loughran]

Not quite as simple as you imply from this post.

But I am starting on another trip this morning for a while, so don't have time for at least expanding a bit. Textual criticism is not a simple field of study.



 
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DaRev

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The TR is the Greek New Testament that was compiled by Erasmus in the 16th Century. I don't recall ever "supporting" the TR. There are several much better manuscripts in existance than Erasmus' text.

Regardless of what Westcott or Hort may have written about the Biblical texts, that really has no bearing upon what the Greek manuscripts actually say. Biblical scholars have studied these manuscripts for many, many years. There are numerous manuscripts of Biblical texts in existance and they all pretty much say the same thing.

I guess I still don't get your point to this thread, Rad.
 
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RadMan

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The TR is the Greek New Testament that was compiled by Erasmus in the 16th Century. I don't recall ever "supporting" the TR. There are several much better manuscripts in existance than Erasmus' text.

Regardless of what Westcott or Hort may have written about the Biblical texts, that really has no bearing upon what the Greek manuscripts actually say. Biblical scholars have studied these manuscripts for many, many years. There are numerous manuscripts of Biblical texts in existance and they all pretty much say the same thing.

I guess I still don't get your point to this thread, Rad.
I made a few disparaging remarks about TR a couple of years ago on this forum and you defended it. You have a short memory. I made remarks that Erasmaus and Luther was at odds about the translation and that Luther wanted to translate the Bible into German in the stead of the Erasmus translation.
 
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DaRev

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I made a few disparaging remarks about TR a couple of years ago on this forum and you defended it. You have a short memory. I made remarks that Erasmaus and Luther was at odds about the translation and that Luther wanted to translate the Bible into German in the stead of the Erasmus translation. Now that I finally recognized your opinion on the TR you are "about facing" just to be contrary.

:scratch:

Find the post where I stated such. I don't recall this at all.
 
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filosofer

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I made remarks that Erasmaus and Luther was at odds about the translation and that Luther wanted to translate the Bible into German in the stead of the Erasmus translation.


Just to be clear: Erasmus did not produce a translation. Rather he provided a Greek text that eventually became the basis for the TR (90 years later). Luther used Erasmus' Greek text as the textual basis for the German translation which he produced.

 
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RadMan

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:scratch:

Find the post where I stated such. I don't recall this at all.
I didn't start this thread to point out differences between what you know or what I know. That was some years ago and I'm not going to go look for the quote. The reason behind this thread was to bring the differences between translations and why some are more marginal than others. Filo's response about textual criticism would make a good sidebar on the subject even though that wasn't my main thrust.
 
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DaRev

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I didn't start this thread to point out differences between what you know or what I know. That was some years ago and I'm not going to go look for the quote. The reason behind this thread was to bring the differences between translations and why some are more marginal than others. Filo's response about textual criticism would make a good sidebar on the subject even though that wasn't my main thrust.

You made an assertion about something that you claim I said and then called me 'contrary'. If you can't find the post, fine. Just admit it.
 
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RadMan

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You made an assertion about something that you claim I said and then called me 'contrary'. If you can't find the post, fine. Just admit it.
It wasn't that I can't find it, I'm just not going to go look for it. You'll just have to take my word for it.

Anyway---back to the OP.
 
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