Have the locusts from Rev 9 already been loosed?

[Derf]

I remember over 20 years ago reading the Left Behind series up until the Locusts of Rev 9 were discussed, and that's where I lost interest. I applaud LaHaye and Jenkins for holding to as strict a literal interpretation as possible, but for some reason it was too much in that instance.

Now I'm wondering if we've seen at least the beginning of the 1st Woe. I'll explain.

[Rev 9:1 KJV] And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Stars aren't "hims". This star must be a non-literal reference. This sets the stage for the rest of the passage to be non-literal.

[Rev 9:2 KJV] And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Smoke is often associated with judgment, probably because it affects more than the subjects of judgment. At the least it stings everyone's eyes where it reaches, and it reaches far into the air, vertically and horizontally.

[Rev 9:3 KJV] And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

We immediately see that these are not normal locusts, but have to be compared with the power of scorpions. Imagine if it were described the other way, and scorpions were given wings and made to swarm as locusts. Ouch!

[Rev 9:4 KJV] And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

The locusts don't even eat like normal locusts, but are only after the unbelievers. This is probably the hardest thing for my suggestion to fit.

[Rev 9:5 KJV] And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment [was] as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Why 5 months?
And what is the torment of a scorpion like?
Here's a description from emedicinehealth.com:
Severe signs and symptoms of a sting from a scorpion include numbness throughout the body, difficulty swallowing, a thick tongue, blurred vision, roving eye movements, seizures, salivation, and difficulty breathing.

[Rev 9:6 KJV] And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Does this mean they can't even kill themselves? Or does it somehow allude to a condition where they are kept alive medically? Or something else?

[Rev 9:7 KJV] And the shapes of the locusts [were] like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads [were] as it were crowns like gold, and their faces [were] as the faces of men.

Here's where I think it might apply to today. "Horses prepared into battle" seem to associate with military might and speed. "Crowns" suggest governmental authority. "Faces of men" may go with the next verse's "hair of women" to indicate something akin to the transgender movement, which is being pushed strongly in our military.

[Rev 9:8 KJV] And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as [the teeth] of lions.

If the main point of these locusts is to wield the power of scorpions, why do they need "teeth of lions"? Because it indicates the authority of rulers.

[Rev 9:9 KJV] And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings [was] as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

"Breastplates of iron" mean they have been made impervious to attack, even possibly political or spiritual attack, while the sound of the wings like chariots and horses running to battle reiterates the speed and power of military action and enforcement.

[Rev 9:10 KJV] And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power [was] to hurt men five months.
[Rev 9:11 KJV] And they had a king over them, [which is] the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue [is] Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath [his] name Apollyon.

The main thing these creatures try to accomplish is the name of their leader, "destruction".

So here's my theory--the last few years are the time period spoken of. The stings are the covid vaccine, which is said to give immunity, but only for a short time before needing a booster (about 5 months, perhaps). Our military is one of the driving forced of the vaccine, along with the government. The same military and government has been pushing the transgender garbage, whose poster boy is "Rachel" Levine (man's face, woman's hair).

The same government was of no use against the Antifa and BLM riots, but allowed them to perpetrate their destruction.

The scorpion sting symptoms are reminiscent of either Covid or the vaccine (myocarditis, blood clots, strokes, and general loss of immunity to many diseases). Mostly people aren't dying from the vaccine, though some are, and the supposed purpose is to keep people from dying. Many who are refusing to take the vaccine are believers (which may account for the text that says the believers are sealed against the locusts).

What do you think?

 

[Douggg]

Walking through the scriptures of what leads to what....

The first woe (the flesh tormenting locust) - the 5th trumpet plague - does not happen until after the other four trumpets.

And the first woe - the 5th trumpet plague - does not begin until Satan is cast down to earth (from the second heaven - the cosmos) in the middle of the 7 year 70th week.

....and the 7year 70th week does not begin until right after the Gog/Magog event.

......and the Gog/Magog event does not begin until after the little horn person emerges over the ten leaders of the fourth kingdom (Daniel 7) - the Roman Empire. In the end time, the EU.

The emergence of the little horn person will be the visible key to all those other events. The resurrection/rapture could happen anytime - which is the blessed hope we are all looking for.

 

[Jamdoc]

I remember over 20 years ago reading the Left Behind series up until the Locusts of Rev 9 were discussed, and that's where I lost interest. I applaud LaHaye and Jenkins for holding to as strict a literal interpretation as possible, but for some reason it was too much in that instance.

Now I'm wondering if we've seen at least the beginning of the 1st Woe. I'll explain.

[Rev 9:1 KJV] And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Stars aren't "hims". This star must be a non-literal reference. This sets the stage for the rest of the passage to be non-literal.

[Rev 9:2 KJV] And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Smoke is often associated with judgment, probably because it affects more than the subjects of judgment. At the least it stings everyone's eyes where it reaches, and it reaches far into the air, vertically and horizontally.

[Rev 9:3 KJV] And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

We immediately see that these are not normal locusts, but have to be compared with the power of scorpions. Imagine if it were described the other way, and scorpions were given wings and made to swarm as locusts. Ouch!

[Rev 9:4 KJV] And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

The locusts don't even eat like normal locusts, but are only after the unbelievers. This is probably the hardest thing for my suggestion to fit.

[Rev 9:5 KJV] And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment [was] as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Why 5 months?
And what is the torment of a scorpion like?
Here's a description from emedicinehealth.com:
Severe signs and symptoms of a sting from a scorpion include numbness throughout the body, difficulty swallowing, a thick tongue, blurred vision, roving eye movements, seizures, salivation, and difficulty breathing.

[Rev 9:6 KJV] And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Does this mean they can't even kill themselves? Or does it somehow allude to a condition where they are kept alive medically? Or something else?

[Rev 9:7 KJV] And the shapes of the locusts [were] like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads [were] as it were crowns like gold, and their faces [were] as the faces of men.

Here's where I think it might apply to today. "Horses prepared into battle" seem to associate with military might and speed. "Crowns" suggest governmental authority. "Faces of men" may go with the next verse's "hair of women" to indicate something akin to the transgender movement, which is being pushed strongly in our military.

[Rev 9:8 KJV] And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as [the teeth] of lions.

If the main point of these locusts is to wield the power of scorpions, why do they need "teeth of lions"? Because it indicates the authority of rulers.

[Rev 9:9 KJV] And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings [was] as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

"Breastplates of iron" mean they have been made impervious to attack, even possibly political or spiritual attack, while the sound of the wings like chariots and horses running to battle reiterates the speed and power of military action and enforcement.

[Rev 9:10 KJV] And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power [was] to hurt men five months.
[Rev 9:11 KJV] And they had a king over them, [which is] the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue [is] Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath [his] name Apollyon.

The main thing these creatures try to accomplish is the name of their leader, "destruction".

So here's my theory--the last few years are the time period spoken of. The stings are the covid vaccine, which is said to give immunity, but only for a short time before needing a booster (about 5 months, perhaps). Our military is one of the driving forced of the vaccine, along with the government. The same military and government has been pushing the transgender garbage, whose poster boy is "Rachel" Levine (man's face, woman's hair).

View attachment 326385
The same government was of no use against the Antifa and BLM riots, but allowed them to perpetrate their destruction.

The scorpion sting symptoms are reminiscent of either Covid or the vaccine (myocarditis, blood clots, strokes, and general loss of immunity to many diseases). Mostly people aren't dying from the vaccine, though some are, and the supposed purpose is to keep people from dying. Many who are refusing to take the vaccine are believers (which may account for the text that says the believers are sealed against the locusts).

What do you think?

I don't think any of the trumpets have been blown yet, until the 6th seal, which is a very overt event that has the entire world going for bunkers and they know that the wrath of God comes next.... none of the wrath of God judgements, the trumpets and bowls play out.



The only thing that could have happened up until this point is, seals, and that's debatable, obviously some people have partial preterist interpretations and think the seals were opened up throughout history, I believe they are things opened closer to the 70th week although I do believe the first 4 could be opened prior to the 70th week, leading into it would be my guess.

 

[Jamdoc]

We are already in the 6th Seal:

Even already in the midst of the Civil War foretold:

Yeah no.
6th seal comes immediately after the Great Tribulation and is the day of the Lord.
According to Jesus, in Matthew 24, it would be the generation that sees the fig tree bring forth new leaves that sees everything up to the end.
I could be wrong on the fig tree being Israel, specifically Jerusalem being retaken in 1967, but it was certainly not the civil war.

We still live in a Satan ruled sin cursed world, the end has not come yet.

 

[YahuahSaves]

I remember over 20 years ago reading the Left Behind series up until the Locusts of Rev 9 were discussed, and that's where I lost interest. I applaud LaHaye and Jenkins for holding to as strict a literal interpretation as possible, but for some reason it was too much in that instance.

Now I'm wondering if we've seen at least the beginning of the 1st Woe. I'll explain.

"Many Pastors teach that when the end times 5th trumpet of Revelation 9 sounds, a demonic horde will be unleashed to cause torment and suffering amongst the peoples of the world. In the previous study you learned that the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th Trumpets represented our Lord continuing to pour out His Wrath on the Roman Empire, by sending the armies of the Goths, Vandals, Huns and Heruli, to attack them."

Revelation 9:1-2, “And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.”

"Just as Lucifer fell from heaven, a falling star is a great person or leader, who executes evil plans from the bottomless pit of Satan.

The 5th Trumpet represents the rise of the Islamic Empire, which God used to execute judgment against 1/3rd of the Roman Empire."

Revelation 9:7-8, “And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions”

“The horses prepared unto battle” simply represents that they used horses in battle.

“The crowns of gold” represent the gold and yellow saffron colored turbans that they wore.

“Their faces were as the faces of men“ means that they had beards, which is a sign of their masculinity. Romans and other races shaved their faces, so this would have stood out to John.

“They had hair as the hair of women“ The Muslims had long hair in those days. If they were preparing for battle, they would tie it up under the turbans.

“And their teeth were as the teeth of lions“ means that they were savage and ferocious.

The teeth of the Arabs were as the teeth of a lion. “Break their teeth in their mouth, O God! Break out the fangs of the young lions, O LORD!” Psalm 58:6

Revelation 9:9, “And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle”

“And they had breastplates of iron“ means the Arab army wore chain-mail as they went into battle. The sounds of their wings represents the rapid conquests of the Saracens, as they moved over countries as swiftly as locust, their many horses causing a great sound.

Revelation 9:10, “And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.”

“They had stings in their tail” indicates their unique ability to fight rearwards, shooting arrows backwards, while riding on horseback.

Revelation 9:11, “And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.”

Their king was Mohammed. Abaddon and Apollyon are words that essentially mean destroyer or one who exterminates, which aptly described the Arabs. SOURCE

 

[YahuahSaves]

I don't think any of the trumpets have been blown yet,

"Trumpets are symbols employed to indicate war against the enemy.

1st Trumpet – Hail can point to war in Bible symbolism, and Elohim caused the Goths, who were led by Alaric, to move in the direction in which literal hail came (north to south). They attacked the Roman Empire from 400-410 AD, in Greece, Gaul and Spain. Then 300,000 Goths invaded Italy. The fire represents the ‘scorched earth’ policy in their invasions of enemy territory.

2nd Trumpet – A mountain in Biblical symbolism represents a great nation and a sea is a large group of people. It represents Elohim sending the Vandals, led by Genseric, to attack the coast-lands of the Roman territory of the Mediterranean and all the islands from 425-470 AD, leaving bloodshed and confusion in their wake.

3rd Trumpet – A star in prophecy symbolizes a leader. Elohim sent this great burning star, Attila the king of the Huns, who was called “the scourge of God.” Attila and his 800,000 man army rose quickly and flashed across the land in 451 AD, and desolated the Italian Alps, which is the source of the Danube, Rhine and Po rivers. The dead bodies in the rivers made the water ‘bitter’ (wormwood).

4th Trumpet – The sun, moon and stars, can symbolize leadership structure. Here it represents Elohim using Odoacer and the Heruli, a branch of the Goths, to cause the downfall of Roman leadership when Romulus Augustalus, the last Western Roman Emperor (the sun) of the West was captured in 476 AD. The hierarchy of Roman leaders (moon and stars) would have lost power too.

The 5th Trumpet represents Elohim using the Arabian (Mohammedan) army against the Roman Empire from 632-782 AD, which is 150 years (5 months x 30 days = 150 days). They wore turbans (crowns of gold); they had beards (faces of men, as the Roman shaved); they had long hair like women; they wore chain-mail (breast-plates of iron); and they were fierce (teeth of lions). The ‘falling star’ was Mohammed, the ‘smoke’ out of Satan’s bottomless pit is the false religion of Islam, which hides the Gospel from Arabs eyes.

The 6th Trumpet represents Elohim releasing the Turks to cross over the Euphrates River to conquer 1/3rd of the Roman Empire for 391 years (prepared for the hour and day and month and year, 1 + 30 + 360 = 391) from 1062-1453 AD. They used gunpowder muskets, so ‘fire, smoke and brimstone’ appeared at their horses mouths. They used large cannons, some with the faces of lions on them, to knock down the thick protective walls of Constantinople." SOURCE

 

[YahuahSaves]

Yeah no.
6th seal comes immediately after the Great Tribulation and is the day of the Lord.
According to Jesus, in Matthew 24, it would be the generation that sees the fig tree bring forth new leaves that sees everything up to the end.
I could be wrong on the fig tree being Israel, specifically Jerusalem being retaken in 1967, but it was certainly not the civil war.

We still live in a Satan ruled sin cursed world, the end has not come yet.

"John was given the Revelation in the 90-95 AD, and in Revelation 1:1 Messiah told him that these things would take place shortly.

1st Seal – The white horse represents the ‘conquering’ Roman Empire, from 98-117 AD, as under the reign of Emperor Trajan it was a time of its greatest expansion and their military conquests were celebrated by riding ‘white horses’ in their victory parades. Roman Emperors Nerva, Trajan, Hadrian, Antoninus Pius and Marcus Aurelius, were descendants of the Isle of Crete, who were famous bowmen, so the ‘bow‘ points directly at them. The ‘crown’ represents the laurel wreathes of victory that were worn by the Caesars after their armies had won a military battle.

2nd Seal – The Red horse represents a bloody time in the Roman Empire from 185-284 AD, as it went into a phase of revolution and civil war for 90 years, during which there were 32 emperors and 27 contenders for the throne.

3rd Seal – The Black horse represents a period of gloom and despair, as the Romans suffered under excessive taxes that were needed to pay for wars. The pricing for wheat and barley point to food scarcity from 222-235 AD.

4th Seal – The Pale horse represents 1/4th of Romans dying from famine, plague, pestilence and violence, from 250-300 AD. The word ‘earth‘ is pointing to the Roman Empire as the ‘land’ of prophecy.

5th Seal – It represents the millions of martyrs who were killed by the Roman Empire, especially the Smyrna church era martyrs who Emperor Diocletian persecuted for tenyears, from 303-312 AD. Their blood cried out for Elohim to avenge their deaths.

6th Seal – Earthquakes in the prophecy represent great political upheavals. Eastern Emperor Constantine defeated Diocletian’s army in 312 AD, which ended the persecutions. Diocletian (the Sun) was so panic stricken, he died insane. Constantine defeated emperors Maxentius and Licinius to become sole ruler of both west and east by 324 AD. The Roman leaders (stars) fell and their power receded as a scroll. The mountains and islands that were moved out of place, were the countries and people that were affected by this political change.

7th Seal – It represents Messiah sealing His servants before He sounds the seven war trumpets of judgment against the Pagan Roman Empire. SOURCE

 

[YahuahSaves]

We are already in the 6th Seal:

Even already in the midst of the Civil War foretold:

The Sixth Bowl Of Revelation 16

 

[YahuahSaves]

Yes and no.

Let’s consider what “Trumpets” are used for in Scripture (KJB):

Trumpets specifically related to revelation is symbolism for God's holy judgement. To expand on the quote in my earlier post:

"Elohim sent army after army to attack and conquer the different areas of the vast kingdom. Trumpets are symbols employed to indicate war against the enemy."

Also, "The Trumpet judgments lead to the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the Eastern Roman Empire being attacked. Here is a summary of the fulfillment of the six trumpets, which links to the verse by verse explanations"SOURCE

 

[Matt5]

I remember over 20 years ago reading the Left Behind series up until the Locusts of Rev 9 were discussed, and that's where I lost interest. I applaud LaHaye and Jenkins for holding to as strict a literal interpretation as possible, but for some reason it was too much in that instance.

Now I'm wondering if we've seen at least the beginning of the 1st Woe. I'll explain.

[Rev 9:1 KJV] And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Stars aren't "hims". This star must be a non-literal reference. This sets the stage for the rest of the passage to be non-literal.

[Rev 9:2 KJV] And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Smoke is often associated with judgment, probably because it affects more than the subjects of judgment. At the least it stings everyone's eyes where it reaches, and it reaches far into the air, vertically and horizontally.

[Rev 9:3 KJV] And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

We immediately see that these are not normal locusts, but have to be compared with the power of scorpions. Imagine if it were described the other way, and scorpions were given wings and made to swarm as locusts. Ouch!

[Rev 9:4 KJV] And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

The locusts don't even eat like normal locusts, but are only after the unbelievers. This is probably the hardest thing for my suggestion to fit.

[Rev 9:5 KJV] And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment [was] as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Why 5 months?
And what is the torment of a scorpion like?
Here's a description from emedicinehealth.com:
Severe signs and symptoms of a sting from a scorpion include numbness throughout the body, difficulty swallowing, a thick tongue, blurred vision, roving eye movements, seizures, salivation, and difficulty breathing.

[Rev 9:6 KJV] And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Does this mean they can't even kill themselves? Or does it somehow allude to a condition where they are kept alive medically? Or something else?

[Rev 9:7 KJV] And the shapes of the locusts [were] like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads [were] as it were crowns like gold, and their faces [were] as the faces of men.

Here's where I think it might apply to today. "Horses prepared into battle" seem to associate with military might and speed. "Crowns" suggest governmental authority. "Faces of men" may go with the next verse's "hair of women" to indicate something akin to the transgender movement, which is being pushed strongly in our military.

[Rev 9:8 KJV] And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as [the teeth] of lions.

If the main point of these locusts is to wield the power of scorpions, why do they need "teeth of lions"? Because it indicates the authority of rulers.

[Rev 9:9 KJV] And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings [was] as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

"Breastplates of iron" mean they have been made impervious to attack, even possibly political or spiritual attack, while the sound of the wings like chariots and horses running to battle reiterates the speed and power of military action and enforcement.

[Rev 9:10 KJV] And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power [was] to hurt men five months.
[Rev 9:11 KJV] And they had a king over them, [which is] the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue [is] Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath [his] name Apollyon.

The main thing these creatures try to accomplish is the name of their leader, "destruction".

So here's my theory--the last few years are the time period spoken of. The stings are the covid vaccine, which is said to give immunity, but only for a short time before needing a booster (about 5 months, perhaps). Our military is one of the driving forced of the vaccine, along with the government. The same military and government has been pushing the transgender garbage, whose poster boy is "Rachel" Levine (man's face, woman's hair).

View attachment 326385
The same government was of no use against the Antifa and BLM riots, but allowed them to perpetrate their destruction.

The scorpion sting symptoms are reminiscent of either Covid or the vaccine (myocarditis, blood clots, strokes, and general loss of immunity to many diseases). Mostly people aren't dying from the vaccine, though some are, and the supposed purpose is to keep people from dying. Many who are refusing to take the vaccine are believers (which may account for the text that says the believers are sealed against the locusts).

What do you think?

I think your theory is very clever, but probably not correct. The locust appear to be demons. At that time, the entire planet is taken over by demons.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Again, "No." it is a call to worship God, to the earth, not just Judgment. They are partial judgments, mixed with mercy, until the final 7th Trumpet, in which are the 7 last plagues.

Well I never contested that... the battle is against Ha-satan, when we get right down to it.

 

[YahuahSaves]

The 1st Trumpet has nothing to do with AD 400. It is the destruction of Jerusalem, AD 70.

"All of the things that Messiah described from Matthew 23:36 to Matthew 24:33 were fulfilled by 70 AD when the Romans desolated Jerusalem, the temple, and the Jewish nation."
Source

•“… Christ saw in Jerusalem a symbol of the world hardened in unbelief and rebellion, and hastening on to meet the retributive judgments of God. …” – The Great Controversy (1911); 22.1

Read The Sixth Bowl Of Revelation 16

 

[Douggg]

According to Jesus, in Matthew 24, it would be the generation that sees the fig tree bring forth new leaves that sees everything up to the end.
I could be wrong on the fig tree being Israel, specifically Jerusalem being retaken in 1967, but it was certainly not the civil war.

We still live in a Satan ruled sin cursed world, the end has not come yet.

You are right about this being the fig tree generation. The not passing away counting begins in 1967. Perhaps 1967 could be considered the leaves being tender, if one wants to take Israel as the fig tree. May 15,1948 was fulfillment of bible prophecy, Isaiah 66:7-8, a nation born in a day.

 

[DavidPT]

I don't think any of the trumpets have been blown yet, until the 6th seal, which is a very overt event that has the entire world going for bunkers and they know that the wrath of God comes next.... none of the wrath of God judgements, the trumpets and bowls play out.



The only thing that could have happened up until this point is, seals, and that's debatable, obviously some people have partial preterist interpretations and think the seals were opened up throughout history, I believe they are things opened closer to the 70th week although I do believe the first 4 could be opened prior to the 70th week, leading into it would be my guess.

If none of the trumpets blow until after the 6th seal, this would mean that the time of the 2Ws testifying, and the beast that ascends out of the pit, making war with them , overcoming them, and then killing them, after they have finished their testimony, that this would be after great tribulation rather than during great tribulation. How does it make sense, the fact the time of the 2Ws undeniably involves the 6th trumpet, that all of that is meaning after the great trib rather than before and during the great trib?

Does not the 42 month reign of the beast involve great tribulation? Does the 42 month reign parallel when the 2Ws are testifying? Or does it follow after they finish testifying? Either way, once the 42 month reign is in the past, no one would still be being made war against, overcome, then killed. And that as of the 6th seal, great tribulation would be in the past, which means the 42 month reign would be in the past.

It's hard enough to try and make sense out of the Pretrib view. Your view is even harder to make sense of, virtually impossible, I have yet to make sense of it. You and Douggg have a lot in common though, meaning some of the illogical things you both propose at times. For example. Douggg insists that during the 7th trumpet satan is opening the pit during the 5th trumpet. And you are insisting that the time of the 6th trumpet, which involves the time of great tribulation, that it is meaning after great tribulation.

 

[Derf]

Yes, Fred, a long time ago.

Can you elaborate?

 

[Douggg]

For example. Douggg insists that during the 7th trumpet satan is opening the pit during the 5th trumpet.

David, the trumpets are announcements. They announce events particularly damaging to them living on earth.

The first six trumpet events are grouped together in Revelation 8-9. They take place in sequence.

Separate from that group is the seventh trumpet. It does not follow the timeline sequence like the other group of trumpets 1 thru 6.

The seventh trumpet announces (paraphrased) that God finally has had enough of Satan's control over the nations, and his kingdom of Babylon the Great.... and begins the process of taking the nations of the world away from Satan. So when the seventh trumpet sounds, Satan and his angels (making up his kingdom) are cast down to earth. (in Revelation 18, the dismantling of Satan's kingdom is the Babylon has fallen, has fallen)

Which Satan when cast down to earth is the angel falling from heaven in Revelation 9. Satan, knowing he has but a short time left, opens the bottomless pit and all those evil residents come out, including evil angels and the tormenting locust creatures - which could be demonic beings in that form.

 

[tranquil]

If none of the trumpets blow until after the 6th seal, this would mean that the time of the 2Ws testifying, and the beast that ascends out of the pit, making war with them , overcoming them, and then killing them, after they have finished their testimony, that this would be after great tribulation rather than during great tribulation. How does it make sense, the fact the time of the 2Ws undeniably involves the 6th trumpet, that all of that is meaning after the great trib rather than before and during the great trib?

Does not the 42 month reign of the beast involve great tribulation? Does the 42 month reign parallel when the 2Ws are testifying? Or does it follow after they finish testifying? Either way, once the 42 month reign is in the past, no one would still be being made war against, overcome, then killed. And that as of the 6th seal, great tribulation would be in the past, which means the 42 month reign would be in the past.

It's hard enough to try and make sense out of the Pretrib view. Your view is even harder to make sense of, virtually impossible, I have yet to make sense of it. You and Douggg have a lot in common though, meaning some of the illogical things you both propose at times. For example. Douggg insists that during the 7th trumpet satan is opening the pit during the 5th trumpet. And you are insisting that the time of the 6th trumpet, which involves the time of great tribulation, that it is meaning after great tribulation.

It really is very simple.

There are 2 different wraths associated with 2 different stopping of the sacrifices (Trumpet wrath at the stopping of the grain & drink offering; & Bowls of wrath at the stopping of the animal sacrifices in Dan 9:27).

The great tribulation starts at the 1st wrath (start of the Trumpets) which will begin on a Feast of Tabernacles - the plagues of God go out to those that won't worship God (Zech 14:12-21).

The locusts of the 5th Trumpet are the same locusts of Joel 1-3. They are the 'people of the prince to come' in Daniel 9:26.

4What the devouring locust has left, the swarming locust has eaten; what the swarming locust has left, the young locust has eaten; and what the young locust has left, the destroying locust has eaten. 5Wake up, you drunkards, and weep; wail, all you drinkers of wine, because of the sweet wine, for it has been cut off from your mouth. 6For a nation has invaded My land, powerful and without number; its teeth are the teeth of a lion, and its fangs are the fangs of a lioness. 7It has laid waste My grapevine and splintered My fig tree. It has stripped off the bark and thrown it away; the branches have turned white. 8Wail like a virgin dressed in sackcloth, grieving for the husband of her youth.​

​

9 Grain and drink offerings have been cut off from the house of the LORD; the priests are in mourning, those who minister before the LORD.​

​

13Put on sackcloth and lament, O priests; wail, O ministers of the altar. Come, spend the night in sackcloth, O ministers of my God, because the grain and drink offerings are withheld from the house of your God. 14Consecrate a fast; proclaim a solemn assembly! Gather the elders
and all the residents of the land to the house of the LORD your God, and cry out to the LORD.​

​

15 Alas for the day! For the Day of the LORD is near, and it will come as destruction from the Almighty.​

​

The sacrifices that are cut off in Daniel 9:27 are animal sacrifices, the Hebrew word, 'zebach' (H2077) implying a killing. The 'daily sacrifices' in Daniel 12:11 are 'tamid' which just means 'continual' (H8548).

When the 'grain and drink offerings' are cut off (communion bread & wine) are stopped at the start of the Day of the Lord (at the Trumpets), then after the 5 months, then after the 1st part of the 6th Trumpet killing a third of mankind, then the Daniel 9:27 covenant is made, which allows the sacrifices of animals, and then it is broken at the 7th Trumpet.

The 2 witnesses are in sackcloth because the grain & wine offerings have been cut off (see Joel 1:13).

Grain & drink offerings cut off by the locusts in Dan 9:26 (Trumpets 1-6 at Rev 9:21)
Dan 9

26 ... And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.​

​

Animal sacrifices cut off in Dan 9:27 (Covenant begins at Rev 10:1 through 7 bowls of wrath)

27And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”​

 

[DavidPT]

It really is very simple.

There are 2 different wraths associated with 2 different stopping of the sacrifices (Trumpet wrath at the stopping of the grain & drink offering; & Bowls of wrath at the stopping of the animal sacrifices in Dan 9:27).

The great tribulation starts at the 1st wrath (start of the Trumpets) which will begin on a Feast of Tabernacles - the plagues of God go out to those that won't worship God (Zech 14:12-21).

The locusts of the 5th Trumpet are the same locusts of Joel 1-3. They are the 'people of the prince to come' in Daniel 9:26.

4What the devouring locust has left, the swarming locust has eaten; what the swarming locust has left, the young locust has eaten; and what the young locust has left, the destroying locust has eaten. 5Wake up, you drunkards, and weep; wail, all you drinkers of wine, because of the sweet wine, for it has been cut off from your mouth. 6For a nation has invaded My land, powerful and without number; its teeth are the teeth of a lion, and its fangs are the fangs of a lioness. 7It has laid waste My grapevine and splintered My fig tree. It has stripped off the bark and thrown it away; the branches have turned white. 8Wail like a virgin dressed in sackcloth, grieving for the husband of her youth.​

​

9 Grain and drink offerings have been cut off from the house of the LORD; the priests are in mourning, those who minister before the LORD.​

​

13Put on sackcloth and lament, O priests; wail, O ministers of the altar. Come, spend the night in sackcloth, O ministers of my God, because the grain and drink offerings are withheld from the house of your God. 14Consecrate a fast; proclaim a solemn assembly! Gather the elders
and all the residents of the land to the house of the LORD your God, and cry out to the LORD.​

​

15 Alas for the day! For the Day of the LORD is near, and it will come as destruction from the Almighty.​

​

The sacrifices that are cut off in Daniel 9:27 are animal sacrifices, the Hebrew word, 'zebach' (H2077) implying a killing. The 'daily sacrifices' in Daniel 12:11 are 'tamid' which just means 'continual' (H8548).

When the 'grain and drink offerings' are cut off (communion bread & wine) are stopped at the start of the Day of the Lord (at the Trumpets), then after the 5 months, then after the 1st part of the 6th Trumpet killing a third of mankind, then the Daniel 9:27 covenant is made, which allows the sacrifices of animals, and then it is broken at the 7th Trumpet.

The 2 witnesses are in sackcloth because the grain & wine offerings have been cut off (see Joel 1:13).

Grain & drink offerings cut off by the locusts in Dan 9:26 (Trumpets 1-6 at Rev 9:21)
Dan 9

26 ... And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.​

​

Animal sacrifices cut off in Dan 9:27 (Covenant begins at Rev 10:1 through 7 bowls of wrath)

27And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”​

What you are proposing over all doesn't seem simple to me since I can't make sense out of any of it either. I simply don't see it being reasonable, the fact the times of the trumpets involve numerous years, that all of that is meaning during the time of the 6th seal. As of the 6th seal, in my view, that begins the day of the Lord. While I do think the day of the Lord involves more than a single 24 hour day, I can't imagine it involving numerous years, though. Some interpreters, mainly Preterists and Pretribbers, have the day of the Lord beginning during great trib(Matthew 24:21). Does that mean we are still in the day of the Lord when the 6th seal event commences, and that we then still have some more years of the day of the Lord taking place, the fact some interpreters insist the time of the trumpets, none of this begins until the time of the 6th seal?

Some interpreters argue that God's wrath is after great tribulation, not during great tribulation, and that I agree. Then these same interpreters I have in mind here, Jamdoc being one of them, turns right around and contradicts that by insisting all of the trumpets are after great tribulation, that they are during the 6th seal.

What is recorded in Revelation 11 in regards to the 2ws, for example, does that look like that is involving God's wrath when after they finish their testimony, the beast wages war with them, overcomes them, then kills them?

 

[tranquil]

What you are proposing over all doesn't seem simple to me since I can't make sense out of any of it either. I simply don't see it being reasonable, the fact the times of the trumpets involve numerous years, that all of that is meaning during the time of the 6th seal. As of the 6th seal, in my view, that begins the day of the Lord. While I do think the day of the Lord involves more than a single 24 hour day, I can't imagine it involving numerous years, though. Some interpreters, mainly Preterists and Pretribbers, have the day of the Lord beginning during great trib(Matthew 24:21). Does that mean we are still in the day of the Lord when the 6th seal event commences, and that we then still have some more years of the day of the Lord taking place, the fact some interpreters insist the time of the trumpets, none of this begins until the time of the 6th seal?

Some interpreters argue that God's wrath is after great tribulation, not during great tribulation, and that I agree. Then these same interpreters I have in mind here, Jamdoc being one of them, turns right around and contradicts that by insisting all of the trumpets are after great tribulation, that they are during the 6th seal.

What is recorded in Revelation 11 in regards to the 2ws, for example, does that look like that is involving God's wrath when after they finish their testimony, the beast wages war with them, overcomes them, then kills them?

I simply don't see it being reasonable, the fact the times of the trumpets involve numerous years, that all of that is meaning during the time of the 6th seal.

I don't know what you mean by this. The Trumpets occur after the 6th Seal. Maybe you think the Trumpets occur during the Seals? I just read Revelation sequentially.

The 6th Seal starts when the man of sin is revealed at the start of the Day of the Lord's wrath.

God's wrath is the great tribulation. People who worship God 'come out of the great tribulation'. Those that don't, go into it. Not sure what else there is to say.

Your opinion about how long the events of Revelation should last is not really of importance. The 2 witnesses are after the locusts. The 1st woe arrives then the 2nd then the 3rd. Why make it complicated?

What is recorded in Revelation 11 in regards to the 2ws, for example, does that look like that is involving God's wrath when after they finish their testimony, the beast wages war with them, overcomes them, then kills them?

I'm not sure what you mean here.

The 2 witnesses are the vehicle for God's wrath - they have the same powers as described in Zech 14:17.

Those that worship the 'living image' that cuts off the animal sacrifices will receive the 7 bowls of wrath.

God has to make it appear as though good has lost and evil has won so as to separate the wheat and tares.

 

[Jamdoc]

"Trumpets are symbols employed to indicate war against the enemy.

1st Trumpet – Hail can point to war in Bible symbolism, and Elohim caused the Goths, who were led by Alaric, to move in the direction in which literal hail came (north to south). They attacked the Roman Empire from 400-410 AD, in Greece, Gaul and Spain. Then 300,000 Goths invaded Italy. The fire represents the ‘scorched earth’ policy in their invasions of enemy territory.

2nd Trumpet – A mountain in Biblical symbolism represents a great nation and a sea is a large group of people. It represents Elohim sending the Vandals, led by Genseric, to attack the coast-lands of the Roman territory of the Mediterranean and all the islands from 425-470 AD, leaving bloodshed and confusion in their wake.

3rd Trumpet – A star in prophecy symbolizes a leader. Elohim sent this great burning star, Attila the king of the Huns, who was called “the scourge of God.” Attila and his 800,000 man army rose quickly and flashed across the land in 451 AD, and desolated the Italian Alps, which is the source of the Danube, Rhine and Po rivers. The dead bodies in the rivers made the water ‘bitter’ (wormwood).

4th Trumpet – The sun, moon and stars, can symbolize leadership structure. Here it represents Elohim using Odoacer and the Heruli, a branch of the Goths, to cause the downfall of Roman leadership when Romulus Augustalus, the last Western Roman Emperor (the sun) of the West was captured in 476 AD. The hierarchy of Roman leaders (moon and stars) would have lost power too.

The 5th Trumpet represents Elohim using the Arabian (Mohammedan) army against the Roman Empire from 632-782 AD, which is 150 years (5 months x 30 days = 150 days). They wore turbans (crowns of gold); they had beards (faces of men, as the Roman shaved); they had long hair like women; they wore chain-mail (breast-plates of iron); and they were fierce (teeth of lions). The ‘falling star’ was Mohammed, the ‘smoke’ out of Satan’s bottomless pit is the false religion of Islam, which hides the Gospel from Arabs eyes.

The 6th Trumpet represents Elohim releasing the Turks to cross over the Euphrates River to conquer 1/3rd of the Roman Empire for 391 years (prepared for the hour and day and month and year, 1 + 30 + 360 = 391) from 1062-1453 AD. They used gunpowder muskets, so ‘fire, smoke and brimstone’ appeared at their horses mouths. They used large cannons, some with the faces of lions on them, to knock down the thick protective walls of Constantinople." SOURCE

The bible explains its own symbols, when your first instinct is to assume everything is allegory you're doing eisegesis not exegesis