Gnostic Origin of Islam

[Ishraqiyun]

I found this fascinating article that discussed a possible Gnostic origin for the Islamic faith. The Author seems to be a rather fundamentalist type intent on using this possibility as ammunition in some apologetics debate with Islam but if you look past that nonsense to some of the possibilities presented I think it's definitely worth reading. In the article he references the work of a radical (in the free thinking way) Islamic scholar who brought the idea up.

I've always noticed a strong Gnostic thread in certain of the Shi'ite groups ( Ismaili, Alevi, Hurufism, Bektashi, etc..) but the idea that Muhammad himself may have been a Gnostic myth rather than an actual historical person never really entered my mind before. That's a pretty big claim he makes.


VirtueOnline - News

 

[football5680]

I don't know if the origin is Gnostic but their misconceptions about Christianity are completely Gnostic proving Muhammad couldn't be a prophet.

Quran 5:116-117, is basically Allah asking Jesus if he told people that he and his mother were gods. You will not find a single Christian would would say Mary is a God. God is all knowing and he would know that Christians don't believe this and this proves Muhammad couldn't be talking to an all-knowing being.

He thought the trinity was Allah, Jesus, and Mary, when it is actually the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Then the stories they have in the Quran come from the infancy gospel of Thomas which was created in the 2nd or 3rd century and early Christians had already rejected it as false.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

It's interesting I came across this (doing an unrelated Google search on Swedenborg) because I had just been reading the section in "The Gnostic Bible" that included a translation an early Shi'ite Gnostic text "The Mother of Books." It's fascinating how similar this Scripture is to the writings of the early Christian Gnostics found in the Nag Hammadi library. It has it's own Islamic version of the Gnostic Pleroma where the Aeons are named after the Imams who were considered to have incarnated on earth later as those specific Imams. Like in the Manichean tradition (and the Gospel of Thomas) it mentions 5 trees in Paradise. It even has an Islamic version of the demiurge. This being named Azazi'l creates this world rather than Allah having done so directly. Azazi'l is also shown boasting that he is God just like the Demiurge Yaldabaoth of Christian Gnostic lore.

I thought the presence of the Manichean symbolism was cool because I always noticed a similarity between the claims of Muhammad and of Mani. Both of them claimed that they were the last in a long line of Prophets that came to the various peoples of the world. They both claimed to be the "seal" of the Prophets. For Mani these past Prophets included Seth, Christ, Buddha, and Zoroaster among others. For Muhammad there were as many as 144 thousand past prophets (including Christ) but the Quran focuses mostly on those from Jewish tradition. Both of them said that the current Scriptures of the world had been corrupted and were impure and both of them revealed there own in a manner intended to prevent that from happening to theirs. Both of them also claimed to have been the Comforter mentioned in the Christian Scriptures. Mani first received revelations from an Angelic figure he called his Divine Twin and Muhammad also received his revelation from an Angel. There are others I noticed as well but they are slipping my mind at the moment.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

Quran 5:116-117, is basically Allah asking Jesus if he told people that he and his mother were gods. You will not find a single Christian would would say Mary is a God. God is all knowing and he would know that Christians don't believe this and this proves Muhammad couldn't be talking to an all-knowing being.

It's possible you might have in the region Muhammad was said to have lived. There were certain Christians "charged" with having defied the Virgin Mary and I do think some of them may have lived in that general area. The heresy hunter Epiphanus actually wrote about them.

The Christians of the seventh century had insensibly relapsed into a semblance of paganism: their public and private vows were addressed to the relics and images that disgraced the temples of the East: the throne of the Almighty was darkened by the clouds of martyrs, and saints, and angels, the objects of popular veneration; and the Collyridian heretics, who flourished in the fruitful soil of Arabia, invested the Virgin Mary with the name and honours of a goddess.
-Edward Gibbon, The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire


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[Redac]

Interesting. I'll have to read into it when I get the chance.

Quran 5:116-117, is basically Allah asking Jesus if he told people that he and his mother were gods. You will not find a single Christian would would say Mary is a God. God is all knowing and he would know that Christians don't believe this and this proves Muhammad couldn't be talking to an all-knowing being.

Perhaps a Muslim with more knowledge of their scripture could answer all this better, but my thought would be that when you use the lens of really strict monotheism and look at the way many Christians seem to quasi-worship Mary, it's not that big a leap to say that God would view such veneration as more or less the same as idolatry or worshiping a false god or something.

Note: I know you guys don't actually worship Mary, but from the outside it still looks a lot like you do sometimes.

 

[SanFrank]

finding interest in the column on Kalisch. German scholars have been busy having devoted a department on islamic studies. Kalisch has valid points. It makes me more the ill to think millions are absorbed by fiction. Why kalisch is still muslim might be tied to his profession.

The word muhamed is actually a title for "praised one" and it was Christ whom christian arabs were praising in the 7th century. Babylon had a part in that work of fiction. Thats why early manuscripts are written in kufic, a town 5 miles from babylon. The bible mentioned that great wickedness would be set free from Babylon.

 

[dlamberth]

I found this fascinating article that discussed a possible Gnostic origin for the Islamic faith. The Author seems to be a rather fundamentalist type intent on using this possibility as ammunition in some apologetics debate with Islam but if you look past that nonsense to some of the possibilities presented I think it's definitely worth reading. In the article he references the work of a radical (in the free thinking way) Islamic scholar who brought the idea up.

I've always noticed a strong Gnostic thread in certain of the Shi'ite groups ( Ismaili, Alevi, Hurufism, Bektashi, etc..) but the idea that Muhammad himself may have been a Gnostic myth rather than an actual historical person never really entered my mind before. That's a pretty big claim he makes.


VirtueOnline - News

There is "gnostic" (little g) which is different than Gnostic Christians. gnostic (little g) is Wisdom from direct inner experience. I believe that Muhammad fits that very well.

.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

Why kalisch is still muslim might be tied to his profession.

Maybe he finds the allegorical stories inspiring and believes that they reveal spirituality relevant truths? Would you reject the Biblical story of the prodigal son as being irrelevant if you found out the story wasn't a recounting the life of some literal family here on earth? Religious stories, scriptures, myths, etc. often focuses on the eternally true rather than historical trivia.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

There is "gnostic" (little g) which is different than Gnostic Christians. gnostic (little g) is Wisdom from direct inner experience. I believe that Muhammad fits that very well.

I understand your point about gnosis/ vs Gnostic but many of these elements come directly from early Gnostic (in the historical sectarian sense) writings. The boastful demiurge who creates an imperfect world is one of the key calling cards of the whole Gnostic miliue.

 

[seashale76]

We believe that Islam was originally a Christian heresy and not a separate religion. In fact, I still think Islam has more in common with Christianity than something like LDS. St. John of Damascus who lived in the 7th century (aka St. John Damascene) even wrote a book titled The Fount of Knowledge that expounded on the Orthodox faith and critiqued various Christian heresies, and this included Islam (the first Christian work to do so if I'm not mistaken).

Here's a link to an English translation of it:
http://www.gotark.org/upload/TheFountofKnowledge.pdf

 

[Islam_mulia]

I don't know if the origin is Gnostic but their misconceptions about Christianity are completely Gnostic proving Muhammad couldn't be a prophet.

Quran 5:116-117, is basically Allah asking Jesus if he told people that he and his mother were gods. You will not find a single Christian would would say Mary is a God. God is all knowing and he would know that Christians don't believe this and this proves Muhammad couldn't be talking to an all-knowing being.

The Quran does not say Christians believed Mary was God. The text was against Gnostic belief, not that Islam originated from that kind of thinking.

He thought the trinity was Allah, Jesus, and Mary, when it is actually the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The word trinity is not in the Quran. The word trinity is not even in the bible, or the bible defines trinity as what you wrote above.

Then the stories they have in the Quran come from the infancy gospel of Thomas which was created in the 2nd or 3rd century and early Christians had already rejected it as false.

Why would the Quran borrowed from a text that Christians rejected and at the same time use the text to reach out to the same Christians who rejected the gospel?

 

[football5680]

Interesting. I'll have to read into it when I get the chance.



Perhaps a Muslim with more knowledge of their scripture could answer all this better, but my thought would be that when you use the lens of really strict monotheism and look at the way many Christians seem to quasi-worship Mary, it's not that big a leap to say that God would view such veneration as more or less the same as idolatry or worshiping a false god or something.

Note: I know you guys don't actually worship Mary, but from the outside it still looks a lot like you do sometimes.

Nobody worships Mary. You should honor everybody that played a part in the early days of Christianity. Many people gave their lives so that the message of Jesus would spread and not acknowledging them and honoring them would be disrespectful.

 

[football5680]

The Quran does not say Christians believed Mary was God. The text was against Gnostic belief, not that Islam originated from that kind of thinking.


The word trinity is not in the Quran. The word trinity is not even in the bible, or the bible defines trinity as what you wrote above.


Why would the Quran borrowed from a text that Christians rejected and at the same time use the text to reach out to the same Christians who rejected the gospel?

It did say that Christians thought Mary was a god.

[005:116] Allah will say (on the Day of Judgment), “Oh Jesus, son of Mary! Did you ever instruct people, “Worship me and my mother as two other gods along with Allah”? Jesus will answer, “Exalted are You! It is not my place to say anything I have no right (to say). Had I said that, You would have already known it. You know what is in my mind, while I do not know what is in Your mind. Indeed, You have (absolute) knowledge about (absolutely) everything hidden and unseen.”

The ending also contradicts what Jesus said.
"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. (Matthew 11:27)

Muhammad didn't need to say the word trinity to reference the concept. He said it in other words. Christians didn't need to say it because the concept was clear. If you read John 1 it says the word became flesh.

Quran 4:171-O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

Muhammad used that story because he thought it was the truth. Mainstream Christians rejected it but Saudi Arabia wasn't a mainstream Christian country. Muhammad talked to a bunch of Christians and Jews and a Christian may have told him the story and he took it as the truth.

 

[Islam_mulia]

It did say that Christians thought Mary was a god.

[005:116] Allah will say (on the Day of Judgment), “Oh Jesus, son of Mary! Did you ever instruct people, “Worship me and my mother as two other gods along with Allah”? Jesus will answer, “Exalted are You! It is not my place to say anything I have no right (to say). Had I said that, You would have already known it. You know what is in my mind, while I do not know what is in Your mind. Indeed, You have (absolute) knowledge about (absolutely) everything hidden and unseen.”

There is no mention of Christians in the verse. Rather, the verse clearly refutes the worshipping of Mary, which probably was practiced by heretics during that time. The verse strongly advocates tawheed and condemns anything that associates anything or anyone with God.

The ending also contradicts what Jesus said.
"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. (Matthew 11:27)

The verse says that not only Jesus 'knows the Father' but others whom Jesus 'chooses to reveal' will also know the Father. What is so unique about this, 'knowing the Father'?

Muhammad didn't need to say the word trinity to reference the concept. He said it in other words.

Hah? Where was the word trinity ever mentioned in the Quran?

Christians didn't need to say it because the concept was clear. If you read John 1 it says the word became flesh.

How can the trinity ever be clear when the word was never mentioned in the bible and the definition of trinity was never made known by Jesus and his disciples?

How do 'the word become flesh' explained the trinity?

Quran 4:171-O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

I thought you believe the trinity is made up of three members but they are one. The Quran speaks of 'three' gods, how is that related to what you believe?

Anyway, you would have a pretty hard time explaining how the three can become one. try it.

Muhammad used that story because he thought it was the truth. Mainstream Christians rejected it but Saudi Arabia wasn't a mainstream Christian country. Muhammad talked to a bunch of Christians and Jews and a Christian may have told him the story and he took it as the truth.

It is more likely that the verse was directed at heretics who were living at Mecca and Medina, although the implication of the message was a condemnation of those who associates anything or anyone with God.

 

[simplegifts]

It's possible you might have in the region Muhammad was said to have lived. There were certain Christians "charged" with having defied the Virgin Mary and I do think some of them may have lived in that general area. The heresy hunter Epiphanus actually wrote about them.

The Christians of the seventh century had insensibly relapsed into a semblance of paganism: their public and private vows were addressed to the relics and images that disgraced the temples of the East: the throne of the Almighty was darkened by the clouds of martyrs, and saints, and angels, the objects of popular veneration; and the Collyridian heretics, who flourished in the fruitful soil of Arabia, invested the Virgin Mary with the name and honours of a goddess.
-Edward Gibbon, The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire



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Also check this out:

Marcion, 100-160 A.D.
·Denied the salvation of the body
·Souls of men would be saved.
· Flesh of Christ was imaginary
· Birth to be a phantom and a trick, Jesus just appeared
· Taught there were two gods; the Just/angry God of the Old Testament who punishes and the Kind/benevolent God of the New Testament who pities man.

Basilides,120-140
· Christ seemed to be a man
· It was not, Christ who died on the cross, but rather Simon of Cyrene, who was constrained to carry the cross for him, and mistakenly crucified in Christ's stead.
· Simon having received Jesus' form, Jesus assumed Simon's and thus stood by and laughed at them.
· Simon was crucified and Jesus returned to His Father.

Cerinthus 150 AD
· Taught "Jesus" was physical
·The "Christ" came upon him at his baptism, and left before his death,
· The "Christ- spirit" never suffered
· He did not accept that Jesus had yet been resurrected although he had been crucified.

Docetism
·Taught that Jesus only "seemed" to have a physical body
Gnosticism
· Denied Jesus had a human body

One thing to consider none of these people were eyewitneses to Jesus, his teachings or crucifixion.