impossible to renew unto repentance (Heb.6:3-6)

[ClementofA]

“impossible…to renew unto repentance” which some ETers take to mean they can never be saved

1. but does Heb.6:4-6 mean it is impossible for men, or for God, to renew such a one to repentance?

2. does it imply it is impossible forever, or could it be for a limited time, e.g. for this age & the next?

Re 1. above i think of the scripture which asks, is anything too difficult for the Lord? Jesus said, With man this is impossible, but with God all is possible. So i’d suggest that a possible interpretation of the Hebrews passage in harmony with UR is that it is impossible for the man himself or other men to renew him to repentance, but not impossible for God.

Even some bible commentators who do not support UR admit the Hebrews passage is not saying it is impossible for God to save them & that it is possible for Him to do so. Just that He has chosen not to, for various reasons.

In Acts 4:8 we read of a lame man who was unable to walk. It was impossible for him to walk. The same Greek word is used for “impossible” as in Hebrews 6. While it was impossible for the man to walk or cure himself of his inability to walk, it was possible with God’s help. In verses 9-10 he was healed. In the age to come when all are resurrected by the Lord will they not also be able to walk?

If God hardens a heart so he cannot let the people of Israel go, then it is impossible for him to repent (change his mind) and let them go. But if God later allows him to let them go, then it was not impossible for him to do that forever, but only while God hardened his heart.

While God hardened his heart he was not allowed or permitted to let the people go. The Hebrews 6:4-6 passage also speaks of people doing something only “if God permit” (v.3). So might those for whom it is impossible to be renewed unto repentance be that way because God does not “permit” it? Could He at some point in the future permit them again? I don’t see anything in Heb.6:4-6 that says otherwise.

The Hebrews passage paints a contrast between those who can go on to maturity “if God permits” and those who are not being permitted, as it is presently impossible for them. Why? Because God does not presently “permit” it to such as those described in the context?

Re 2. above Heb 6 has similarities to the unpardonable sin of the 4 gospels, which is not forgiven in this age or the age to come. Both passage speak of the Spirit of the Lord & the age to come. Could this gospels’ account be what the Hebrews writer had in mind? If so, then it leaves open the possibility of their repentance & pardon in the age after the one to come, since the Scripture speaks of more than one future age.

For additional perspectives on Hebrews 6:4-6, there is the following:

http://richardwaynegarganta.com/Bible Threatenings Explained.htm#9

6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, [d]since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (Heb.6:6, NASB)

[d] while

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+6&version=NASB


"That Ominous “Impossible”

"What is the plight of one who has known and experienced the lovely blessings detailed in Heb. 6:4-5, and then he defects? What is his spiritual status should he “fall away”? And “fall away” from what? From the grace that had been bestowed upon them (see Heb. 12:15; cf. Gal. 5:4).

"The answer to the question is this. “It is impossible to renew them again unto repentance.” The phrase is frightening. It sounds so bleak. It is bleak! It is an “impossible” endeavor.

"The word “impossible” derives from the Greek adunatos, literally “without power.” Note the word’s use elsewhere in this letter (Heb. 6:18; 10:4; 11:6). Any attempt to weaken the term is an exercise in futility.

"But, as our original question suggested, the passage does seem to conflict with so many other biblical texts that lavishly describe the unfathomable love and mercy of our wonderful and benevolent Maker.

"How is one to reconcile this seeming difficulty?

"The key to the solution is to be found in the following phrase. The American Standard Version renders it as follows:

" “seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.” "

"The ASV footnote has it: “the while they crucify....” The English Standard Version reads like this: “since they are crucifying once again....”

"The translators are attempting to give the English reader a hint as to the force of the original text. Here are some important grammatical facts.

"They keep on crucifying Jesus

"Both of the expressions “crucify” and “put him to open shame” are present tense participles. In Greek, the present tense has more to do with the type of action, rather than time (the latter being secondary). The present tense represents an action that is in progress, and generally, one that is sustained (see Wallace, 518).

"The “crucifying” and “putting to open shame,” therefore, represent on-going actions on the part of apostates.

"As long as ...

"It is also important to note that present participles normally express action that is contemporary with that of the main verb of the sentence (Wallace, 625), which, in this case is “renew.”

"In other words, “while they continue to crucify,” “as long as they are crucifying,” etc., the Son of God, they cannot be brought to repentance.

"Why is this the case? Because Christ is the motive for repentance! How could one possibly repent of falling away from the Christian faith, if he believes that the crucifixion of Jesus was a just sentence upon a false Messiah?

"As F. F. Bruce expressed it: “Those who repudiate the salvation procured by Christ will find none anywhere else” (149).

"Conclusion

"And so, it is not the case that Jewish Christians who abandon the faith cannot ever be saved. The tragic reality is this. They cannot be saved if they drift into a state of unbelief and remain that way!

"But, as Blackwelder observes, the temporal participles imply that “if persons guilty of such sin will cease it, and repent, they can be reclaimed” (104).

"While the passage contains a fearful warning for apostates, it does not suggest a state of utter despair."

REFERENCES
Blackwelder, Boyce W. 1958. Light From The Greek New Testament. Anderson, IN: Warner Press.
Bruce, F. F. 1990. The Epistle to the Hebrews — Revised Edition. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans.
Hagner, Donald. 1990. New International Biblical Commentary — Hebrews. Peabody, MA: Hendrickson.
Hodges, Zane. 1983. “Hebrews,” The Bible Knowledge Commentary, John Walvoord & Roy Zuck, Eds. Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.
Vine, W. E. 1952. The Epistle to the Hebrews. Grand Rapids: Zondervan.
Wallace, Daniel B. 1996. Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics. Grand Rapids: Zondervan.


https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/682-are-apostates-from-the-faith-beyond-repentance

 

[HTacianas]

“impossible…to renew unto repentance” which some ETers take to mean they can never be saved

1. but does Heb.6:4-6 mean it is impossible for men, or for God, to renew such a one to repentance?

2. does it imply it is impossible forever, or could it be for a limited time, e.g. for this age & the next?

Re 1. above i think of the scripture which asks, is anything too difficult for the Lord? Jesus said, With man this is impossible, but with God all is possible. So i’d suggest that a possible interpretation of the Hebrews passage in harmony with UR is that it is impossible for the man himself or other men to renew him to repentance, but not impossible for God.

Even some bible commentators who do not support UR admit the Hebrews passage is not saying it is impossible for God to save them & that it is possible for Him to do so. Just that He has chosen not to, for various reasons.

In Acts 4:8 we read of a lame man who was unable to walk. It was impossible for him to walk. The same Greek word is used for “impossible” as in Hebrews 6. While it was impossible for the man to walk or cure himself of his inability to walk, it was possible with God’s help. In verses 9-10 he was healed. In the age to come when all are resurrected by the Lord will they not also be able to walk?

If God hardens a heart so he cannot let the people of Israel go, then it is impossible for him to repent (change his mind) and let them go. But if God later allows him to let them go, then it was not impossible for him to do that forever, but only while God hardened his heart.

While God hardened his heart he was not allowed or permitted to let the people go. The Hebrews 6:4-6 passage also speaks of people doing something only “if God permit” (v.3). So might those for whom it is impossible to be renewed unto repentance be that way because God does not “permit” it? Could He at some point in the future permit them again? I don’t see anything in Heb.6:4-6 that says otherwise.

The Hebrews passage paints a contrast between those who can go on to maturity “if God permits” and those who are not being permitted, as it is presently impossible for them. Why? Because God does not presently “permit” it to such as those described in the context?

Re 2. above Heb 6 has similarities to the unpardonable sin of the 4 gospels, which is not forgiven in this age or the age to come. Both passage speak of the Spirit of the Lord & the age to come. Could this gospels’ account be what the Hebrews writer had in mind? If so, then it leaves open the possibility of their repentance & pardon in the age after the one to come, since the Scripture speaks of more than one future age.

For additional perspectives on Hebrews 6:4-6, there is the following:

http://richardwaynegarganta.com/Bible Threatenings Explained.htm#9

6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, [d]since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (Heb.6:6, NASB)

[d] while

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+6&version=NASB


"That Ominous “Impossible”

"What is the plight of one who has known and experienced the lovely blessings detailed in Heb. 6:4-5, and then he defects? What is his spiritual status should he “fall away”? And “fall away” from what? From the grace that had been bestowed upon them (see Heb. 12:15; cf. Gal. 5:4).

"The answer to the question is this. “It is impossible to renew them again unto repentance.” The phrase is frightening. It sounds so bleak. It is bleak! It is an “impossible” endeavor.

"The word “impossible” derives from the Greek adunatos, literally “without power.” Note the word’s use elsewhere in this letter (Heb. 6:18; 10:4; 11:6). Any attempt to weaken the term is an exercise in futility.

"But, as our original question suggested, the passage does seem to conflict with so many other biblical texts that lavishly describe the unfathomable love and mercy of our wonderful and benevolent Maker.

"How is one to reconcile this seeming difficulty?

"The key to the solution is to be found in the following phrase. The American Standard Version renders it as follows:

" “seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.” "

"The ASV footnote has it: “the while they crucify....” The English Standard Version reads like this: “since they are crucifying once again....”

"The translators are attempting to give the English reader a hint as to the force of the original text. Here are some important grammatical facts.

"They keep on crucifying Jesus

"Both of the expressions “crucify” and “put him to open shame” are present tense participles. In Greek, the present tense has more to do with the type of action, rather than time (the latter being secondary). The present tense represents an action that is in progress, and generally, one that is sustained (see Wallace, 518).

"The “crucifying” and “putting to open shame,” therefore, represent on-going actions on the part of apostates.

"As long as ...

"It is also important to note that present participles normally express action that is contemporary with that of the main verb of the sentence (Wallace, 625), which, in this case is “renew.”

"In other words, “while they continue to crucify,” “as long as they are crucifying,” etc., the Son of God, they cannot be brought to repentance.

"Why is this the case? Because Christ is the motive for repentance! How could one possibly repent of falling away from the Christian faith, if he believes that the crucifixion of Jesus was a just sentence upon a false Messiah?

"As F. F. Bruce expressed it: “Those who repudiate the salvation procured by Christ will find none anywhere else” (149).

"Conclusion

"And so, it is not the case that Jewish Christians who abandon the faith cannot ever be saved. The tragic reality is this. They cannot be saved if they drift into a state of unbelief and remain that way!

"But, as Blackwelder observes, the temporal participles imply that “if persons guilty of such sin will cease it, and repent, they can be reclaimed” (104).

"While the passage contains a fearful warning for apostates, it does not suggest a state of utter despair."

REFERENCES
Blackwelder, Boyce W. 1958. Light From The Greek New Testament. Anderson, IN: Warner Press.
Bruce, F. F. 1990. The Epistle to the Hebrews — Revised Edition. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans.
Hagner, Donald. 1990. New International Biblical Commentary — Hebrews. Peabody, MA: Hendrickson.
Hodges, Zane. 1983. “Hebrews,” The Bible Knowledge Commentary, John Walvoord & Roy Zuck, Eds. Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.
Vine, W. E. 1952. The Epistle to the Hebrews. Grand Rapids: Zondervan.
Wallace, Daniel B. 1996. Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics. Grand Rapids: Zondervan.


https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/682-are-apostates-from-the-faith-beyond-repentance

It means that it is impossible for that person to be brought to repentance. So, the plain reading -regardless of the wordsmithing by your source above- tells us that a person who falls away from the faith cannot be "saved again". Also, arguing that "the person was never really saved to begin with" doesn't hold water because the writer goes into detail when describing that "saved" person, i.e., "heavenly gift", "enlightened", etc. That is what scripture teaches. The Church teaches something else.

After the last Roman persecution, during which many, many Christians renounced their faith under torture or threat of torture, some going so far as to turn over sacred scripture to the Roman authorities to be burned, the impossibility of their being renewed once again to repentance was used by many to preclude them from repenting and returning to the Church. The Church -quite literally- set scripture aside, annulled it, to allow The Lapsed to return to the Church. And that became the tradition of the Church.

Do you prefer scripture or tradition?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

God knows who is beyond repentance. He even said some are condemned already (while on earth) because of their unbelief.
He knows perfectly.
Trust Him.

 

[Dave L]

I understand this passage in the limited atonement sense. That is, Christ died only for the elect and these will not fall away. But others who fall away, were not the elect.

So Christ would need to return to the cross to redeem them before they could repent and experience salvation. Which is impossible according to the passage.

 

[Dave G.]

The book of Hebrews, by it's very name, gives away who was being addressed within the book( The Hebrews ). And the very verses you quote are probably the most misunderstood in the whole bible because they get applied out of context.

I wonder what it is about people( I include myself) who just seem to go digging for something that will prove that for themselves the promises of Jesus Christ failed. When there is so much written about justification "In Jesus" for the gentile. It's as if we don't want to accept that, but we will dig up the obscure single verse written to someone else ( the Hebrews) and apply that willingly to ourselves just to prove we are going to hell after all, as Jesus rolls his eyes yet again...

Besides that we all can have doubt, it doesn't mean we dumped Jesus and returned fully 100% back to where we came from, be that witchcraft, or what ever your history is. Once born again the Holy Spirit is going to convict you anyway if you did try that. The real question is were you ever truly born again ? If not you never made the cut anyway. IE: He never knew you.. If you are born again you win eternally.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

It's like 'baptism', they have tasted of the heavenly gift, accepted it and are renewed. They don't need to be renewed again. They only have the need to enter in (verse 6:1) and dwell there. But instead they've fallen back to the old religion. It's impossible that a new 'baptism' of His blood can be obtained, as they have the true 'baptism' already. Repeating repentance is impossible because God's is once for all time and to try to repeat again would be on their own effort. Carry on to maturity not repeating the elementary things of which the initial repentance is once for all time.

 

[Dave G.]

It's like 'baptism', they have tasted of the heavenly gift, accepted it and are renewed. They don't need to be renewed again. They only have the need to enter in (verse 6:1) and dwell there. But instead they've fallen back to the old religion. It's impossible that a new 'baptism' of His blood can be obtained, as they have the true 'baptism' already. Repeating repentance is impossible because God's is once for all time and to try to repeat again would be on their own effort. Carry on to maturity not repeating the elementary things of which the initial repentance is once for all time.

Well put Cassia, I like that.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Well put Cassia, I like that.

Thanks Dave. I agree with what you wrote too because far, far too many christians use that as an excuse to not abide in and have fellowship with the Lord. Instead they prefer the once a year sacrifice of praise with many I'm sorry for my sins in between. A 'spark of love' does not 'a life close to the fire' baptism make.

The book of Hebrews, by it's very name, gives away who was being addressed within the book( The Hebrews ). And the very verses you quote are probably the most misunderstood in the whole bible because they get applied out of context.

I wonder what it is about people( I include myself) who just seem to go digging for something that will prove that for themselves the promises of Jesus Christ failed. When there is so much written about justification "In Jesus" for the gentile. It's as if we don't want to accept that, but we will dig up the obscure single verse written to someone else ( the Hebrews) and apply that willingly to ourselves just to prove we are going to hell after all, as Jesus rolls his eyes yet again...

Besides that we all can have doubt, it doesn't mean we dumped Jesus and returned fully 100% back to where we came from, be that witchcraft, or what ever your history is. Once born again the Holy Spirit is going to convict you anyway if you did try that. The real question is were you ever truly born again ? If not you never made the cut anyway. IE: He never knew you.. If you are born again you win eternally.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I know someone is thinking well don't we still need repentance? We need to turn to God away from sin upon revelation of that sin from God. Abiding at the throne of grace is where fellowship takes place to afford that communication. Jus saying'.

Ps God dwells in the praises of His people. Abide there.

 

[Uber Genius]

Here is an article by Stephen Cole that summarizes the four views on Heb 6:4-8 and then makes an abductive argument for one view.

https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-17-when-repentance-becomes-impossible-hebrews-64-8

 

[Dave G.]

I like to call it agreeing with God. And there is no harm in telling Him you agree with Him. We all have past baggage that was dumped at the foot of the cross when we accepted Jesus. And then years down the road some thing comes to mind from way back when. And it bugs us, just agree yes that was sin Lord.

Half the writers of the bible were murderers, all were sinners, and called righteous by God because they agreed with Him, believed Him and trusted Him.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

If there is one thing I have learnt in about 60 yrs of trial, suffering and error it is this:
Jesus didn’t just die to cover our sins, Christ lives in resurrected power available to us to overcome our sins. And for as long as we refuse to connect with that power we are goners for that duration.

 

[ClementofA]

It means that it is impossible for that person to be brought to repentance. So, the plain reading -regardless of the wordsmithing by your source above- tells us that a person who falls away from the faith cannot be "saved again".

Logically it does not necessarily follow that (1) being unable to be brought to repentance means (2) that a person cannot be saved again. Being (1) unable to be brought to repentance is not the same as saying (2) it will - never - be possible to bring them to repentance. Nowhere does Scripture say anyone will -never - repent or "never be saved".*

If they are unable to be brought to repentance because (a) God does not permit it (Heb.6:3), God may permit it at another time. King Nebuchadnezzar, while God made him insane for 7 years, was unable to be brought to repentance. But after the 7 years God restored his sanity & he was humbled, worshipped God & repented. While God hardened Pharoah's heart he couldn't soften it or let Israel go. But later he did let Israel go.

If they are unable to be brought to repentance because (b) preaching repentance to them will not succeed "while [they are] crucifying for themselves the Son of God again and holding Him up to infamy" (Heb.6:6), it then follows that they may later cease "crucifying for themselves the Son of God again and holding Him up to infamy" & find repentance again.

* never (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

"Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..." http://biblehub.com/commentaries/benson/mark/9.htm

Yet Scripture - never - uses such language. Moreover, it speaks of death being abolished, not being "for ever".

Also, arguing that "the person was never really saved to begin with" doesn't hold water because the writer goes into detail when describing that "saved" person, i.e., "heavenly gift", "enlightened", etc. That is what scripture teaches. The Church teaches something else.

I think a natural reading of Heb.6:4-6 favors the view that they were saved & lost salvation. The passage is parallel to Heb.10:26-29 which says such shall be "punished":

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/why-affirm-belief-in-hell/4967/12


Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I don't believe that Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10 are parallel at all because the one says those who knew God's grace and fell away and the other speaks of those who have trampled the Son underfoot and counted as common the act of the Holy Spirit. I believe that in 6 we can see the calvinist approach and in 10 the arminian approach. But since I'm fast losing the desire to argue anything I'll just leave you all to it.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I like to call it agreeing with God. And there is no harm in telling Him you agree with Him. We all have past baggage that was dumped at the foot of the cross when we accepted Jesus. And then years down the road some thing comes to mind from way back when. And it bugs us, just agree yes that was sin Lord.

Half the writers of the bible were murderers, all were sinners, and called righteous by God because they agreed with Him, believed Him and trusted Him.

No, they were not murderers.

Yahweh did not call them murderers.

The President of the United States, and so-called "Patriotic" citizens do not
call
soldiers murderers either.

And they were not called righteous , either, unless they had faith, true alive active faith as God says and they did as God said to do.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

No, they were not murderers.

Yahweh did not call them murderers.

The President of the United States, and so-called "Patriotic" citizens do not
call
soldiers murderers either.

And they were not called righteous , either, unless they had faith, true alive active faith as God says and they did as God said to do.

The writers of the bible are all righteous individuals. But so what. Why the antagonist reaction to something you have to add soldiers to. You seem to always miss the point to take it to something else. Just agree with God that that is not true fellowship and be at one with Him.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The writers of the bible are all righteous individuals. But so what. Why the antagonist reaction to something you have to add soldiers to. You seem to always miss the point to take it to something else. Just agree with God that that is not true fellowship and be at one with Him.

I don't know what your faith or your source of teaching is, but you are wrong again and again have made an error in judgment, or several errors.

 

[ClementofA]

I don't believe that Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10 are parallel at all because the one says those who knew God's grace and fell away and the other speaks of those who have trampled the Son underfoot and counted as common the act of the Holy Spirit. I believe that in 6 we can see the calvinist approach and in 10 the arminian approach. But since I'm fast losing the desire to argue anything I'll just leave you all to it.

If i had over 41K posts i might also be fast losing the desire to argue ;

In Heb. 6:4-8...
been enlightened,
tasted the heavenly gift
shared in the Holy Spirit,
tasted the goodness of the word of God
and the powers of the coming age
fallen away
crucifying the Son of God all over again
subjecting Him to open shame
is worthless,
close to being cursed
the end is unto burning

In Heb.10:26-29...
deliberately go on sinning
after we have received the knowledge of the truth
remains, but only a fearful expectation of judgment
and raging fire that will consume all adversaries.
deserves to be punished
who has trampled on the Son of God,
profaned the blood of the covenant that sanctified him,
and insulted the Spirit of grace?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

ok it is very similar even further than that. Sorry I’ve been feeling kinda braindead for the last while. It seems like a few thousand of those posts were just in the last little while …

Hebrews 10

26 For if we willfully persist in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy “on the testimony of two or three witnesses.” 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know the one who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 But recall those earlier days when, after you had been enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings, 33 sometimes being publicly exposed to abuse and persecution, and sometimes being partners with those so treated. 34 For you had compassion for those who were in prison, and you cheerfully accepted the plundering of your possessions, knowing that you yourselves possessed something better and more lasting. 35 Do not, therefore, abandon that confidence of yours; it brings a great reward. 36 For you need endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.


But do consider this ..


6:9 But we are persuaded of better things concerning you, beloved.....


WHY? Because of the repentance that we first have experienced at God's throne.


We find the explaination given in the previous section of Hebrews 6

1) things we don't need to relay foundations of

a) repentance from dead works

b) faith in God

c) teachings of various baptisms

d) laying on of hands

e) resurrection of the dead

f) eternal judgement


Once the foundation has been laid there is no reason to repeat the work. Instead move on to building.


2) things that cannot be done

The word (vs 4) once denotes a historical fact. The word again in 'renew themselves again' (vs 6 ) is the same Greek word used in 'not laying again the foundation' (vs 1)

In Greek the the word leaving (vs 1) has the meaning slipping or falling away. The co-ordinate conjunction 'and' (vs 4 & 5) join 4 items together


a) once been enlightened

b) have tasted of the heavenly gift

c) have become partakers of the Holy Spirit

d) have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the age to come


If one has experienced these 4 items it is impossible for that person to renew the repentance again just because that person has fallen once. It's impossible for them to crucify the Son of God again and put Him to open shame, even if that person wishes to do so. If a person falls, it doesn't mean that they have forsaken the course that they were on.

The repentance in vs 6 is the same repentance as in vs 1, which is foundational repentance. "again unto repentance' and ' laying again a foundation of repentance'

One rebirth.


3) things we should not do

Altho verses 1-3 tells us 'not to', verses 4-6 tells us that we 'cannot', and verses 7-8 tells us that we 'should not'. We shouldn't fall away again and again. Nor should we sin as tho to put the Son of god to open shame. If we do this, we will be punished. For this reason we shouldn't. Clearly this tells us that once a person sins it's incorrect to say they are no longer saved, just as it's as incorrect to say they will go unpunished.

God longs for a saved one to grow. Going back and laying again another foundation after falling is as impossible as asking your parents to re-create you because you did wrong and want to start again.


But if a person continues to do evil and engages in the items of verse 6, that person will be (a) disapproved (b) near a curse ( c) the ending is to be burned.

a) disapproved,(same as 1 Cor 9:27) being put aside as unuseful to Him. God's punishment for the believer who sins is to put them outside of glory and into darkness, so they have no share in the kingdom. (mat 25:30)


b) near a curse, feeling like a curse. neither speaking of the degree of punishment or categories, but know that punishment is and needs heeding.


c) whose end is to be burnt. (1 Cor 3:15) a person of toxic waste. only purifiable thru fire.

While on the one hand we should rejoice there are some who will be saved, but only as thru fire.


A believer must rise up from where they have fallen and press on. Repentance cannot be renewed. Doing evil is wrong and persistance in it will extract punishment.



Therefore.....



:6....we are persuaded ....of better things...which belong unto salvation...

 

[Dave G.]

No, they were not murderers.

Yahweh did not call them murderers.

The President of the United States, and so-called "Patriotic" citizens do not
call
soldiers murderers either.

And they were not called righteous , either, unless they had faith, true alive active faith as God says and they did as God said to do.

Hmmm, and Bathsheba's husband Uriah ? What happened to him ?
I can give you a link to an article describing it if you need it.

Moses, the dead guy buried in sand ?

Saul and crucified Christians ?

Incidentally Isaiah 43:25 in a nutshell says when our sins are forgiven they aren't just forgiven but forgotten, God no longer has record of them, they are "blotted out". What then is a man absent of sin but righteous ? Of course we know the flesh must die but the spirit has eternal life.