How old was Mary when she gave birth to Christ?

[tonychanyt]

Matthew 1:

18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit.

Christianity.com:

we are not told Mary’s age, yet we are told she was a virgin and was pledged to be married to Joseph. During this time in history, Jewish girls would have been betrothed (engaged) to their husbands as early as the age of 12-years-old. Scholars believe Mary would have been somewhere between 12-16 years old when she had Jesus

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

I agree with your reference on Mary, but you're skipping the equally interesting question of how old Joseph was when he betrothed Mary. The sources from Church history have fascinating clues.

 

[tonychanyt]

I agree with your reference on Mary, but you're skipping the equally interesting question of how old Joseph was when he betrothed Mary. The sources from Church history have fascinating clues.

Good point.

See How old was Joseph when he married Mary?

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

Good point.

See How old was Joseph when he married Mary?

The info bits from Church history we have take on quite a different view than the estimates in that thread; Google is your friend.

My personal estimate is that Joseph was a widow who then was quite a bit older than Mary.

 

[The Righterzpen]

I read both threads on "How old was Joseph" and this one "How old was Mary when Jesus was born."

A couple of things to consider when we are asking these questions:
1. Biology - as it applies to literal physical maturation.
2. Anthropology - as it applies to societies and the development of civilizations.

Anthropology:
According to general cultural practices about marriage (which crosses multiple societies, subgroups, cultures and civilizations in all eras of history). Unless the groom was royalty of some sort; men were not considered "marriage material" until they were financially stable enough to support a family. Which for most men translates to somewhere between 20 and 25 years old.

An "adult male" through the course of history has generally been considered from about 18 years old on. Not that fellows between 16 and 18 can't be emotionally / psychologically mature beyond their expectation; but there is allowance made for understanding that men under 20 aren't even fully physically grown yet. Biology has well established that humans can grow until they are 21. That's more common with men than woman. (Males enter puberty later than females and this likely is what plays this part in the differences in rates of growth between teenage girls and boys.) A man is more likely to get physically taller and gain weight in body mass past 18 years old than a woman is.

Now, in societies that had standing armies: (The Roman Empire was one. And it's not until the mid 18th century do we start to see standing armies in Europe.) A young man could generally join the army at 16. That was true for Rome and it was true for 18th century Europe. For all armies though; all soldiers between 16 and 20 years old were put in what were called "light infantry" units. Light infantry units were part of larger legions (Rome) or regiments (18th century term). Light infantry soldiers had less equipment they were expected to carry and lighter weapons. This is because they were usually smaller than their fully grown counterparts. Once they hit about 20 years old; they'd go to "legionnaire company" (Rome) or "hat company" (18th century).

Interestingly, the way armies prior to the 20th century were arranged; (industrialization and mechanized warfare changed this) armies had "camp followers". These camp followers were civilians and often times families of soldiers. Part of the responsibility for the camp followers were to secure supplies for the army. This could be a variety of things; including food sources (purchasing animals from farms for food); finding metal smithing facilities (to manufacture or repair weapons parts) and fabric for clothing. Armies traveled with people (soldiers themselves included) who had multiple skill sets. One of the skill sets the armies taught the civilian camp followers was how to fight. So yes, it was rather common prior to the 20th century to have female combatants on battlefields along with the formally recruited soldiers.

Rome actually provided weapons and body armor designed for women and children camp followers to be able to protect themselves and the encampment if the majority of the soldiers were some place else. Armies also left soldiers in camp too; but the men left behind usually weren't of the top ability to fight. They were usually recovering from injuries or illness, or they were older. For colonial armies; women and young people were provided with light infantry gear.

In the Roman army; you joined the army for life. If you made it to 65; you officially retired from the army. In colonial armies; the average enlistment was 10 years; but the majority of soldiers were part of the army apparatus their entire lives. (They'd become camp followers once they were too old to fight. Armies were also self propagating societies. Sons usually became soldiers who married daughters of other soldiers.

Now why do I bring this up about armies? (Because it shows that societies acknowledged certain realities about the developmental stages of human life.)

We see this in Scripture too. One had to be at least 20 to be in the army (Numbers 1:1-3) and priests in the temple had to be at least 25 (Numbers 8:24-26) years old to serve. In the vast majority of cultures; 18 was the age of you were considered an adult.

Biology:
Now the Hebrew language has multiple words for the different phases of life. Like we have "infant", "toddler", "child", "adolescent", "young adult" and "legal adult". Hebrew has similar words. In Hebrew though, those words aren't "age defined" they are "developmentally defined". This accounts for the understanding that not everyone is on the same timeline developmentally. (Not everyone starts puberty at the same age. Some children can walk early and some can't. Some develop language faster than others.) This is all driven by neurological brain development stuff.

Now in Hebrew; what age was considered an adult? We get some clues from various passages in the Bible.

1. No one over 20 entered the promised land. 20 was the "cut off" for who was considered "pre legal adult". (Numbers 14:29)

2. For census purposes; anyone who was under 20 was counted in the household of their parents. (Numbers 1:2-3)

3. All men who were married; in the first year of their marriage they were exempt from military service. (Deuteronomy 24:5) And since a male had to be 20 years or more to go to war; by default, he'd have to be 20 years old to get married.

Thus entered in the Hebrew words for "man" and "woman". Genesis 2:24. We have "man" and "woman". The Hebrew word for "woman" is an extended version of the same word used for "man". So if "man" meant someone over 20 years old. "Woman" also meant someone over 20 years old.

Betrothal, Marriage and Biology:
Now here's a little detail about human development that not a lot of people know. Prior to the 20th century, the average age of menstruation was 17. Today, I think it's 11? (In industrialized countries.) Interestingly though, the age of menopause hasn't changed. That still averages women about 51 years old. Puberty takes roughly 2.5 years for females. And boys generally lag behind girls about 18 months to 2 years in starting puberty. So if prior to the 20th century; the average girl didn't start puberty until about 15 years old. The average boy would be almost 17.

Also, in the OT, a woman wasn't considered marriage consummation eligible until she could bear children. Menstruation comes at the end of female puberty. So if she's averaging 17 years old at the onset of menstruation; that most likely would have been the point the wedding planning would have commenced. Even today; "engagement to wedding ceremony" is 6 months to a year. So Mary was most likely 18 when Jesus was conceived.

Now in developing countries where they eat only locally grown food (not processed western diet) we still see this. People start puberty later. There's a couple of factors here. One is diet; and the other is food supply. Biologically, a child whose calorie intake is marginally adequate; those calories will go to brain development before they go to body development. This is why children in poor countries are generally smaller (of comparable age) than children in wealthy countries.

Now fast forward from OT laws on census and military age to the NT and 12 year old Jesus runs off to the temple. His parents "freak out" and go find him. The result is Jesus goes home with them and "grows in wisdom and stature". "Stature" here means physical size. And going back to Jesus's birth and his parents offering of birds; we know Joseph wasn't a rich guy. Thus Jesus would not have been a "high caloric intake child" due to fluctuations in food supply.

There's an interesting verse in Psalm 22:9 that is likely to have certain application to "food insecurity" and God sustaining Jesus from not starving to death through different phases of his life. (Thee's a very practical reason why historically children were not weened until they were 3 years old.) So at 12; Jesus probably would have been about the size of a modern American 8 or 9 year old. So thus the reason his parents "freaked out" was Jerusalem being a large city that just had this influx of foreigners; he would have been at high risk of becoming a human trafficking victim. (Clearly Jesus hadn't started puberty yet.)

Now fast forward to the wedding of Canna in Galilee; and we can get an idea of how old Jesus was when Joseph died. Now in that passage; it says Jesus's mother "was in attendance". This doesn't mean that she was simply invited to the wedding; she was one of the people responsible for putting it on. (She was an "attendant" to the wedding.) And she tells Jesus that the groom's family ran out of wine. Jesus's response is basically: "Mom, what does that have anything to do with me?" (It wasn't that family's financial responsibility to provide wine.) Consequently, Jesus turns water into wine. (Why, because they aren't mere guests to a friend's wedding.) So, who was the bride? (The bride would have been Jesus's youngest sister.) (Now I know this is going to ruffle the feathers of Roman Catholics who believe Mary was a perpetual virgin; but clearly in Scripture, she had other children.)

So how old is Jesus? This is the beginning of his ministry and he'd be almost 37 years old. Jesus was 6 months shy of 40 years old when he died. How do we know this? Jesus was crucified in 33 AD. We know this because that is the only year of all the possibilities where passover fell between Thursday sundown and Friday sundown. He was crucified on Friday.

So when was Jesus born? We know Jesus was 2 when Herod the Great tried to kill him. (All the male children in Bethlehem who were under two years old were slaughtered.) Joseph Mary and Jesus go to Egypt. Herod the Great dies in 4 BC. We know this from Roman historical records. So Jesus is at least 2 years old in 4 BC. And considering it took them time to get to Egypt; Jesus is probably closer to 3 years old in 4 BC. So the most likely year of his birth would have been 7 BC. 7 BC was also a jubilee year and he likely was born during the feast of tabernacles. (God will tabernacle among them.) So 7 BC to 33 AD is 40 years. But because Jesus was most likely born in the fall and died in the spring; he wasn't yet 40. (This jives with "40 years in the wilderness".)

So if Jesus is 36 / 37 years old at this wedding and the sister is a minimum of 18 years old. And we know Joseph had to be around long enough for the sister to be conceived! It's most probable that Joseph would have died some time between Jesus's 17th to 20th birthday. It's most likely Joseph died in this time frame because once Jesus turned 20 he would have been expected to get married. But since he now has automatic mom and children he's now financially responsible for; mom either gets remarried or eldest son takes care of family. Well we know Jesus never got married so "choice #2" is the obvious outcome. (There are theological reasons Jesus never got married; but that's another issue.) And this is likely why his ministry didn't start until after this youngest sister was married. Note the only person he's responsible for at that point is his mother. This is why he tells mom and John at the crucifixion "Here's your son / here's your mother." And John takes care of mom.

So here we come back to the question of this thread. Pulling together all of this information (Anthropology, Hebrew words and Jewish law) Mary would have been 19 or 20 years old when Jesus was born. Joseph would have most likely been somewhere between 20 and 25 years old. Mary would have been close to 60 when Jesus died. Joseph being a laborer (who was most likely a stone mason) would have been in his mid 40s when he died. Assuming he was likely badly injured / killed in a "work related" accident. It's not uncommon for men in that era; particularly who did manual labor, to die in their 40's and 50's.

So, complex answer that takes into account many factors; but this is most likely closest to the truth based on all the evidence we have.

Here's a reference page on Hebrew words and OT law:

Why Age 20 is the Minimum Age for Marriage - EliYah Ministries

Many people today are getting married too young. While some believe that in bible times, the menstrual cycle determined the age for marriage, scripture actually teaches that one is not eligible for marriage until age 20.

eliyah.com

 

[tonychanyt]

Mary would have been 19 or 20 years old when Jesus was born

Let proposition P1 = Mary was 19 to 20 years old when Jesus was born.

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you place on P1?

 

[The Righterzpen]

Let proposition P1 = Mary was 19 to 20 years old when Jesus was born.

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you place on P1?

Are you asking me that question?

I'd say 9 to 10.

 

[tonychanyt]

Are you asking me that question?

I'd say 9 to 10.

Let proposition P1 = Mary was 19 to 20 years old when Jesus was born.
P2 = Mary was not 19 to 20 years old when Jesus was born.

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you place on P1 and P2? Please be precise. We may bet on them

 

[The Righterzpen]

Let proposition P1 = Mary was 19 to 20 years old when Jesus was born.
P2 = Mary was not 19 to 20 years old when Jesus was born.

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you place on P1 and P2? Please be precise. We may bet on them

Maybe Mary was older than 20!

 

[tonychanyt]

Maybe Mary was older than 20!

Let proposition P1 = Mary was at least 19 years old when Jesus was born.
P2 = Mary was under 19 years old when Jesus was born.

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you place on P1 and P2? Please be precise. We may bet on them

 

[The Righterzpen]

Let proposition P1 = Mary was at least 19 years old when Jesus was born.
P2 = Mary was under 19 years old when Jesus was born.

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you place on P1 and P2? Please be precise. We may bet on them

I think I'm missing the joke here? Unless you're just trying to be a troll?
I gave you an answer.

 

[Diamond72]

P2 = Mary was under 19 years old when Jesus was born.

Mary was 12 years old. She was raised in the temple. All the other girls were excited to leave the temple and get married. But no Mary, she had made a lifetime commitment to God. This presented a real problem for the Priests in the church, or Rabbi or whatever they called them. They picked out potential husbands and they put their staff on the alter. Joseph was the staff that budded. A perfect solution because then Mary could remain a perpetual virgin.

While the infancy gospels contain stories about the birth and childhood of Jesus and Mary, they are not considered to meet the criteria for inclusion in the official biblical canon. The Church's decision to exclude these texts from the canon is based on factors such as their late composition, lack of apostolic authorship, and the presence of legendary or imaginative elements.

 

[tonychanyt]

Mary was 12 years old. She was raised in the temple.

reference? any kind of reference?

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

Mary was 12 years old. She was raised in the temple. All the other girls were excited to leave the temple and get married. But no Mary, she had made a lifetime commitment to God. This presented a real problem for the Priests in the church, or Rabbi or whatever they called them. They picked out potential husbands and they put their staff on the alter. Joseph was the staff that budded. A perfect solution because then Mary could remain a perpetual virgin.

While the infancy gospels contain stories about the birth and childhood of Jesus and Mary, they are not considered to meet the criteria for inclusion in the official biblical canon. The Church's decision to exclude these texts from the canon is based on factors such as their late composition, lack of apostolic authorship, and the presence of legendary or imaginative elements.

Yup, from the Protoevangelium of James, chapter 8 and 9 covers the story of Mary and Joseph.

CHAPTER 8
(1) And her parents went down, marveling at and praising and glorifying the Lord God
because the child had not turned back to look at them.
(2) While Mary was in the temple of the Lord, she was fed like a dove and received food from the hand of an angel.
(3) When she turned twelve, a group of priests took counsel together, saying, "Look,
Mary has been in the temple of the Lord twelve years. (4) What should we do about her
now, so that she does not defile the sanctuary of the Lord our God?" (5) And they said to
the high priest, "You have stood at the altar of the Lord. Go in and pray about her. And if
the Lord God reveals anything to you, we will do it."
(6) And the priest went in taking the vestment with twelve bells into the holy of holies
and prayed about her. Suddenly, an angel of the Lord stood before him, saying,
"Zachariah, Zachariah, depart from here and gather the widowers of the people and let
each one carry a staff. (8) And the one whom the Lord God points out with a sign, she
will be his wife." (9) So the heralds went out to the whole surrounding area of Judea and
the trumpet of the Lord rang out and all the men rushed in.
CHAPTER 9
(1) Throwing down his ax, Joseph went out to meet them. (2) And after they had gathered
together with their rods, they went to the high priest. (3) After receiving everyone's rod,
the high priest went into the temple and prayed. (4) When he was finished with the
prayer, he took the rods and went out and gave them to each man, (5) but there was no
sign among them. Finally, Joseph took his rod. (6) Suddenly, a dove came out of the rod
and stood on Joseph's head. (7) And the high priest said, "Joseph! Joseph! You have been
chosen by lot to take the virgin into your own keeping."
(8) And Joseph replied, saying, "I have sons and am old, while she is young. I will not be
ridiculed among the children of Israel."
(9) And the high priest said, "Joseph, fear the Lord your God and remember what God
did to Dathan and Abiron and Kore, how the earth split open and swallowed them
because of their rebellion. (10) Now fear God, Joseph, so that these things do not happen
in your house."
(11) Fearing God, Joseph took her into his own possession. (12) And he said to her,
"Mary, I took you from the temple of the Lord and now I bring you into my house. I am
going out to build houses, but I will come back to you. The Lord will protect you."

https://www.asu.edu/courses/rel376/total-readings/james.pdf

 

[Diamond72]

(2) While Mary was in the temple of the Lord, she was fed like a dove and received food from the hand of an angel.

When we were in San Diago a bird gave a fish to my wife. Dropped it at her feet. I have a photo of her with that bird standing a few feet from her. There may be a difference between seabirds and doves, but they are very closely related.

 

[jamiec]

Mary was 12 years old. She was raised in the temple. All the other girls were excited to leave the temple and get married. But no Mary, she had made a lifetime commitment to God. This presented a real problem for the Priests in the church, or Rabbi or whatever they called them. They picked out potential husbands and they put their staff on the alter. Joseph was the staff that budded. A perfect solution because then Mary could remain a perpetual virgin.

While the infancy gospels contain stories about the birth and childhood of Jesus and Mary, they are not considered to meet the criteria for inclusion in the official biblical canon. The Church's decision to exclude these texts from the canon is based on factors such as their late composition, lack of apostolic authorship, and the presence of legendary or imaginative elements.

I would like some kind of reliable evidence that girls could be raised in the Jerusalem Temple during the Late Second Temple period.

It sounds fishy to me - like something based only on apocryphal writings.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Students of some of the strange or different schools around the world use different ways to distract from the message of Jesus. It is seen in many different categories and sections and threads by many different visitors. They are sometimes immersed in their school/ maybe upbringing/ and don't know another way to interact or discuss some things. It could be a religious school or group, or any number of other schools using quite a variety of 'methods' to accomplish their own goals, whatever those are.

Well the person I'd made that comment to; appeared to me to only be a troll who had no functional contribution to this thread. Usually people who have theories or come from a school of thought; will at least explain their position.

 

[Diamond72]

I would like some kind of reliable evidence that girls could be raised in the Jerusalem Temple during the Late Second Temple period.

It sounds fishy to me - like something based only on apocryphal writings.

1. The Infancy Gospel of James: This is an early Christian text that provides additional details about the birth and childhood of Mary. It includes stories about Mary's parents, her early life in the temple, and her betrothal to Joseph.
2. The Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew: This text expands on the traditional nativity stories found in the canonical Gospels. It includes stories about Mary and Joseph's journey to Bethlehem, the birth of Jesus, and their flight to Egypt.
3. The Protevangelium of James: This text, also known as the Protoevangelium of James, is another apocryphal gospel that includes details about Mary's parents, her early life, and her betrothal to Joseph.
4. The Gospel of the Nativity of Mary: This apocryphal gospel provides an account of Mary's birth and early life.

It's important to recognize that these texts are not considered part of the biblical canon by most Christian denominations and are often viewed as historically and theologically significant rather than as authoritative sources of doctrine. The stories and details they contain vary widely and are subject to interpretation.
In general, the primary and most widely accepted sources of information about Mary and Joseph within Christianity are the Gospels of Matthew and Luke in the New Testament.

Do you have a verse in the Bible to show that the aprocryphal writings are not true?

The Infancy Gospel of James, also known as the Protoevangelium of James, provides some details about the age of Mary when she married Joseph. According to this apocryphal text, Mary is presented as a young girl who was consecrated to the temple at a very early age, often depicted as around the age of three. Her childhood in the temple is described in the text.

When it came time to find a suitable guardian for Mary, the priests drew lots to determine who would take care of her. Joseph was chosen, and according to the text, he was an older widower. Mary is often described as being around the age of 12 when she was entrusted to Joseph's care, and they married.

The story is James was 12 when his mom died and Mary agreed to take care of James for Joseph in exchange for Joseph raising Mary's son Jesus. I would love to see the first time Eve meet with Mary. That would be amazing.

Genesis 3:15 New International Version​

15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”.

Joseph was around when Jesus was 12 but we do not read about him at all in the Bible after that. Luke was the one that talked to Mary to find out her story. It is interesting that Jesus asked John to take care of Mary. Why not James if that was really her son? Even the Bible says you are worse than a infidel if a child does not take are of their parents. 1 Timothy 5 8 "Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."

 

[The Righterzpen]

Joseph was around when Jesus was 12 but we do not read about him at all in the Bible after that. Luke was the one that talked to Mary to find out her story. It is interesting that Jesus asked John to take care of Mary. Why not James if that was really her son? Even the Bible says you are worse than a infidel if a child does not take are of their parents. 1 Timothy 5 8 "Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."

At the point of the crucifixion (when Jesus told John to take mom) James was not a believer yet. And at the point James became a believer; it's possible that momma Mary had died. I don't know how long post Pentecost James became a believer; all that we do know is that Paul had met him after Paul's own conversion.

Do you have a verse in the Bible to show that the aprocryphal writings are not true?

Galatians 1:19 Paul specifically calls James "the Lord's brother".
Matthew 13:55-56 names Mary and four other brothers: James, Jose, Simon and Judas. Verse 56 also states there are sisters. Then in verse 57 Jesus says: "And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house."

Thus we know by these verses that Mary had at least 6 other kids besides Jesus. The 6 mentioned in the gospels were the ones still alive. If there had been other kids who died in infancy or childhood; we aren't told about them.

We also know from Matthew 2 that Joseph, Mary and Jesus were the only ones named who fled to Egypt. Thus if these (at least 6) other kids were Joseph's and not Mary's; where are they in the beginning of Matthew? Clearly by Matthew 13 they are all part of the same household as they are named as Jesus's siblings. Nothing in any of these passages suggests Joseph had children from a prior marriage.

 

[RileyG]

I always assumed she was a young teen because people didn't (necessarily) live long back then.