For OECs (Old-Earth Creationists only): Isaiah 40:22 & the universe's expansion

AlexB23 · Nov 5, 2023

In Isaiah 40:22, the author and prophet Isaiah stated: He [God] sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

This verse may refer to the expanding universe described by Edwin Hubble (source 1) and the Belgian priest/astronomer Georges Lemaître during the 1920s (source 2). Fast forward to the end of the 20th century, and most scientists agree that the universe is getting bigger. Galaxies farther away tend to move faster, and away from us. Think of the universe as a balloon with galaxies drawn on it and someone inflates it. As time progresses, the objects on the balloon get pulled farther apart, or stretched in distance. Gravity holds together the individual galaxies, but the distance between any two galaxies typically increases.

Note that this thread is primarily directed to Old-Earth Creationists (OECs), though Young-Earth Creationists (YECs) may chime in as well. It is just splendid that the Bible has support with science. Isaiah was written circa 700 BC, and it took all the way until the late 1920s for astrophysicists to determine our universe is expanding, while a prophet knew this information 2600 years before science could catch up.

Source 1: Our Expanding Universe: Age, History & Other Facts
Source 2: Georges Lemaître - The Society of Catholic Scientists

Derf · Nov 6, 2023

AlexB23 said:
In Isaiah 40:22, the author and prophet Isaiah stated: He [God] sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

This verse may refer to the expanding universe described by Edwin Hubble (source 1) and the Belgian priest/astronomer Georges Lemaître during the 1920s (source 2). Fast forward to the end of the 20th century, and most scientists agree that the universe is getting bigger. Galaxies farther away tend to move faster, and away from us. Think of the universe as a balloon with galaxies drawn on it and someone inflates it. As time progresses, the objects on the balloon get pulled farther apart, or stretched in distance. Gravity holds together the individual galaxies, but the distance between any two galaxies typically increases.

Note that this thread is primarily directed to Old-Earth Creationists (OECs), though Young-Earth Creationists (YECs) may chime in as well. It is just splendid that the Bible has support with science. Isaiah was written circa 700 BC, and it took all the way until the late 1920s for astrophysicists to determine our universe is expanding, while a prophet knew this information 2600 years before science could catch up.

Source 1: Our Expanding Universe: Age, History & Other Facts
Source 2: Georges Lemaître - The Society of Catholic Scientists

View attachment 338926

I think that sounds somewhat reasonable. But it seems like the metaphor of a tent being spread out is not at all like your illustration of a balloon being blown up. Both are lacking in dimensional clarity. What I mean is that a tent is a two-dimensional object that is laid out on a horizontal plane (length and width), and then lifted by poles to add the third dimension. A balloon is a three dimensional object, but you're only using the surface of it which is really a curved, two-dimensional space.

honey badger · Nov 7, 2023

AlexB23 said:
In Isaiah 40:22, the author and prophet Isaiah stated: He [God] sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

This verse may refer to the expanding universe described by Edwin Hubble (source 1) and the Belgian priest/astronomer Georges Lemaître during the 1920s (source 2). Fast forward to the end of the 20th century, and most scientists agree that the universe is getting bigger. Galaxies farther away tend to move faster, and away from us. Think of the universe as a balloon with galaxies drawn on it and someone inflates it. As time progresses, the objects on the balloon get pulled farther apart, or stretched in distance. Gravity holds together the individual galaxies, but the distance between any two galaxies typically increases.

Note that this thread is primarily directed to Old-Earth Creationists (OECs), though Young-Earth Creationists (YECs) may chime in as well. It is just splendid that the Bible has support with science. Isaiah was written circa 700 BC, and it took all the way until the late 1920s for astrophysicists to determine our universe is expanding, while a prophet knew this information 2600 years before science could catch up.

Source 1: Our Expanding Universe: Age, History & Other Facts
Source 2: Georges Lemaître - The Society of Catholic Scientists

View attachment 338926

taken literally ... do you also believe yourself to be a grasshopper ?

AlexB23 · Nov 7, 2023

Derf said:
I think that sounds somewhat reasonable. But it seems like the metaphor of a tent being spread out is not at all like your illustration of a balloon being blown up. Both are lacking in dimensional clarity. What I mean is that a tent is a two-dimensional object that is laid out on a horizontal plane (length and width), and then lifted by poles to add the third dimension. A balloon is a three dimensional object, but you're only using the surface of it which is really a curved, two-dimensional space.

Well, the metaphor is perfect. Both balloons and tents get bigger, just as Hubble and Lemaître say. You missed the point. The Bible predicted what scientists discovered nearly 26 centuries later.

AlexB23 · Nov 7, 2023

honey badger said:
taken literally ... do you also believe yourself to be a grasshopper ?

Irrelevant. Grasshoppers have nothing to deal with universe expansion rates, but more to how tiny we are as a human society versus the age and size of the universe. Grasshopper means we are small, and insignificant compared to the scale of the universe. The Solar System is billions of miles/km across, while the universe is billions of light years across. A light year is about 6 trillion miles (10 trillion km).

Derf · Nov 7, 2023

AlexB23 said:
Well, the metaphor is perfect. Both balloons and tents get bigger, just as Hubble and Lemaître say. You missed the point. The Bible predicted what scientists discovered nearly 26 centuries later.

Well, I can see why you might say that it predicted scientific discoveries, and I tend to agree with you, but my point was that spreading out a tent isn't the same thing as an expanding universe, so it's up to us to figure out how it could mean the same thing as what we see in an expanding universe.

For instance, when a tent is spread out, it doesn't get the material doesn't get bigger, the fabric is just unfolded and opened up to it's actual size. any particular marking on the tent material doesn't change size or shape, but scientists think the fabric (not a pun, but their actual words) of space-time is expanding.

AlexB23 · Nov 7, 2023

Derf said:
Well, I can see why you might say that it predicted scientific discoveries, and I tend to agree with you, but my point was that spreading out a tent isn't the same thing as an expanding universe, so it's up to us to figure out how it could mean the same thing as what we see in an expanding universe.

For instance, when a tent is spread out, it doesn't get the material doesn't get bigger, the fabric is just unfolded and opened up to it's actual size. any particular marking on the tent material doesn't change size or shape, but scientists think the fabric (not a pun, but their actual words) of space-time is expanding.

Yeah, but close enough. Just trying to say that science and the Bible are compatible. Are you an OEC? You seem to be more of a YEC, which this post is meant for my fellow OECs.

Derf · Nov 7, 2023

AlexB23 said:
Yeah, but close enough. Just trying to say that science and the Bible are compatible.

Science, yes. Scientists, not always.

AlexB23 said:
Are you an OEC? You seem to be more of a YEC, which this post is meant for my fellow OECs.

Is there something about my posts that make it necessary to differentiate?

AlexB23 · Nov 7, 2023

Derf said:
Science, yes. Scientists, not always.

Is there something about my posts that make it necessary to differentiate?

Yeah, science can be compatible with the Bible.

For the second thing, it just seemed that you shrugged off Isaiah 40:22 as being a prediction for the universe getting bigger, or dismissed it. Do you think our universe has stopped growing, or is just a constant size or young?

Derf · Nov 7, 2023

AlexB23 said:
Yeah, science can be compatible with the Bible.

For the second thing, it just seemed that you shrugged off Isaiah 40:22 as being a prediction for the universe getting bigger, or dismissed it. Do you think our universe has stopped growing, or is just a constant size or young?

You seem to be saying that we can believe the bible BECAUSE science is reaching the same conclusions, yet you cite poetic scripture that might not be meant to convey anything more than a metaphorical idea in the first place. So before you jump to the conclusion that Isaiah wrote scientifically, it would be good to consider why those who don't even take the creation, written in narrative form, literally might want to take poetic form literally.

honey badger · Nov 8, 2023

AlexB23 said:
Irrelevant. Grasshoppers have nothing to deal with universe expansion rates, but more to how tiny we are as a human society versus the age and size of the universe. Grasshopper means we are small, and insignificant compared to the scale of the universe. The Solar System is billions of miles/km across, while the universe is billions of light years across. A light year is about 6 trillion miles (10 trillion km).

"them" in Isaiah 40:22 is referencing the people who are like grasshoppers

"Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple, and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?"

grasshoppers speak to a mentality of flesh (all flesh is like grass) which comes from the mixing of the heavenly and earthly seed which become as giants in our land which then causes us to become as grasshoppers in our own site ...

when we take the scriptures literally and apply earthly things to there meaning we fail to see the far greater truth ...

AlexB23 · Nov 8, 2023

Derf said:
You seem to be saying that we can believe the bible BECAUSE science is reaching the same conclusions, yet you cite poetic scripture that might not be meant to convey anything more than a metaphorical idea in the first place. So before you jump to the conclusion that Isaiah wrote scientifically, it would be good to consider why those who don't even take the creation, written in narrative form, literally might want to take poetic form literally.

I understand. The scripture may be poetic, but other folks in astronomy who are Christian have postulated the same thing, as Isaiah 40:22 refers to the universe getting bigger. Also, there is another verse about how the Earth is hung in nothingness. That refers to outer space, as there is almost nothing in space, just vast distances between objects.

Job 26:7 (NIV): He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; He suspends the earth over nothing.

Diamond72 · Apr 3, 2024

AlexB23 said:
In Isaiah 40:22, the author and prophet Isaiah stated: He [God] sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

This verse may refer to the expanding universe described by Edwin Hubble

The very first letter in the Bible: B represents a tent and this sets the pace for the entire Bible where God is stretching out a tent to dwell in. He wants to be a part of HIs creation. Jesus is the door keeper.

John 10:9 (NIV), Jesus says: "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."

God showed me the Universe is drifting apart but at some point in time it will all come back together again. Of course in science the shrinking Universe is just a theory and has not been proven.

AlexB23 · Apr 3, 2024

Diamond7 said:
The very first letter in the Bible: B represents a tent and this sets the pace for the entire Bible where God is stretching out a tent to dwell in. He wants to be a part of HIs creation. Jesus is the door keeper.

John 10:9 (NIV), Jesus says: "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."

God showed me the Universe is drifting apart but at some point in time it will all come back together again. Of course in science the shrinking Universe is just a theory and has not been proven.

John 10:9 (NIV), Jesus says: "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."

This verse relates to being saved, not the expansion or shrinking of the universe. Whatever the case, God bless. We will eventually know, if science ever catches up, or when we reach heaven.

For OECs (Old-Earth Creationists only): Isaiah 40:22 & the universe's expansion

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