Gnostics, Collyridians, and modern Catholic Mariology

[Ripheus27]

So once upon a time, the apostolic Church schismed (or proto-schismed, in a sense) into the Gnostic and Catholic communions, with the former eventually vanishing for various reasons. Later, lots of people in parts of Christendom revered Mary so much, we later made up the term "Collyridian" to refer to this sect of Mary-worshiping folk (who appear to be partly responsible for some early Islamic misconceptions about the Trinity, but that's another story for another time).

Now the thing about the Catholic Church is that in certain respects it has historically been much more tolerant, in ways, than overzealous appearances (and actual campaigns of oppression) indicate. The RCC has been condemned for adapting Christian concepts to pagan imagery, though this was meant as part of the redemption of said imagery (i.e. the Church was not trying to be a destructive force but elected itself to said adaptation). Likewise, rather than kill off tons of Christians for venerating icons, the RCC saw fit to argue that the fact of the Incarnation renders tangible representations of divine concepts into venerable (though not adorable!) functions. So I wonder if the long-standing RCC veneration of Mary is to some degree both directly and indirectly the result of the Church's attempts to bring Sophian Gnostics and Collyridians back into the fold, as it were (with Sophia equal to the Tanakhian Wisdom, cross-referenced with Mary by Catholics).

 

[4x4toy]

So once upon a time, the apostolic Church schismed (or proto-schismed, in a sense) into the Gnostic and Catholic communions, with the former eventually vanishing for various reasons. Later, lots of people in parts of Christendom revered Mary so much, we later made up the term "Collyridian" to refer to this sect of Mary-worshiping folk (who appear to be partly responsible for some early Islamic misconceptions about the Trinity, but that's another story for another time).

Now the thing about the Catholic Church is that in certain respects it has historically been much more tolerant, in ways, than overzealous appearances (and actual campaigns of oppression) indicate. The RCC has been condemned for adapting Christian concepts to pagan imagery, though this was meant as part of the redemption of said imagery (i.e. the Church was not trying to be a destructive force but elected itself to said adaptation). Likewise, rather than kill off tons of Christians for venerating icons, the RCC saw fit to argue that the fact of the Incarnation renders tangible representations of divine concepts into venerable (though not adorable!) functions. So I wonder if the long-standing RCC veneration of Mary is to some degree both directly and indirectly the result of the Church's attempts to bring Sophian Gnostics and Collyridians back into the fold, as it were (with Sophia equal to the Tanakhian Wisdom, cross-referenced with Mary by Catholics).

Flew over my head

 

[Ripheus27]

Basically, do Catholics quasi-worship (their word is "hyperdulia") Mary partially as a weird result of attempts to reconcile the Church with Gnostics who worshiped Sophia, a type/antitype of Mary, and with Collyridians who worshiped Mary in herself?

 

[AlephBet]

So once upon a time, the apostolic Church schismed (or proto-schismed, in a sense) into the Gnostic and Catholic communions, with the former eventually vanishing for various reasons. Later, lots of people in parts of Christendom revered Mary so much, we later made up the term "Collyridian" to refer to this sect of Mary-worshiping folk (who appear to be partly responsible for some early Islamic misconceptions about the Trinity, but that's another story for another time).

Now the thing about the Catholic Church is that in certain respects it has historically been much more tolerant, in ways, than overzealous appearances (and actual campaigns of oppression) indicate. The RCC has been condemned for adapting Christian concepts to pagan imagery, though this was meant as part of the redemption of said imagery (i.e. the Church was not trying to be a destructive force but elected itself to said adaptation). Likewise, rather than kill off tons of Christians for venerating icons, the RCC saw fit to argue that the fact of the Incarnation renders tangible representations of divine concepts into venerable (though not adorable!) functions. So I wonder if the long-standing RCC veneration of Mary is to some degree both directly and indirectly the result of the Church's attempts to bring Sophian Gnostics and Collyridians back into the fold, as it were (with Sophia equal to the Tanakhian Wisdom, cross-referenced with Mary by Catholics).

Properly defining the terms and symbols you use would open blind eyes.

Eve was taken from Adam as the favored side (meaning of rib). The mind of Adam and Eve was naked (Arum), meaning formless and void. Both the waters of baptism and the waters of the Spirit of God are both symbolic of this filling a void. A quick look at the Hebrew words World / Word in this Lexicon will show you what I am saying: LEXICON

Each word root for word / world must be seen in connection. All words have meaning from the one root making the branches in the language.

Wisdom (Sophia) is the feminine of Ruach (Spirit) filling the mind of Eve, refined to the Bride of Adam's higher mind (Lord). Once we reach Mary, Eve is refined as humanity (Children below). In a sense, we are all Mary. Our groom is who we are then consummated to at the resurrection. The same process Yahweh used to prepare Joshua / Yeshua in Zechariah 3 is the same process we will all undergo. He was the first fruits. Yahweh had to humble himself as Lord of Hosts and become a Kinsman, paying the debt of his own bloodshed:

Genesis 9

6 Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans his blood will be shed,
because in his image, Elohim made humans.

This was Elohim speaking. Yahweh had to become new as a Kinsman of Man to pay his own debt for dividing the image, bloodshed and proclaiming himself to be God with none beside. Once he became a new creation, so to does man follow this path. This is where Mary comes in by comparison to Eve. All of humanity in the garden of Yahweh are planted there to bear fruit. Wisdom is harvested so to speak. Sophia is wisdom. Eve is being prepared as a Bride to Christ. Again, when we reach Mary, Yahweh's Spirit is joined back to Eve. Yahweh is Adam's ruling Ego.

See this clearly now. Yahweh is the Ego / Lord / Judge of Adam's own mind (all of us). Satan is the accuser / conscience. Again, check Zechariah 3. Did Yahweh silence Satan? Did Jesus repeat this in the desert temptation?

How did he accomplish this? His Spirit entered into mankind. This is what we are designed to do. We are a refinery. The body is the temple, with all of its implements. The beast is the Carbon (6 protons, 6 neutrons, 6 electrons). We are designed to die, just as a plant expresses from seed, lives, bears fruit and dies. The harvest is the wisdom that is gleaned behind the Sons in the field.

When Ruth gleaned from the field of Boaz, he was the Guardian raising the sons of the land owner. She then uncovers his feet (euphemism for his genitals) and shows him her intention. He then throws the sandals (again between the feet / fitting over the feet) as a sign he is taking her and the land.

Boaz is the Guardian Redeemer. Adam as Yahweh's Ruling mind is the fallen Guardian Cherub of Ezekiel 28. He wished to rule his own color of the rainbow (Israel) by shedding blood and dividing the nations. Little did he know, but his desire to rule was ruling himself (Eve / Mary). Humanity was himself (his seed). The lessons he thought he was teaching Israel were being taught to himself. Why?

Paul tells us.

Colossians 1

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

We are him. He is all of us. He judged himself, just as Jesus points out speaking ONLY the Father's words. Who is the Father? Elohim from Genesis 1. Yahweh is the Elohim of Israel (one color of the promised Rainbow). All nations are to be blessed.

Mary is Humanity being refined. Veneration must be seen in the light of who they think they worship. Yahweh (SON) had to find this out as well. Veneration or judgment, it's all the same.

Know Thyself. Who are we?

Matthew 18

10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.

We are the child (Eve) being refined to Mary. Our Angel was born from above. We were known from the foundation. We will die. The Angel that is refined from the wisdom gleaned (Ruth gleaning) is the refinement of the true essence (groom) above.

Matthew 22:30

At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

What are we rising to? What are we? We are the mind trying to silence judgment. We cannot judge others apart from judging ourselves. The same holds true for veneration. Veneration of Mary is veneration of what we are here in the waters of baptism. Better to simply realize what the self is. All things (Son of God). By his seed, we are one blood with many veins. Many slices of the same loaf. By this, we are adopted and have an inheritance.

Mary is the goal. We are a bride for our true nature above. New robe (body) and mind (Crown).

 

[Ripheus27]

AlephBet, are you sure you're not a Catholic heretic?

 

[AlephBet]

AlephBet, are you sure you're not a Catholic heretic?

I am showing you something out of the ordinary. You, like many others, ask questions founded on incorrect presuppositions. My answers will always point you back to right angle thinking. Truth is orthogonal (hidden to the right). When Peter caught 153 fish, he followed the advise of Christ. He fished on the right for his catch. By this, he would have been able to feed the sheep if he loved the Son. The answers you question are seen clearly by my ability to show you how to answer them properly. Look to the value (abstract) and not the concrete (what you think you see in the image). Truth is orthogonal. 153 is the 17th triangular number, the measure of the fish according to Pythagoras and the secret to unity with multiplicity. It's the fish, the way and the Vesica Pisces of the flower of life. Again, you can't see this by looking at the number 153 related to fish without not knowing how to fish men out of the waters of baptism. We are in the flood you know. A boat is there for us.

There is nothing heritical about seeing how the Son of God overcame his own desire to rule as Lord of Hosts. A Host is the body of something that possess it (Spirit). The body, in and of itself, is only the host for the Spirit. It's the entire story of the Bible. We are Eve. Mary is refined Eve from the line of David, bride to the Son of God. Was Eve first taken / divided from the Son? Who do you think you are IN the SON?

Do we repeat the patters of heaven above as a copy below? WHO is waiting on the Groom to return? Religion is the Corpus of believers as ONE body. Our head?

Hebrews 9

23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Peter (RCC) denies Christ his Love (Agape). Do you Love me Peter? Today is the second time Peter is asked (Sign of Johan). 1000 years (1 Day) remains for Peter to answer. So far, he has made himself the prince (being dressed and lead to his destruction).

 

[AlephBet]

AlephBet, are you sure you're not a Catholic heretic?

While it's true Peter is dressed as a prince today, he is being asked to repent. Peter denied Christ three times (sign of Jonah). Peter is still denying Christ. Even a simple Christmas Song tells the story.

All He wants are his two front teeth (Shin). Sister Susie (NUN) sits on the Thistle (Sin). The thorn is on the crown (mind) until sin is removed. Literally, the sister sits on the Priest's thorn. Originally, the temple prostitute is the Spirit abused by the male nature. Thus, the church being the great harlot of the ruling ego of man. Overcome Yahweh to silence Satan. This is the path Peter needs to heed or Babylon falls. We know it is coming. What will all their wealth gain them?

The Letter Shin is the eternal flame that does not consume the coal (Entropy). Coal is Carbon, or the mark of mankind (6 protons, 6 neutrons and 6 electrons). He wants his eternal life, defeating death. Man cannot get this until sin is removed from the Seed. Check the letters. Is Sister Susie (NUN) sitting on the Thistle? Who is Sister Susie? Eve / Mary / Nun / Seed / Ruth.

He desires to give us the gift. Peter needs to feed the sheep and repent. I can only tell the truth. Question it, but you won't get around the symbols I show you clearly spoken. Nat King Cole knew what he was singing from the TRIO of voices. The Spirit knew what it was teaching through the written word of the CHRISTMAS song. Clearly, the scriptures are written as WORD with letters. I show you the right side. Orthogonal and hidden. This is my gift of the Spirit.

Isaiah 5:26 - He lifts up a banner for the distant nations, he whistles for those at the ends of the earth. Here they come, swiftly and speedily!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyWiiDxbk-A

 

[4x4toy]

Basically, do Catholics quasi-worship (their word is "hyperdulia") Mary partially as a weird result of attempts to reconcile the Church with Gnostics who worshiped Sophia, a type/antitype of Mary, and with Collyridians who worshiped Mary in herself?

I think the answer is yes , why not it seems to me the whole Constantine thing was to unite while somewhat instituting Christians .. And the RCC still seems to be at it present day .. I never got the Mary thing , after Jesus virgin birth she had 4 other sons and at least 2 daughters by Joseph , not a virgin anymore .. Peter was married and Jesus is the Rock , just for starters .. I mean good grief , Mary , Joseph and all their kids were her family .. I think as highly of Mary as any woman or mother who has ever lived but people want to go all paparazzi on her ..

 

[single eye]

Only the saints manifested the fruits of the Spirit, healing the sick and casting out demons, while producing scripture. What everyone else says and what has transpired post-bible canon obsession, is irrelevant. Orthogonal thinking went out of style in the 60's along with lsd because it only leads to another form of godliness w/o the power.

 

[AlephBet]

Only the saints manifested the fruits of the Spirit, healing the sick and casting out demons, while producing scripture. What everyone else says and what has transpired post-bible canon obsession, is irrelevant. Orthogonal thinking went out of style in the 60's along with lsd because it only leads to another form of godliness w/o the power.

What did this one say about the last days, when all things would be revealed?

Acts 2:17
"'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

Daniel 12

3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”

 

[Albion]

Basically, do Catholics quasi-worship (their word is "hyperdulia") Mary partially as a weird result of attempts to reconcile the Church with Gnostics who worshiped Sophia, a type/antitype of Mary, and with Collyridians who worshiped Mary in herself?

I don't know of any evidence that suggests that this was the case.

 

[4x4toy]

Properly defining the terms and symbols you use would open blind eyes.

Eve was taken from Adam as the favored side (meaning of rib). The mind of Adam and Eve was naked (Arum), meaning formless and void. Both the waters of baptism and the waters of the Spirit of God are both symbolic of this filling a void. A quick look at the Hebrew words World / Word in this Lexicon will show you what I am saying: LEXICON

Each word root for word / world must be seen in connection. All words have meaning from the one root making the branches in the language.

Wisdom (Sophia) is the feminine of Ruach (Spirit) filling the mind of Eve, refined to the Bride of Adam's higher mind (Lord). Once we reach Mary, Eve is refined as humanity (Children below). In a sense, we are all Mary. Our groom is who we are then consummated to at the resurrection. The same process Yahweh used to prepare Joshua / Yeshua in Zechariah 3 is the same process we will all undergo. He was the first fruits. Yahweh had to humble himself as Lord of Hosts and become a Kinsman, paying the debt of his own bloodshed:

Genesis 9

6 Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans his blood will be shed,
because in his image, Elohim made humans.

This was Elohim speaking. Yahweh had to become new as a Kinsman of Man to pay his own debt for dividing the image, bloodshed and proclaiming himself to be God with none beside. Once he became a new creation, so to does man follow this path. This is where Mary comes in by comparison to Eve. All of humanity in the garden of Yahweh are planted there to bear fruit. Wisdom is harvested so to speak. Sophia is wisdom. Eve is being prepared as a Bride to Christ. Again, when we reach Mary, Yahweh's Spirit is joined back to Eve. Yahweh is Adam's ruling Ego.

See this clearly now. Yahweh is the Ego / Lord / Judge of Adam's own mind (all of us). Satan is the accuser / conscience. Again, check Zechariah 3. Did Yahweh silence Satan? Did Jesus repeat this in the desert temptation?

How did he accomplish this? His Spirit entered into mankind. This is what we are designed to do. We are a refinery. The body is the temple, with all of its implements. The beast is the Carbon (6 protons, 6 neutrons, 6 electrons). We are designed to die, just as a plant expresses from seed, lives, bears fruit and dies. The harvest is the wisdom that is gleaned behind the Sons in the field.

When Ruth gleaned from the field of Boaz, he was the Guardian raising the sons of the land owner. She then uncovers his feet (euphemism for his genitals) and shows him her intention. He then throws the sandals (again between the feet / fitting over the feet) as a sign he is taking her and the land.

Boaz is the Guardian Redeemer. Adam as Yahweh's Ruling mind is the fallen Guardian Cherub of Ezekiel 28. He wished to rule his own color of the rainbow (Israel) by shedding blood and dividing the nations. Little did he know, but his desire to rule was ruling himself (Eve / Mary). Humanity was himself (his seed). The lessons he thought he was teaching Israel were being taught to himself. Why?

Paul tells us.

Colossians 1

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

We are him. He is all of us. He judged himself, just as Jesus points out speaking ONLY the Father's words. Who is the Father? Elohim from Genesis 1. Yahweh is the Elohim of Israel (one color of the promised Rainbow). All nations are to be blessed.

Mary is Humanity being refined. Veneration must be seen in the light of who they think they worship. Yahweh (SON) had to find this out as well. Veneration or judgment, it's all the same.

Know Thyself. Who are we?

Matthew 18

10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.

We are the child (Eve) being refined to Mary. Our Angel was born from above. We were known from the foundation. We will die. The Angel that is refined from the wisdom gleaned (Ruth gleaning) is the refinement of the true essence (groom) above.

Matthew 22:30

At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

What are we rising to? What are we? We are the mind trying to silence judgment. We cannot judge others apart from judging ourselves. The same holds true for veneration. Veneration of Mary is veneration of what we are here in the waters of baptism. Better to simply realize what the self is. All things (Son of God). By his seed, we are one blood with many veins. Many slices of the same loaf. By this, we are adopted and have an inheritance.

Mary is the goal. We are a bride for our true nature above. New robe (body) and mind (Crown).

You don't need any complicated philosophy or interpretation to read into s .. God is not the author of confusion .. Ruth was a fine , clean woman , she humbly submitted herself to the authority of a righteous man "NO SEX" .. If I were in his place I can see his compulsion to protect her and treat her right , not for his own desires .. My wife submits herself to me and therefore she has nothing to worry about .. I provide for her provision , protection and covering with all gentleness .. My wife provides for me a constant smile , wisdom and a loving serving spirit .. I like being a man , I can fix things

 

[Unix]

I've concluded the same thing, so I think so, yes. I can see how it appealed to Christian Gnostics way back. Throughout history since the latter half of the 2nd Century Christians have made the Godhead too much a thing of the flesh emphasizing Jesus having been a man:

Now the thing about the Catholic Church is that in certain respects it has historically been much more tolerant, in ways, than overzealous appearances (and actual campaigns of oppression) indicate. The RCC has been condemned for adapting Christian concepts to pagan imagery, though this was meant as part of the redemption of said imagery (i.e. the Church was not trying to be a destructive force but elected itself to said adaptation). Likewise, rather than kill off tons of Christians for venerating icons, the RCC saw fit to argue that the fact of the Incarnation renders tangible representations of divine concepts into venerable (though not adorable!) functions. So I wonder if the long-standing RCC veneration of Mary is to some degree both directly and indirectly the result of the Church's attempts to bring Sophian Gnostics and Collyridians back into the fold, as it were (with Sophia equal to the Tanakhian Wisdom, cross-referenced with Mary by Catholics).

 

[single eye]

Al, Do you think typing big red letters will make what you say more credible? Highly unlikely. Lighten up.

 

[AlephBet]

Al, Do you think typing big red letters will make what you say more credible? Highly unlikely. Lighten up.

Removing ego for love makes us more credible. Judgment must be removed and perceived enemies forgiven. Judging me is judging the self in me. We each share the same self. Yahweh is the mind to judge and rule over a kingdom. God is Love and IS the ruler over all kingdoms. He keeps no record of wrongs, but simply shows us the way. Share the way.

I have one message to share. Like the Bible, the same message resonates in all of it's books and paragraphs. Our interactions here together are images of the same process to find a common ground in the mind. We exist as images. An image is never the true thing it represents. You can hold a picture of yourself to know how this works. The Word is the mirror showing your self. Remove the world around you to know that all images show your own true nature. Light reveals what it hits.

Love needs nothing to fill its cup, nor can it judge the empty cup. God fills all things with the image until we are All in All.

 

[single eye]

Al, you did lighten up, but you still lack credibility. The power comes from the dove, all other forms of godliness come from the flaming tongues and trying to combine them together is what the author of confusion intended us to do.