I am Israel’s father, and Ephraim is my firstborn son.

Lulav · Jul 1, 2015

How do you interpret these verses from Jeremiah 31?

This is what the Lord says:

“Sing with joy for Jacob;shout for the foremost of the nations.

Make your praises heard, and say,‘Lord, save your people, the remnant of Israel.’

8 See, I will bring them from the land of the north and gather them from the ends of the earth.

Among them will be the blind and the lame,expectant mothers and women in labor;a great throng will return.

9They will come with weeping;they will pray as I bring them back.

I will lead them beside streams of water on a level path where they will not stumble,

because I am Israel’s father, and Ephraim is my firstborn son.............

“I have surely heard Ephraim’s moaning:‘You disciplined me like an unruly calf,and I have been disciplined.

Restore me, and I will return, because you are the Lord my God.

19 After I strayed,I repented;after I came to understand,I beat my breast.I was ashamed and humiliated

because I bore the disgrace of my youth.’

20 Is not Ephraim my dear son,the child in whom I delight?

Though I often speak against him, I still remember him.Therefore my heart yearns for him;

I have great compassion for him,”

Lulav · Jul 2, 2015

In Exodus 4 we read

The L-RD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. 22"Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, "Israel is My son, My firstborn.

Israel meaning Jacob or Israel meaning all 12 tribes?

Lulav · Jul 2, 2015

As Jacob tells Joseph: "And now, your two sons who were born to you in the land of Egypt before I came to you, to Egypt, they are mine: Ephraim and Manasseh, as Reuben and Simon they shall be to me." But your offspring that have been born after them shall be yours; they shall be called by the names of their brothers in their inheritance.…

Was Jacob looking for replacements for Reuben and Simeon, but why replace with these half Egyptian boys, whose mother was the daughter of a pagan priest?

pinacled · Jul 2, 2015

Numbers 34

13 And Moses commanded the children of Israel, saying: 'This is the land wherein ye shall receive inheritance by lot, which the LORD hath commanded to give unto the nine tribes, and to the half-tribe;
יד כִּי לָקְחוּ מַטֵּה בְנֵי הָראוּבֵנִי, לְבֵית אֲבֹתָם, וּמַטֵּה בְנֵי-הַגָּדִי, לְבֵית אֲבֹתָם; וַחֲצִי מַטֵּה מְנַשֶּׁה, לָקְחוּ נַחֲלָתָם. 14 for the tribe of the children of Reuben according to their fathers' houses, and the tribe of the children of Gad according to their fathers' houses, have received, and the half-tribe of Manasseh have received, their inheritance;
טו שְׁנֵי הַמַּטּוֹת, וַחֲצִי הַמַּטֶּה: לָקְחוּ נַחֲלָתָם, מֵעֵבֶר לְיַרְדֵּן יְרֵחוֹ--קֵדְמָה מִזְרָחָה. {פ} 15 the two tribes and the half-tribe have received their inheritance beyond the Jordan at Jericho eastward, toward the sun-rising.' {P}
טז וַיְדַבֵּר יְהוָה, אֶל-מֹשֶׁה לֵּאמֹר. 16 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying:
יז אֵלֶּה שְׁמוֹת הָאֲנָשִׁים, אֲשֶׁר-יִנְחֲלוּ לָכֶם אֶת-הָאָרֶץ: אֶלְעָזָר, הַכֹּהֵן, וִיהוֹשֻׁעַ, בִּן-נוּן. 17 'These are the names of the men that shall take possession of the land for you: Eleazar the priest, and Joshua the son of Nun.
יח וְנָשִׂיא אֶחָד נָשִׂיא אֶחָד, מִמַּטֶּה--תִּקְחוּ, לִנְחֹל אֶת-הָאָרֶץ. 18 And ye shall take one prince of every tribe, to take possession of the land.
יט וְאֵלֶּה, שְׁמוֹת הָאֲנָשִׁים: לְמַטֵּה יְהוּדָה, כָּלֵב בֶּן-יְפֻנֶּה. 19 And these are the names of the men: of the tribe of Judah, Caleb the son of Jephunneh.
כ וּלְמַטֵּה בְּנֵי שִׁמְעוֹן, שְׁמוּאֵל בֶּן-עַמִּיהוּד. 20 And of the tribe of the children of Simeon, Shemuel the son of Ammihud.
כא לְמַטֵּה בִנְיָמִן, אֱלִידָד בֶּן-כִּסְלוֹן. 21 Of the tribe of Benjamin, Elidad the son of Chislon.
כב וּלְמַטֵּה בְנֵי-דָן, נָשִׂיא--בֻּקִּי, בֶּן-יָגְלִי. 22 And of the tribe of the children of Dan a prince, Bukki the son of Jogli.
כג לִבְנֵי יוֹסֵף, לְמַטֵּה בְנֵי-מְנַשֶּׁה נָשִׂיא--חַנִּיאֵל, בֶּן-אֵפֹד. 23 Of the children of Joseph: of the tribe of the children of Manasseh a prince, Hanniel the son of Ephod;
כד וּלְמַטֵּה בְנֵי-אֶפְרַיִם, נָשִׂיא--קְמוּאֵל, בֶּן-שִׁפְטָן. 24 and of the tribe of the children of Ephraim a prince, Kemuel the son of Shiphtan.
כה וּלְמַטֵּה בְנֵי-זְבוּלֻן, נָשִׂיא--אֱלִיצָפָן, בֶּן-פַּרְנָךְ. 25 And of the tribe of the children of Zebulun a prince, Eli-zaphan the son of Parnach.
כו וּלְמַטֵּה בְנֵי-יִשָּׂשכָר, נָשִׂיא--פַּלְטִיאֵל, בֶּן-עַזָּן. 26 And of the tribe of the children of Issachar a prince, Paltiel the son of Azzan.
כז וּלְמַטֵּה בְנֵי-אָשֵׁר, נָשִׂיא--אֲחִיהוּד, בֶּן-שְׁלֹמִי. 27 And of the tribe of the children of Asher a prince, Ahihud the son of Shelomi.
כח וּלְמַטֵּה בְנֵי-נַפְתָּלִי, נָשִׂיא--פְּדַהְאֵל, בֶּן-עַמִּיהוּד. 28 And of the tribe of the children of Naphtali a prince, Pedahel the son of Ammihud.
כט אֵלֶּה, אֲשֶׁר צִוָּה יְהוָה, לְנַחֵל אֶת-בְּנֵי-יִשְׂרָאֵל, בְּאֶרֶץ כְּנָעַן. {פ} 29 These are they whom the LORD commanded to divide the inheritance unto the children of Israel in the land of Canaan.'

Numbers 35
4 And the open land about the cities, which ye shall give unto the Levites, shall be from the wall of the city and outward a thousand cubits round about.
ה וּמַדֹּתֶם מִחוּץ לָעִיר, אֶת-פְּאַת-קֵדְמָה אַלְפַּיִם בָּאַמָּה וְאֶת-פְּאַת-נֶגֶב אַלְפַּיִם בָּאַמָּה וְאֶת-פְּאַת-יָם אַלְפַּיִם בָּאַמָּה וְאֵת פְּאַת צָפוֹן אַלְפַּיִם בָּאַמָּה--וְהָעִיר בַּתָּוֶךְ; זֶה יִהְיֶה לָהֶם, מִגְרְשֵׁי הֶעָרִים. 5 And ye shall measure without the city for the east side two thousand cubits, and for the south side two thousand cubits, and for the west side two thousand cubits, and for the north side two thousand cubits, the city being in the midst. This shall be to them the open land about the cities.
ו וְאֵת הֶעָרִים, אֲשֶׁר תִּתְּנוּ לַלְוִיִּם--אֵת שֵׁשׁ-עָרֵי הַמִּקְלָט, אֲשֶׁר תִּתְּנוּ לָנֻס שָׁמָּה הָרֹצֵחַ; וַעֲלֵיהֶם תִּתְּנוּ, אַרְבָּעִים וּשְׁתַּיִם עִיר. 6 And the cities which ye shall give unto the Levites, they shall be the six cities of refuge, which ye shall give for the manslayer to flee thither; and beside them ye shall give forty and two cities.

Ken Rank · Jul 6, 2015

I see the word "Ephraim" as having multiple meanings. Obviously a son and a tribe, but also a prophetic (and somewhat poetic) word used to describe Israel in the nations.... as first connected through Ephraim's blessing by Jacob. So Israel being called the first born in Exodus and Ephraim being called the first born in Jeremiah do not conflict as they are a reference to the same people in the same manner that Paul's Romans 9 reference to vessels of wrath fit for destruction and vessels of mercy fit for glory... are the same people as well. A people punished by being scattered into the nations and who were worthy of destruction, and yet the same whom He would be merciful with and bring them back (see Deut. 30:1-6).

Lulav · Jul 6, 2015

pinacled said:
Numbers 34

13 And Moses commanded the children of Israel, saying: 'This is the land wherein ye shall receive inheritance by lot, which the LORD hath commanded to give unto the nine tribes, and to the half-tribe;
יד כִּי לָקְחוּ מַטֵּה בְנֵי הָראוּבֵנִי, לְבֵית אֲבֹתָם, וּמַטֵּה בְנֵי-הַגָּדִי, לְבֵית אֲבֹתָם; וַחֲצִי מַטֵּה מְנַשֶּׁה, לָקְחוּ נַחֲלָתָם. 14 for the tribe of the children of Reuben according to their fathers' houses, and the tribe of the children of Gad according to their fathers' houses, have received, and the half-tribe of Manasseh have received, their inheritance;
טו שְׁנֵי הַמַּטּוֹת, וַחֲצִי הַמַּטֶּה: לָקְחוּ נַחֲלָתָם, מֵעֵבֶר לְיַרְדֵּן יְרֵחוֹ--קֵדְמָה מִזְרָחָה. {פ} 15 the two tribes and the half-tribe have received their inheritance beyond the Jordan at Jericho eastward, toward the sun-rising.' {P}
טז וַיְדַבֵּר יְהוָה, אֶל-מֹשֶׁה לֵּאמֹר. 16 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying:
יז אֵלֶּה שְׁמוֹת הָאֲנָשִׁים, אֲשֶׁר-יִנְחֲלוּ לָכֶם אֶת-הָאָרֶץ: אֶלְעָזָר, הַכֹּהֵן, וִיהוֹשֻׁעַ, בִּן-נוּן. 17 'These are the names of the men that shall take possession of the land for you: Eleazar the priest, and Joshua the son of Nun.
יח וְנָשִׂיא אֶחָד נָשִׂיא אֶחָד, מִמַּטֶּה--תִּקְחוּ, לִנְחֹל אֶת-הָאָרֶץ. 18 And ye shall take one prince of every tribe, to take possession of the land.
יט וְאֵלֶּה, שְׁמוֹת הָאֲנָשִׁים: לְמַטֵּה יְהוּדָה, כָּלֵב בֶּן-יְפֻנֶּה. 19 And these are the names of the men: of the tribe of Judah, Caleb the son of Jephunneh.
כ וּלְמַטֵּה בְּנֵי שִׁמְעוֹן, שְׁמוּאֵל בֶּן-עַמִּיהוּד. 20 And of the tribe of the children of Simeon, Shemuel the son of Ammihud.
כא לְמַטֵּה בִנְיָמִן, אֱלִידָד בֶּן-כִּסְלוֹן. 21 Of the tribe of Benjamin, Elidad the son of Chislon.
כב וּלְמַטֵּה בְנֵי-דָן, נָשִׂיא--בֻּקִּי, בֶּן-יָגְלִי. 22 And of the tribe of the children of Dan a prince, Bukki the son of Jogli.
כג לִבְנֵי יוֹסֵף, לְמַטֵּה בְנֵי-מְנַשֶּׁה נָשִׂיא--חַנִּיאֵל, בֶּן-אֵפֹד. 23 Of the children of Joseph: of the tribe of the children of Manasseh a prince, Hanniel the son of Ephod;
כד וּלְמַטֵּה בְנֵי-אֶפְרַיִם, נָשִׂיא--קְמוּאֵל, בֶּן-שִׁפְטָן. 24 and of the tribe of the children of Ephraim a prince, Kemuel the son of Shiphtan.
כה וּלְמַטֵּה בְנֵי-זְבוּלֻן, נָשִׂיא--אֱלִיצָפָן, בֶּן-פַּרְנָךְ. 25 And of the tribe of the children of Zebulun a prince, Eli-zaphan the son of Parnach.
כו וּלְמַטֵּה בְנֵי-יִשָּׂשכָר, נָשִׂיא--פַּלְטִיאֵל, בֶּן-עַזָּן. 26 And of the tribe of the children of Issachar a prince, Paltiel the son of Azzan.
כז וּלְמַטֵּה בְנֵי-אָשֵׁר, נָשִׂיא--אֲחִיהוּד, בֶּן-שְׁלֹמִי. 27 And of the tribe of the children of Asher a prince, Ahihud the son of Shelomi.
כח וּלְמַטֵּה בְנֵי-נַפְתָּלִי, נָשִׂיא--פְּדַהְאֵל, בֶּן-עַמִּיהוּד. 28 And of the tribe of the children of Naphtali a prince, Pedahel the son of Ammihud.
כט אֵלֶּה, אֲשֶׁר צִוָּה יְהוָה, לְנַחֵל אֶת-בְּנֵי-יִשְׂרָאֵל, בְּאֶרֶץ כְּנָעַן. {פ} 29 These are they whom the LORD commanded to divide the inheritance unto the children of Israel in the land of Canaan.'

Numbers 35
4 And the open land about the cities, which ye shall give unto the Levites, shall be from the wall of the city and outward a thousand cubits round about.
ה וּמַדֹּתֶם מִחוּץ לָעִיר, אֶת-פְּאַת-קֵדְמָה אַלְפַּיִם בָּאַמָּה וְאֶת-פְּאַת-נֶגֶב אַלְפַּיִם בָּאַמָּה וְאֶת-פְּאַת-יָם אַלְפַּיִם בָּאַמָּה וְאֵת פְּאַת צָפוֹן אַלְפַּיִם בָּאַמָּה--וְהָעִיר בַּתָּוֶךְ; זֶה יִהְיֶה לָהֶם, מִגְרְשֵׁי הֶעָרִים. 5 And ye shall measure without the city for the east side two thousand cubits, and for the south side two thousand cubits, and for the west side two thousand cubits, and for the north side two thousand cubits, the city being in the midst. This shall be to them the open land about the cities.
ו וְאֵת הֶעָרִים, אֲשֶׁר תִּתְּנוּ לַלְוִיִּם--אֵת שֵׁשׁ-עָרֵי הַמִּקְלָט, אֲשֶׁר תִּתְּנוּ לָנֻס שָׁמָּה הָרֹצֵחַ; וַעֲלֵיהֶם תִּתְּנוּ, אַרְבָּעִים וּשְׁתַּיִם עִיר. 6 And the cities which ye shall give unto the Levites, they shall be the six cities of refuge, which ye shall give for the manslayer to flee thither; and beside them ye shall give forty and two cities.

Are you posting all that to show the double portion?

Yet Jacob called Ephraim his firstborn, but Ephraim was Josephs second born.

It is strange because Mannasseh got more than double the land and on both sides of the Jordan, than Ephraim got. And Judah also had more land than Ephraim

pinacled · Jul 6, 2015

Lulav said:
Are you posting all that to show the double portion?

Yet Jacob called Ephraim his firstborn, but Ephraim was Josephs second born.

It is strange because Mannasseh got more than double the land and on both sides of the Jordan, than Ephraim got. And Judah also had more land than Ephraim

Yes, I am seeing this pattern quite often.
Going back over numbers I have found some interesting alignments.
Still studying for now.
You may remember the template I gave, But it seems to me that the double portion has to do with the 2 witnesses. Mount of Olive split, Samson taking up the post. It's all about Yeshua/Jesus. Pretty deep.
I will some times post scripture that I believe is relevant to a threads discussion . I look at fellowship as a learning and growing experience. I may not have it right or wrong but just Love the Word.

pinacled · Jul 7, 2015

Lulav said:
Are you posting all that to show the double portion?

Yet Jacob called Ephraim his firstborn, but Ephraim was Josephs second born.

It is strange because Mannasseh got more than double the land and on both sides of the Jordan, than Ephraim got. And Judah also had more land than Ephraim

Also I believe North and South have prophetic meaning to the 2 lamp post.

pinacled said:
Yes, I am seeing this pattern quite often.
Going back over numbers I have found some interesting alignments.
Still studying for now.
You may remember the template I gave, But it seems to me that the double portion has to do with the 2 witnesses. Mount of Olive split, Samson taking up the post. It's all about Yeshua/Jesus. Pretty deep.
I will some times post scripture that I believe is relevant to a threads discussion . I look at fellowship as a learning and growing experience. I may not have it right or wrong but just Love the Word.

I wonder if Numbers has anything to do with portions.

-Reuben; Elizur the son of Shedeur.
Reuben, were forty and six thousand and five hundred.
-Simeon; Shelumiel the son of Zurishaddai.
Simeon, were fifty and nine thousand and three hundred.
-Judah; Nahshon the son of Amminadab.
Judah, were threescore and fourteen thousand and six hundred.
- Issachar; Nethaneel the son of Zuar.
Issachar, were fifty and four thousand and four hundred.
-Zebulun; Eliab the son of Helon.
Zebulun, were fifty and seven thousand and four hundred.

Ephraim;
Elishama the son of Ammihud:
Ephraim, were forty thousand and five hundred.

Manasseh
; Gamaliel the son of Pedahzur.
Manasseh, were thirty and two thousand and two hundred.

-Benjamin; Abidan the son of Gideoni.
Benjamin, were thirty and five thousand and four hundred.
-Dan; Ahiezer the son of Ammishaddai.
Dan, were threescore and two thousand and seven hundred.
-Asher; Pagiel the son of Ocran.
Asher, were forty and one thousand and five hundred.
-Gad; Eliasaph the son of Deuel.
Gad, were forty and five thousand six hundred and fifty.
-Naphtali; Ahira the son of Enan.
Naphtali, were fifty and three thousand and four hundred.

Lulav · Jul 7, 2015

pinacled said:
Also I believe North and South have prophetic meaning to the 2 lamp post.

I wonder if Numbers has anything to do with portions.

Reuben; Elizur the son of Shedeur.Reuben, were forty and six thousand and five hundred. ===========46,500

Simeon; Shelumiel the son of Zurishaddai. Simeon, were fifty and nine thousand and three hundred======59,300

Judah; Nahshon the son of Amminadab.Judah, were threescore and fourteen thousand and six hundred.====74,600

Issachar; Nethaneel the son of Zuar.Issachar, were fifty and four thousand and four hundred.==========54,400

Zebulun; Eliab the son of Helon.Zebulun, were fifty and seven thousand and four hundred..============57,400

Ephraim;Elishama the son of Ammihud:Ephraim, were forty thousand and five hundred.==============40,500

Manasseh; Gamaliel the son of Pedahzur. Manasseh, were thirty and two thousand and two hundred.======32,200

Benjamin; Abidan the son of Gideoni.Benjamin, were thirty and five thousand and four hundred.=========35,400

Dan; Ahiezer the son of Ammishaddai.Dan, were threescore and two thousand and seven hundred..=======72,700

Asher; Pagiel the son of Ocran.Asher, were forty and one thousand and five hundred.===============41,500

Gad; Eliasaph the son of Deuel.Gad, were forty and five thousand six hundred and fifty..==============45,650

Naphtali; Ahira the son of Enan.Naphtali, were fifty and three thousand and four hundred.=============53,400

I've combined and written out the amounts to better examine this.

Somethings I've noticed.

They all seem to be rounded off, except for Gad, with 45,650, is that significant? could be
The second largest after Judah is Dan, who got a tiny portion in the North but also was supposed to have the portion where the Philistines lived and I don't think they ever cleared them out like they were supposed to.
The Smallest is Manasseh, the first born, which is odd because Jacob said that any children Joseph had after Jacob died were to be combined into their brothers tribes so you would think since Manasseh was first born of Jacob they would integrate there first. And odder still Manasseh got the largest portion, land-wise spanning the Jordon on both sides.

pinacled · Jul 7, 2015

Lulav said:
I've combined and written out the amounts to better examine this.

Somethings I've noticed.

They all seem to be rounded off, except for Gad, with 45,650, is that significant? could be

The second largest after Judah is Dan, who got a tiny portion in the North but also was supposed to have the portion where the Philistines lived and I don't think they ever cleared them out like they were supposed to.

The Smallest is Manasseh, the first born, which is odd because Jacob said that any children Joseph had after Jacob died were to be combined into their brothers tribes so you would think since Manasseh was first born of Jacob they would integrate there first. And odder still Manasseh got the largest portion, land-wise spanning the Jordon on both sides.

The number sequencing for Judah.
Is 3 score and 14,600.
I see 2 ways to read it.
Not sure of the intention of wording. But it is consistent.
60 (14600)
or
14660.
As with the Tabernacle.
I'll study a little more.

Thankyou for helping.

pinacled · Jul 7, 2015

Jeremiah 31
15 and I will give you shepherds according to My heart, who shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
16 And it shall come to pass, when ye are multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more: The ark of the covenant of the LORD; neither shall it come to mind; neither shall they make mention of it; neither shall they miss it; neither shall it be made any more.
17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem; neither shall they walk any more after the stubbornness of their evil heart. {S}
18 In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.'

I Keep thinking of Ephraim as water. So like water the Blessing Flows.
But then There is Manasseh the Half tribe?
Joshua 13
29 And Moses gave inheritance unto the half-tribe of Manasseh; and it was for the half-tribe of the children of Manasseh according to their families.
Lulav you mentioned Manasseh received a larger portion.
Where did you see this?

Deuteronomy 21
15 If a man have two wives, the one beloved, and the other hated, and they have borne him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the first-born son be hers that was hated;
16 then it shall be, in the day that he causeth his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved the first-born before the son of the hated, who is the first-born;
17 but he shall acknowledge the first-born, the son of the hated, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath; for he is the first-fruits of his strength, the right of the first-born is his.

These verses above remind me of Jacob and his Wives.
But most of all Yeshua/Jesus.
I still say Jesus out of sympathy. I never knew his Hebrew name and grew up only hearing Jesus.

The arrangement of Manasseh and Ephraim in Numbers seem like they overlap.
Kind of like Ephraim is the Water flowing through the Land that is Manasseh.

And consistently there is mention of the North.
Which I think is a Post(Tree)
As the South has a Post(Tree)
Ecclesiastes. 11
1 Cast thy bread upon the waters, for thou shalt find it after many days.
ב תֶּן-חֵלֶק לְשִׁבְעָה, וְגַם לִשְׁמוֹנָה: כִּי לֹא תֵדַע, מַה-יִּהְיֶה רָעָה עַל-הָאָרֶץ. 2 Divide a portion into seven, yea, even into eight; for thou knowest not what evil shall be upon the earth.
ג אִם-יִמָּלְאוּ הֶעָבִים גֶּשֶׁם עַל-הָאָרֶץ יָרִיקוּ, וְאִם-יִפּוֹל עֵץ בַּדָּרוֹם וְאִם בַּצָּפוֹן--מְקוֹם שֶׁיִּפּוֹל הָעֵץ, שָׁם יְהוּא. 3 If the clouds be full of rain, they empty themselves upon the earth; and if a tree fall in the south, or in the north, in the place where the tree falleth, there shall it be.
ד שֹׁמֵר רוּחַ, לֹא יִזְרָע; וְרֹאֶה בֶעָבִים, לֹא יִקְצוֹר. 4 He that observeth the wind shall not sow; and he that regardeth the clouds shall not reap.
ה כַּאֲשֶׁר אֵינְךָ יוֹדֵעַ מַה-דֶּרֶךְ הָרוּחַ, כַּעֲצָמִים בְּבֶטֶן הַמְּלֵאָה: כָּכָה, לֹא תֵדַע אֶת-מַעֲשֵׂה הָאֱלֹהִים, אֲשֶׁר יַעֲשֶׂה, אֶת-הַכֹּל. 5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the wind, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child; even so thou knowest not the work of God who doeth all things.
ו בַּבֹּקֶר זְרַע אֶת-זַרְעֶךָ, וְלָעֶרֶב אַל-תַּנַּח יָדֶךָ: כִּי אֵינְךָ יוֹדֵעַ אֵי זֶה יִכְשָׁר, הֲזֶה אוֹ-זֶה, וְאִם-שְׁנֵיהֶם כְּאֶחָד, טוֹבִים. 6 In the morning sow thy seed, and in the evening withhold not thy hand; for thou knowest not which shall prosper, whether this or that, or whether they both shall be alike good.
ז וּמָתוֹק, הָאוֹר; וְטוֹב לַעֵינַיִם, לִרְאוֹת אֶת-הַשָּׁמֶשׁ. 7 And the light is sweet, and a pleasant thing it is for the eyes to behold the sun.

JeffTheLearner · Jul 8, 2015

I see no other assigned tribes in scripture ...we see Assyria, and Egypt as kingdoms of Yah, yet outside of Israel. What happens to all those gentiles who are Messiah's? I think that ethnicity may not be a 100% requirement of being a member of an assigned tribe. Many are graphted into those tribes.

Lulav · Jul 8, 2015

pinacled said:
The number sequencing for Judah.
Is 3 score and 14,600.
I see 2 ways to read it.
Not sure of the intention of wording. But it is consistent.
60 (14600)
or
14660.
As with the Tabernacle.
I'll study a little more.

Thankyou for helping.

I'm not sure I am following you, the 3 score is from old English way of counting. It just depends on which version you read

New International Version
The number from the tribe of Judah was 74,600.
King James 2000 Bible
Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Judah, were threescore and fourteen thousand and six hundred.
Jubilee Bible 2000
those that were numbered of them, of the tribe of Judah, were seventy-four thousand six hundred.

The actual order in the Hebrew is 4+70,000+600

Lulav · Jul 8, 2015

pinacled said:
'snip'
I Keep thinking of Ephraim as water. So like water the Blessing Flows.
But then There is Manasseh the Half tribe?
Joshua 13
29 And Moses gave inheritance unto the half-tribe of Manasseh; and it was for the half-tribe of the children of Manasseh according to their families.
Lulav you mentioned Manasseh received a larger portion.
Where did you see this?

Note Manasseh on the West in Green and on the East in Yellow, most maps show different shapes but approx the same amount of land which is large.

pinacled · Jul 8, 2015

Lulav said:
I'm not sure I am following you, the 3 score is from old English way of counting. It just depends on which version you read

New International Version
The number from the tribe of Judah was 74,600.
King James 2000 Bible
Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Judah, were threescore and fourteen thousand and six hundred.
Jubilee Bible 2000
those that were numbered of them, of the tribe of Judah, were seventy-four thousand six hundred.

The actual order in the Hebrew is 4+70,000+600

Where did you get the Hebrew order?
This makes more sense to me.

Lulav · Jul 8, 2015

pinacled said:
Where did you get the Hebrew order?
This makes more sense to me.

From a Hebrew Bible.

אַרְבָּעָה וְשִׁבְעִים אֶלֶף, וְשֵׁשׁ מֵאוֹת

pinacled · Jul 10, 2015

Ephraim;
Elishama the son of Ammihud:
God Hears

40500
-Reuben; Elizur the son of Shedeur.
6/40000/500
-Simeon; Shelumiel the son of Zurishaddai.
9/50000/300
-Judah; Nahshon the son of Amminadab.
4/70000//600
- Issachar; Nethaneel the son of Zuar.
4/50000/400
-Zebulun; Eliab the son of Helon.
7/50000/400
---------------
30/300000/2700
332,700

Manasseh
; Gamaliel the son of Pedahzur.
a male given name: from Hebrew, meaning “the Lord is my reward.”.

2/30000/200
-Benjamin; Abidan the son of Gideoni.
5/30000/400
-Dan; Ahiezer the son of Ammishaddai.
2/60000/700
-Asher; Pagiel the son of Ocran.
1/40000/500
-Gad; Eliasaph the son of Deuel.
5/40000/650
-Naphtali; Ahira the son of Enan.
3/50000/400
----------------
18/250000/2850
270850

There was something from Ezekiel that struck me.
14 though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.
Job- 4 come to his mourning.
Daniel -4 separated from babylons king.
Noah?

visionary · Jul 11, 2015

pinacled said:
There was something from Ezekiel that struck me.
14 though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.
Job- 4 come to his mourning.
Daniel -4 separated from babylons king.
Noah?

They all were delivered by their righteousness.
Job through his many afflictions remained faithful.
Daniel through his life standard remaining righteous in a god forsaken land
Noah obedient at a time of "evil continually" living faithful though the whole world mocked his message.

pinacled · Jul 11, 2015

visionary said:
They all were delivered by their righteousness.
Job through his many afflictions remained faithful.
Daniel through his life standard remaining righteous in a god forsaken land
Noah obedient at a time of "evil continually" living faithful though the whole world mocked his message.

I see the principles also.
But lately the patterns have me curious. Its a practice or exercise when looking for order.
Its a learning process for me.
For instance. 10 days caught my attention in Daniel.
And so I wondered if this was Trumpets to Atonement. 10 days?
And also I noticed this in Ezekiel that was amazing to me.
3 that bare witness on Earth came to mind.
Ezekiel 16 King James Version (KJV)
Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,
3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite.
4 And as for thy nativity, in the day thou wast born thy navel was not cut, neither wast thou washed in water to supple thee; thou wast not salted at all, nor swaddled at all.
5 None eye pitied thee, to do any of these unto thee, to have compassion upon thee; but thou wast cast out in the open field, to the lothing of thy person, in the day that thou wast born.
6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.
7 I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare.
8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord God, and thou becamest mine.

9 Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil.

pinacled · Jul 11, 2015

visionary said:
They all were delivered by their righteousness.
Job through his many afflictions remained faithful.
Daniel through his life standard remaining righteous in a god forsaken land
Noah obedient at a time of "evil continually" living faithful though the whole world mocked his message.

I thought Job and Daniel were lamp post on either side of Noah.

I am Israel’s father, and Ephraim is my firstborn son.

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