Hebrews 9:27 & 28

[brmicke]

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

In this thread I am proposing an alternate translation of the words "and after this the Judgment".

I am proposing this because the translation is just as accurate when stated this way.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and this amid judgment:

I am basing this on the translation of the word "Meta".

3326. meta meta, met-ah'

a primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly, denoting accompaniment; "amid" (local or causal);

If this translation is used the verse and the entire notion of a judgment after death is replaced by a judgment that occurs during this lifetime, as is mentioned in 1 Cor 11:32.

1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

This then makes sense when compared to Jesus death of verse 28, in which there is no mention of His being judged after his death on the cross. Showing that this interpretation of Jesus death for our sins is more logical as it follows and is being compared to mankinds judgment.

It also clarifies the following verse and opens up many interesting avenues of doctrinal interpretation --

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

This suggests that the judgment seat of Christ is during this life and that we reap the consequences of our behavior in the flesh body.

brian

 

[Van]

Certainly "meta" is often used to indicate an association, as in "with" or "among." But it is also used to denote the sequence of the association, after this, then that. And the translators believe that is how meta is being used in this verse (Hebrews 9:27). I know nothing of Greek grammar, but the form of verb "dying" and the form of the pronoun "this" is consistent with constructions using "meta" to denote sequence.

But aside from the above, which I have not verified with a Greek expert, there are other verses that indicate we face judgment after death. For example, look at Hebrews 6:2. Note that after the lost die, there is a "resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment."

So the issue is not whether or not judgment falls on the living, because it certainly does, but rather in addition to these judgments, there is one or more judgments upon us after we physically die. According to the author of Hebrews this is an "elementary teaching" of the gospel. You see you need salvation from God's judgment against the ungodly, or else you will face eternal punishment for your misdeeds.

Next, of course Jesus is not judged after death, He is our sinless savior. The idea is that if we are saved from the coming judgment, then when Christ appears, He will take all the saved without reference to our sins, you see we avoid the judgment that those who died in unbelief face. That is the idea of verse 28, or so it seems to me.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Actually Jesus was judged by God after his death, in a manner of speaking.

Revelation 5 describes the account. Jesus stands before God's throne, and is 'judged' worthy to open the seals. He presents as "a lamb slain". This is the fulfillment of the wave sheaf offering, or the 'acceptance' of the spring barley harvest: the firstfruits, by God. The green sheaf of barley was Christ, representing the first of the firstfruits.

This happened between the time he was resurrected and when he communed with the disciples before he ascended for the last time some forty days later. That's why he told Mary Magdelene to "touch me not" (don't cling to me) as he had not yet "ascended". Such instruction was not given later to the disciples, and he interacted with them closely and freely.

It makes sense that he would be formally approved by God in a judgement ritual after his sacrificial death.

owg

 

[heymikey80]

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and this amid judgment:

I am basing this on the translation of the word "Meta".

3326. meta meta, met-ah'

a primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly, denoting accompaniment; "amid" (local or causal);

Honestly, I do appreciate your attempt to comprehend how Greek is constructed. But there's a grammatical reason that prevents this understanding. Prepositions in Greek modify nouns differently, depending on the case of the noun.

This is only rarely done in English, but it's very frequent in Greek -- lemme see if I can construct an example in English.

"The person beside me is the wife."

"The person beside mine is the wife."

You may see how, depending on the case of "me" (accusative or genitive) means something different. "Mine" expects some other person intervening, while "me" just means "me".

Well, Greek does this with almost every preposition. And for what it's worth, I understand this is almost mind-bending. Greek prepositions do not "overlap" with English prepositions very well in translation. So I understand the confusion here -- I still remember having that confusion.

The Greek preposition "meta" means "among" or "with", when the noun is genitive. All well and good.

But in Heb 9:27, the noun is not genitive. It's in the accusative case. In that case, "meta" consistently means "after" in time, or physically "following afterward".

 

[brmicke]

Hey Mikey 80 - You seem to understand this better than I do - what are your qualifications along these lines - are you a teacher? When you say "meta consistantly means ..." are you saying that it always means after when used inthe accusative?

If this is the case and it is "always" translated as after - then could the verse be stated this way --

Number 2 ---- It is appointed for man to die once after judgment.

I cling to this understanding that the judgement occurs in this life and not after death for many reasons - some of which I stated in the first post.

if you do have experience in the greek language - as it appears - could you tell me if there is an order to the wording specified in the greek that would make the interpretation Numbered 2, inaccurate?

 

[brmicke]

old wise guy - I mean no disrespect - however I have determined for my part - that I will base my doctrinal understanding on straightforward statements and not on parables.

The reason being that Jesus Himself said in matthew 13:10-14 that parables are used specifically to mislead unbelievers.

n Explanation
Matt 13:10. And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"
11. And He answered and said to them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.

It takes much maturity and giftedness to interpret a parable - and along these lines I personally believe that speaking in parables is the same thing as speaking in tongues - thus the interpretation or explanation of a message in tongues or parable would be a gift from God.

For those not specifically gifted to understand parables - the straightforward statements must be adhered to and it would not be fair in my estimation, for God to say one thing in the straightforward statements and another thing in parables.

So to summerize - I feel that the straightforward statements in the Bible contain the same information as the parables. The parables are simply included to hide the truths of the bible from unbelievers.

By the way - how can you be a "newbie" and have 2206 posts?

 

[heymikey80]

Hey Mikey 80 - You seem to understand this better than I do - what are your qualifications along these lines - are you a teacher? When you say "meta consistantly means ..." are you saying that it always means after when used inthe accusative?

I'm not a Greek teacher. I've taken Greek classes. I like linguistics, my family has a history in it.

If this is the case and it is "always" translated as after - then could the verse be stated this way --
Number 2 ---- It is appointed for man to die once after judgment.

Uh, I would take a look at an interlinear to see what this text will allow.

It essentially says, woodenly (each Greek word is in the text below without spacing) --

it's-reserved to-the men once to-die, but after this [is] judgment.
​

"this" exists in the Greek text. "This" can't refer directly to "judgment", because they're in different genders. Sentences of state ("is" sentences in English) often omit the verb, which is why the "is" is often implied into the sentence.

verses 27 & 28 have some incidental parallel constructions, but I can't tell if that helps or hurts what you're trying to achieve.

I'm unsure how much would need to flex to get judgment before death. You'd have to say "this" isn't the appointment of men immediately prior, or that "judgment" isn't what is "after this". I'm unsure either can really carry very well with this sentence.

But consider 9:28 as a parallel event. It seems to be that :28 would be the path for Christians to receive salvation instead of judgment.

Is that what you're struggling with? Christians that seem appointed to judgment by 9:27? If so 9:28 would alleviate that concern.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

old wise guy - I mean no disrespect - however I have determined for my part - that I will base my doctrinal understanding on straightforward statements and not on parables.

The reason being that Jesus Himself said in matthew 13:10-14 that parables are used specifically to mislead unbelievers.

n Explanation
Matt 13:10. And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"
11. And He answered and said to them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.

It takes much maturity and giftedness to interpret a parable - and along these lines I personally believe that speaking in parables is the same thing as speaking in tongues - thus the interpretation or explanation of a message in tongues or parable would be a gift from God.

For those not specifically gifted to understand parables - the straightforward statements must be adhered to and it would not be fair in my estimation, for God to say one thing in the straightforward statements and another thing in parables.

So to summerize - I feel that the straightforward statements in the Bible contain the same information as the parables. The parables are simply included to hide the truths of the bible from unbelievers.

By the way - how can you be a "newbie" and have 2206 posts?

What do you consider to be a parable in my comments.

I just haven't changed my 'newbie' status. I probably should.

owg

 

[brmicke]

OWG - I consider the mysterious symbolism mentioned in or really anything that is obviously not real to be information expressed in a parable - As you know The bible says that Jesus expressed everything in parables and Paul spoke in tongues more than all the believers.

Mt 13:34 All these things spake Jesus in parables unto the multitudes; and without a parable spake he nothing unto them:
(ASV)

1Co 14:18 I thank God, I speak with tongues more than you all:

Re 5:6 ¶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

The verse mentioned above tells me without question that this is a parable and that the information is intended to hide spiritual truths from unbelievers (and novice believers as well) as Matt 13:14 says.

I say unlearned believers also may not understand a mystery expressed in Tongues or parables because Tongues is said to not be readily understood by unlearned "believers" as the following verse suggests.

That is why Paul woould rather speak to be understood in church rather than speak a message in tongues.

1Co 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

If you are really interested in my proof texts for this refer to my webpage --

http://www.angelfire/ab7/brmicke

1Co 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

I did'nt know we could access the "newbie" status etc. - i thought it might be a function reserved for the webmasters.

 

[brmicke]

As far as what you said Mikey I am going to print out your response and look it over as I go through my chores today - as I have time. Thanks in advance for your helping me with these two verses.

Brian

 

[Benoni]

How do these "saviours" judge the fleshly man, Esau? To answer this, we need to know what the word "judgment" means. In the New Testament, the word used is "Krisis", which we have changed to "Crisis". In English, it means "a critical period of time, a decisive moment, turning point, deciding time." In Greek, it means "a separating, choosing, deciding, determining, judging, trial, judgment."
In the New Testament, the word judgment (Krisis) is used to denote the deciding time, trial, or probation of man. This time of judgment is spoken of in scripture in such a way as to indicate that it is given to man as a blessing and a favor. It is shown as a cause for great rejoicing and thanksgiving. In Psalm 96, all nature and people are told to exult and rejoice "Before the Lord, for He cometh to judge the world. He shall judge the world with righteousness and the people with his truth."
Judgment time as a period of great rejoicing is in striking contrast to the orthodox view of a time of horror and dread! It would almost seem we were reading from a different Bible. No — it is the same Bible, but it is "the good tidings of great joy" that the angels said "shall be unto all people." These good tidings have been obscured by the traditions of men and clouded over by carnal reasonings. As a result, we have been taught that only a remnant would be saved and the remainder of mankind would suffer the tortures of an everlasting hell.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

brmicke,


Here is probably the most important discourse by Jesus regarding parables:


Matthew 13:


1The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

9Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

17For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

So are you saying that I am of the them spoken of by Jesus; not only unlearned, but an unbeliever as well (your terms)?

owg

Yes, the webmasters, or whoever is in charge will have to make any changes.

 

[brmicke]

No you are not one of them (unbelievers), but weather or not you understand or are unlearned about any specific explanation as it relates to a specific parable is not known to me.

So I choose to base my understandings on straightforward statements from the bible. Instead of opinions regardless of weather it is my opinion or your opinion about the explanation of a specific parable.

I do not know which is the correct interpretation of a parable unless God reveals it to me. I do know about straightforward statements however.


The parables are not for believers so why does the church insist on obtaining its doctrine from them? Parables or messages in Tongues are employed by teachers to hide the truth from unbelievers or christians who are unlearned.

I am sure you remember that Jesus would not say certain things to the disciples because they could not bear them -- Jesus withheld truth so as not to harm believers. It would be a large assumption to say on any persons behalf that Jesus was not keeping a portion of the truth from them to protect them.

Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

The straightforward statements are for believers as is mentioned - Jesus explained these things to the disciples (you would be included in this group) when they were alone. But in crowds that were comprised of both believers and unbelievers He spoke in parables to hide the truth from unbelievers.

The gift of explaining parables is just that -- a gift. Now Jesus could explain them and Paul could and so can you if you are so gifted. But I would rather base my understandings on straightford biblical statements than on another persons explanation.

 

[brmicke]

Lets not deviate too far from the point - Is the judgment after physical death according to Heb 9:27 or before physical death?

I really need to know this.

thanks for any help you may provide.

Brian

 

[brmicke]

Mikey - I am concerned about this for several reasons. Similar to other doctrines - I can prove through scripture very thouroughly that judgement occurs during this life time. For Instance is 1 Cor 11:32 - there is an example of corrective judgment where there has to be a period of time after the inflicting of judgment and during that period of time is necessary for the person to learn from the discipline.

Also - in 2 Cr 5:10.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

It seems to me that this verse shows that we recieve judgment for the things we do while we are in the body - weather good or bad.

Now - I know that this would mean that the Judgment seat of Christ is during this lifetime. I feel that this is the case.

Now this involves other scriptures and doctrinal stances - so please although I mention them - lets not make them the focus weather we agree of on them or not. - When discussing things like this it is so very easy to get off the point. --- Thanks

The bible says that to be absent from the Body tis to be present with the Lord - so if we have no body when we are with the Lord - we cannot recieve judgement while in the body - 2 Cor 5:10.

So you see - If I can prove that judgment occurs when we are in this life - and may be able to prove that judgment occurs after death in only one place in scripture - there needs to be more study for me to form a doctrinal position. SInce you have linguistic understanding - please help me with this if it is not to much trouble. as far as I can tell there is no judgement after death - and I base this on - Romans 2:12.

Ro 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law;
(ASV)



Brian

 

[brmicke]

benoni - As you knwo I disagree with you on many positions - however I think I agree with you on this - most Christians percieve judgement as a negative thing. I do not think it is because as Romans 2:12 says if we are not judged and remain uncorrected - we perish.

Brian

 

[heymikey80]

Lets not deviate too far from the point - Is the judgment after physical death according to Heb 9:27 or before physical death?

I really need to know this.

thanks for any help you may provide.

Brian

I think the basic issue here is that God may grant us a judgment at any time to mitigate some particular offense, but that's very much at His discretion. It's not unusual to find judgments occurring during a person's lifetime. But ... not everything is soteriology.

There is a day on which God will judge the world, and on that day He gathers the dead and resurrects them.

 

[Beasley]

Thought I'd throw this passage in for consideration

10According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.
11For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
14If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.


Seems like 1 Cor 11:32 is dealing with the believer being disciplined in time for sin while the above passage deals with the judgment seat or bema seat of Christ for believers, which is different than the great white throne judgment for unbelievers.

Beasley

 

[brmicke]

Thanks for your help HeyMikey80 and beasley.

Brian

 

[Benoni]

Psalm 119:156 says, "Great are Thy tender mercies O Lord. Quicken me according to Thy judgements." Tradition has taught us that God's judgements are punitive, a way that God gets even with us for what we have done against Him. But the scripture tells us that His judgements bring us into life. Verse 175 says, "Let my soul live and it shall praise Thee; and let Thy judgements help me." The judgements of God are always ultimately helpful.

God has even transformed the judgement of death into that which works for our benefit. He took our greatest enemy death and changed it into a friend by using the death process as the means of releasing us from the power of sin that He might bring us into His more-abundant life. Through the death process God destroys all the negative kingdom by causing us to die out to it. This is absolutely marvelous! Colossians 2:14 says that Christ nailed to His cross all the judgements that are against us. And this is so all-inclusive that 11 Corinthians 5:19 says, "That God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them." God has removed all the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them." God has removed all the "against" Judgments and replaced them with judgements that are only for us. This is beautiful! Romans 8:31 says, "If God be for us, who can be against us?" Because God is "for us" He controls the actions of those who would be against us and works them into good.

Even though the judgements of God will be against the evil works that man has done, those judgements will still result in man's salvation. 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 says, "Every man's work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be save; yet so as by fire." No matter what a man has done, his ultimate salvation is secure; but his reward will depend on how much of his works stand up to the test of God's judgemental fire. The fire will judge the motivation behind the work and the faithfulness of the worker. The results of the work may not appear spectacular, but God is more interested in the quality of the worker than He is in their apparent accomplishments. We should endeavor to do everything that we do out of love for God and a desire to please Him. If we do this then our works will stand the test of the fire, even if they did not appear to be successful, and even if they appeared to cause more harm than good; for our reward will depend on our motivation and faithfulness, not on our apparent accomplishments.

Did you was the dishes today with love for the Lord and as doing it unto Him? Do you approach the nitty-gritty of everyday living, right down where the tire meets the road, with love for the Lord and as doing it unto Him? This is the attitude and the faithfulness that will stand the judgment of fire. And the reward will be that God will grant us greater abilities to be even more useful, as well as increased capacity to enjoy and share His glory. I see so many of God's people complain and gripe over the smallest of things. It is God who has placed us in this world of sin and death to change us; to overcome; praise God for His judgements.