• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • Christian Forums is looking to bring on new moderators to the CF Staff Team! If you have been an active member of CF for at least three months with 200 posts during that time, you're eligible to apply! This is a great way to give back to CF and keep the forums running smoothly! If you're interested, you can submit your application here!

Incest between brother and sister

Status
Not open for further replies.

Washington

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2003
5,092
358
Washington state
✟7,305.00
Faith
Agnostic
There was a program on the BBCA channel called "Brothers and Sisters in Love," which dealt with several sets of brothers and sisters who, separated at an early age, reconnect and fall in love. All couples contend that laws against incest involving adult brothers and sisters are unjust. Other than the possibility of such people creating a child with a greater chance of abnormalities, do you see any logical reason there should be a prohibition against these relationships, or that they should merit condemnation?
 
Last edited:

savvy

I always finish what I....
Jul 30, 2004
1,039
74
Memphis, TN
✟1,560.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Libertarian
I find siblings who were raised apart and fall in love later less disgusting than say, adopted siblings who do so.
I think if you develop that sort of feeling for somebody you were raised with as a brother or sister, there is something very abnormal going on. When sibling raised apart meet and either don't know they are related, or accidentally develop feelings for each other, that is still freaky but less disturbing IMO.
I don't know if it should be criminalized or not. Generally I would be worried that some sort of emotional problem or abuse was going on in a relationship between normal siblings who wanted to get married or whatever.
As for the genetic thing, I don't think it should be regulated by the government. We don't tell people with hemophilia or dwarfism or Huntington's that they can't reproduce, even though those disorders have a 50/50 chance of occurring in offspring. Genetic abnormalities in children of incestuous couples have much lower instances of occurrence.
 
Upvote 0

trunks2k

Contributor
Jan 26, 2004
11,369
3,520
42
✟277,741.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I don't see anything wrong with it. The problems might come up when it comes to reproduction, but generally genetic problems due to close relatives having children don't arise until multiple generations of that behavior.

My problem is with siblings raised together. As savvy said, there just seems like a high potential for abuse with that.
 
Upvote 0

OphidiaPhile

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2008
2,919
188
57
Northern California
✟3,947.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I don't see anything wrong with it. The problems might come up when it comes to reproduction, but generally genetic problems due to close relatives having children don't arise until multiple generations of that behavior.

My problem is with siblings raised together. As savvy said, there just seems like a high potential for abuse with that.
Actually single mutation genetic disorders can manifest withing the first generation very easily since each related person has a much higher probability of carrying a recessive trait, it is the multiple gene combination traits or spontaneously generated traits that occur through continued inbreeding.
 
Upvote 0

jayem

Naturalist
Jun 24, 2003
15,423
7,157
73
St. Louis, MO.
✟413,991.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
If the incest is associated with abuse or coercion, then that could be a crime. There may well be some pretty dysfunctional family dynamics needing intervention, but it wouldn't necessarily be a criminal matter.

Criminal laws against incest is just a reflection that it is considered taboo in our society.
 
Upvote 0

Jane_the_Bane

Gaia's godchild
Feb 11, 2004
19,359
3,426
✟175,833.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
UK-Greens
I find siblings who were raised apart and fall in love later less disgusting than say, adopted siblings who do so.
Really? Why on earth is that? Adopted siblings are not even remotely related to each other, save in legal terms.

I think if you develop that sort of feeling for somebody you were raised with as a brother or sister, there is something very abnormal going on.
If they KNOW they are no blood relations, where's the abnormal part?

When sibling raised apart meet and either don't know they are related, or accidentally develop feelings for each other, that is still freaky but less disturbing IMO.
True. But what if they were raised apart, yet KNOW that they are related when they enter a relationship?

Your objections to step-siblings developing feelings for each other are completely in line with the psychological impulses that normally keep us from developing incestuous feelings, by the way: proximity is the key to the unconscious taboo, not actual family ties. Apparently, people are less likely to fall in love with someone they grew up with than with an actual sibling whom they didn't meet until they reached adulthood.

I don't know if it should be criminalized or not. Generally I would be worried that some sort of emotional problem or abuse was going on in a relationship between normal siblings who wanted to get married or whatever.
As for the genetic thing, I don't think it should be regulated by the government. We don't tell people with hemophilia or dwarfism or Huntington's that they can't reproduce, even though those disorders have a 50/50 chance of occurring in offspring. Genetic abnormalities in children of incestuous couples have much lower instances of occurrence.
I think the taboo needs no legal backup. Most people (and I mean "most" as in "virtually all of them") don't need to be threatened with jail in order NOT to date their siblings or close family members, and the few exceptions who do won't topple society or the gene pool of the species.
 
Upvote 0

trunks2k

Contributor
Jan 26, 2004
11,369
3,520
42
✟277,741.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Really? Why on earth is that? Adopted siblings are not even remotely related to each other, save in legal terms.

Savvy's point, if I read it correctly, is that to her, the ickyness of incest doesn't have anything/much to do with genetic relation. Rather it stems from the emotional relationship.
 
Upvote 0

Washington

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2003
5,092
358
Washington state
✟7,305.00
Faith
Agnostic
Really? Why on earth is that? Adopted siblings are not even remotely related to each other, save in legal terms.

If they KNOW they are no blood relations, where's the abnormal part?

True. But what if they were raised apart, yet KNOW that they are related when they enter a relationship?

Your objections to step-siblings developing feelings for each other are completely in line with the psychological impulses that normally keep us from developing incestuous feelings, by the way: proximity is the key to the unconscious taboo, not actual family ties. Apparently, people are less likely to fall in love with someone they grew up with than with an actual sibling whom they didn't meet until they reached adulthood.


I think the taboo needs no legal backup. Most people (and I mean "most" as in "virtually all of them") don't need to be threatened with jail in order NOT to date their siblings or close family members, and the few exceptions who do won't topple society or the gene pool of the species.
Nice reply.
 
Upvote 0

keith99

sola dosis facit venenum
Jan 16, 2008
23,089
6,785
72
✟368,759.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
One 'logical' reason in the sense of writing laws. Basing it only on degree of relationship give a nice line. In a legal sense it is clean.

Raised apart is good for discussion, but not for law.

Is my first cousin OK if we were raised apart? How far away is apart?

The one exception might be married BEFORE they knew of the relationship. Thus the marriage was made in good faith and should not be annulled. Much smaller subset and it does give a firm line again.
 
Upvote 0

wanderingone

I'm not lost I'm just wandering
Jul 6, 2005
11,090
932
58
New York
✟38,279.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The taboo against marrying first cousins is a fairly new concept, IIRC.

True and its not illegal in 27 US states - although there are specific restrictions on when it is and isnt' allowed in several of the states that allow it, and I believe only one state specifically says they won't recognize any marriage between 1st cousins even if its entered into in a state where its legal.
So to answer keith's question.. yes its okay legally to marry your 1st cousin in the US.



http://www.ncsl.org/programs/cyf/cousins.htm
 
Upvote 0

wanderingone

I'm not lost I'm just wandering
Jul 6, 2005
11,090
932
58
New York
✟38,279.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I think the taboo needs no legal backup. Most people (and I mean "most" as in "virtually all of them") don't need to be threatened with jail in order NOT to date their siblings or close family members, and the few exceptions who do won't topple society or the gene pool of the species.

Good points. The few situations where siblings opt to create families make the news because they are so rare, and in all that have been in the news the last few years they are situations where the siblings were raised apart. It's just not a common thing, and people inclined to have a sexual relationship or family with a sibling apparently aren't dissuaded by the laws already in effect.

And in families where there is forced incest; rape, assault, children kept locked up in basements as sex slave, child protection and existing sexual assault law are generally harsher than incest laws.
 
Upvote 0

wanderingone

I'm not lost I'm just wandering
Jul 6, 2005
11,090
932
58
New York
✟38,279.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I struggle to get past the ewwww stage to form a proper opinion. I guess if they don't have children then I don't see anything hugely wrong.

I agree.. I can make the statement that it's none of my business or anyone else's provided there's no abuse involved, but that doesn't mean I don't think "YUCK" at the idea of it, but I think that's why it's really quite a non issue... the social incest taboo has survived particularly when it comes to sibling or parent/child situations in most cultures for a very long time. Most people are not going to view the sibling they were raised with be they blood or adopted as a potential life partner, or even a one night stand.
 
Upvote 0

Beanieboy

Senior Veteran
Jan 20, 2006
6,297
1,213
61
✟57,622.00
Faith
Christian
If you watch reruns of the Brady Bunch, when Marcia and Greg are fighting about who gets their own room moving to the attic, there might as well have been cartoon bubble hearts popping between them.

The actors were dating in real life, but it occasionally came through when playing Marcia and Greg. Even though you knew that it was a story about a man named Brady with 3 boys who married Carol and welcomes her 3 girls into one new family, Marcia and Greg simply step children with no blood relations at all, you still went, "um, Greg??? Marcia.???? Um, uh, don't they have other kids at school so you wouldn't look like you were longing to kiss your sister??"

I think most of us are repulsed, because we think of ourselves getting busy with our sibs, and it just makes you want to pluck your eyes out. You also fear that your neighbors will be like that episode of the XFiles, called Home, where the brothers had the same mother as father, who was also their brother, and they were all creepy deformed...

I often wonder about things like Sperm Banks. If a guy goes there all the time, and women use the sperm for babies, there is a chance, that his daughter may fall in love with his son.

To me, I am only concerned about the inbreeding mutants. Other than that, I read Flowers in the Attic in HS, a cheesy paperback where a mother who apparently fell in love with her brother, was disowned, but when her husband died, she returned to her rich family asking forgiveness, and asked the kids to wait until the time was right, by living in the attic. They waited for years, the mother visiting them less and less. The older boy when through puberty, as did he sister, and having no other contacts, they fell in love.

In the context, it wasn't at all icky, but more on the "what about when you have mutant babies??", and asking this about the beautiful, blond, blue, Aryan Nation kids.

I think it is fascinating to hear people, trying to illustrate that God is anti-gay, because he created Adam and Eve, and not Adam and Steve, to follow that through:
Adam and Eve, had Cain and Abel, and bunch of other kids....
And then.....

Incest.

I then ask, "did God not see that coming, or is it, as you claim, God's plan, that Eve be made for Adam, that they have kids, and then their kids breed incestuously? And if we are to follow God's plan of heterosexuality only, should we not follow through on telling your kids to marry and reproduce?

I don't really believe that, and honestly, I have a problem believing that Adam was one guy, and Eve one woman, and that is how the entire human race came to be, ignoring the Indians of the Americas who Christopher Columbus discovered...kind of....even though they were already there...

But I doubt that most Christians really get to the 3rd Generation, because of the ick factor.
 
Upvote 0

OllieFranz

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2007
5,328
351
✟31,048.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Both the "Eeewww Factor" and the Bible agree. It is not consanguinity that establishes what is wrong with incest, it's the "spitting in your own water supply" factor. The somewhat increased chance of genetic problems is just a modern excuse because the law, in order to be neat, is couched in the language of blood-relatedness.
 
Upvote 0

Washington

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2003
5,092
358
Washington state
✟7,305.00
Faith
Agnostic
Why not allow them to have kids? I mean women over 40 dont face penalties for having children.
Because the chance of producing a child with a genetic disorder is very high.

From a BBC news article.
"We need this law against incest in Germany and in the whole of Europe," said Professor Juergen Kunze, a geneticist at Berlin's Charite Hospital.

"Medical research has shown that there is a higher risk of genetic abnormalities when close relatives have a child together. When siblings have children, there is a 50% chance that the child will be disabled," he said.
source
But I think this 50% figure is a bit high.

"The inbreeding is computed as a percentage of chances for two alleles to be identical by descent. This percentage is called "inbreeding coefficient". There are several methods to compute this percentage, the two main ways are the path method and the tabular method["

"Typical inbreeding percentages are as follows:

Father/daughter - mother/son - brother/sister -> 25%
Half-brother/half-sister -> 12.5%
Uncle/niece - aunt/nephew -> 12.5%
Cousin -> 6.25%"
source
And because, "genetic disorders are normally caused if an individual carries two alleles associated with a recessive, single-gene trait."* the chance of such a genetic disorder resulting from sibling sex is far higher than normal.

*source
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.