Fishing during the new heavens and new earth?

[DavidPT]

I can just see everyone scratching their head---what???

Allow me to explain then as to what I'm meaning. By comparing the following passages, it is undeniable that these things are involving the same time period, the new heavens and new earth.

Ezekiel 47:7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.


And by the river(a pure river of water of life Revelation 22:1) upon the bank thereof

on this side and on that side(and on either side of the river Revelation 22:2)

shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed(the tree of life Revelation 22:2)

it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months(which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month Revelation 22:2), because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary(a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb Revelation 22:1)

and the leaf thereof for medicine( and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations Revelation 22:2)

If none of this undeniably proves that both accounts are involving the same things, the same time period, then I give up.

Now that is has been established the same time period is in view, we come to the part about fishing.

And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.


The first thing to keep in mind, when one is fishing like this, they are obviously not doing it for sport, they are doing it with the intentions of eating the fish. And in order to eat fish, that obviously means death is still taking place, at least in regards to the fish.

Plus, note what verse 11 states---But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt. Keeping in mind this is meaning during the NHNE. How do Amils, for example, or even Premils as well, explain why there would be miry and marishes that aren't healed, but given to salt instead, during the time of the NHNE?

And those that take the following literally---and there was no more sea(Revelation 21:1)--- how then do they explain, that according to Ezekiel 47:8, there is still a sea?---These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.


One last point to make--- whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed(Ezekiel 47:12)
That is describing something that has no end of. That is what is meant by that. How can it not be? And since it has to be , how can it not be meaning the same tree of life recorded in Revelation 22:2 since there is nothing else to compare with other than this? Obviously, something that can't be consumed does not involve something finite, but involves something endless. Therefore, if what I submitted above is not proof both accounts are involving the same things, the same time period, the everlasting NHNE, this should be proof enough though, since you can't have something that cannot be consumed fitting in an age that is finite.

 

[Brother-Mike]

My own position would be to remain humble and open as to the nature of reality and our life in NHNE - that said I would think that if there ISN'T fishing then there will be something better to occupy your new self.

 

[DavidPT]

My own position would be to remain humble and open as to the nature of reality and our life in NHNE - that said I would think that if there ISN'T fishing then there will be something better to occupy your new self.

A point I meant to make in the OP but neglected to, is this.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

this verse says---and there shall be no more death. With that in mind, like I pointed out in the OP, with them fishing like that they are obviously intending on eating what they catch, which means death is still taking place, at least in regards to the fish. Yet, this verse says there is no more death. Shouldn't this mean we shouldn't always apply everything universally when there can maybe be exceptions?

 

[HTacianas]

I can just see everyone scratching their head---what???

Allow me to explain then as to what I'm meaning. By comparing the following passages, it is undeniable that these things are involving the same time period, the new heavens and new earth.

Ezekiel 47:7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.


And by the river(a pure river of water of life Revelation 22:1) upon the bank thereof

on this side and on that side(and on either side of the river Revelation 22:2)

shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed(the tree of life Revelation 22:2)

it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months(which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month Revelation 22:2), because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary(a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb Revelation 22:1)

and the leaf thereof for medicine( and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations Revelation 22:2)

If none of this undeniably proves that both accounts are involving the same things, the same time period, then I give up.

Now that is has been established the same time period is in view, we come to the part about fishing.

And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.


The first thing to keep in mind, when one is fishing like this, they are obviously not doing it for sport, they are doing it with the intentions of eating the fish. And in order to eat fish, that obviously means death is still taking place, at least in regards to the fish.

Plus, note what verse 11 states---But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt. Keeping in mind this is meaning during the NHNE. How do Amils, for example, explain why there would be miry and marishes that aren't healed, but given to salt instead, during the time of the NHNE?

And those that take the following literally---and there was no more sea(Revelation 21:1)--- how then do they explain, that according to Ezekiel 47:8, there is still a sea?---These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.


One last point to make--- whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed(Ezekiel 47:12)
That is describing something that has no end of. That is what is meant by that. How can it not be? And since it has to be , how can it not be meaning the same tree of life recorded in Revelation 22:2 since there is nothing else to compare with other than this? Obviously, something that can't be consumed does not involve something finite, but involves something endless. Therefore, if what I submitted above is not proof both accounts are involving the same things, the same time period, the everlasting NHNE, this should be proof enough though, since you can't have something that cannot be consumed fitting in an age that is finite.

It's probably a case of the new heaven and new earth being something different than people imagine it to be. For example, why does God need a throne to sit on? Why are there trumpets in heaven? There is no need for a throne and there is no need for trumpets. The ancients viewed rulers as sitting on thrones and trumpets as a mean of sounding alarms. They are to us merely artifacts from a time long ago.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Jesus cooked and ate fish with his resurrected body.

 

[Carl Emerson]

you can't have something that cannot be consumed fitting in an age that is finite.

You just described Jesus...

 

[grafted branch]

The first thing to keep in mind, when one is fishing like this, they are obviously not doing it for sport, they are doing it with the intentions of eating the fish. And in order to eat fish, that obviously means death is still taking place, at least in regards to the fish.

Or they could be fishers of men.

 

[DavidPT]

Jesus cooked and ate fish with his resurrected body.

Couldn't it be argued, the fact, eating fish requires that death is still taking place, that this contradicts that there is no more death, thus they aren't describing the same time period after all? Not that I would argue that myself, but that maybe others might. And if they did, would it even be a valid argument the fact it is plainly obvious both accounts are involving the same things, the same time period, the everlasting new heavens and new earth after the new Jerusalem comes down from God in heaven in the future?

 

[DavidPT]

Or they could be fishers of men.

I guess that depends on what age one thinks the new heavens and new earth in Revelation 21-22 are being applied to. If this age, what you propose makes sense, in that case. If the next age though, meaning after Christ returns, why would there still be a need for fishers of men throughout all eternity?

 

[Carl Emerson]

This reminds me of a short story...

Guy loves fishing - fished every spare moment, his life was fishing.

Passing into the next life he was taken to a beautiful stream given a beautiful rod, net, waders, fly's the lot - top class.

Walks to the first pool, casts, and lands a beautiful trout.

This was heaven for him... perfect...

Then he saw another pool down stream, I'll try down there he thought. But the voice said... "The Master wouldn't like that."

 

[David's Harp]

This reminds me of a short story...

Guy loves fishing - fished every spare moment, his life was fishing.

Passing into the next life he was taken to a beautiful stream given a beautiful rod, net, waders, fly's the lot - top class.

Walks to the first pool, casts, and lands a beautiful trout.

This was heaven for him... perfect...

Then he saw another pool down stream, I'll try down there he thought. But the voice said... "The Master wouldn't like that."

Hi Carl, What's the moral here in the story? Am I right in reading it as: Once you've found heaven don't look elsewhere?

 

[David's Harp]

Couldn't it be argued, the fact, eating fish requires that death is still taking place, that this contradicts that there is no more death, thus they aren't describing the same time period after all? Not that I would argue that myself, but that maybe others might. And if they did, would it even be a valid argument the fact it is plainly obvious both accounts are involving the same things, the same time period, the everlasting new heavens and new earth after the new Jerusalem comes down from God in heaven in the future?

I don't have a great deal of knowledge on this, and there's different thought around the chronology, but another view could be that Ezekiel relates to the Millennial Kingdom, while Revelation relates to New Jerusalem.

 

[grafted branch]

I guess that depends on what age one thinks the new heavens and new earth in Revelation 21-22 are being applied to. If this age, what you propose makes sense, in that case. If the next age though, meaning after Christ returns, why would there still be a need for fishers of men throughout all eternity?

I know at least some of the Amils here do interpret NHNE as a different age so maybe they will respond to this question.

 

[DavidPT]

You just described Jesus...

If you are proposing that Jesus and the tree and life are one and the same, I disagree with that for a number of reasons. One reason is this.

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


Verse 1 locates Jesus sitting on the throne. Verse 2 locates the tree of life being on both sides of the river, not on the throne instead. Not to mention, can't imagine, assuming the tree of life might be meaning Jesus, that Jesus would be being decribed in the following manner--- which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month.

Plus, there is also the following where Jesus is the speaker.

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

This doesn't give the impression, since Jesus is the speaker, that He is meaning Himself, that He is the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

The way I view this, right or wrong, man lost access to the tree of life when man fell in the beginning, and that Jesus restores man back to the tree of life, which means man is now able to live forever, since man, meaning the saved, will have access to the tree of life for ever. We saw what happened when man lost access to the tree of life. Man began to die and continues to die until the tree of life is once again restored to man. Which doesn't happen until after Christ returns first. In the meantime, everyone continues to die. Whether the tree of life is a literal tree or not, that, I don't know. But what I do know is, that I'm pretty certain it isn't meaning Christ.

If you meant something else instead, oh well, too late now, I already posted what I did, me assuming you might be taking Jesus to mean the tree of life.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Hi Carl, What's the moral here in the story? Am I right in reading it as: Once you've found heaven don't look elsewhere?

No... it is much more chilling...

You idol becomes your God and traps you eternally. He thought he was upstairs only to discover he went down to the hell of an eternally repeating what he had foolishly put in the place of God.

No theology in it - just a reminder that Idolatry separates one's self from the goodness of God.

 

[Carl Emerson]

If you are proposing that Jesus and the tree and life are one and the same

I'm not...

I was simply saying that Jesus proved Himself indestructible in a finite world.

 

[DavidPT]

I don't have a great deal of knowledge on this, and there's different thought around the chronology, but another view could be that Ezekiel relates to the Millennial Kingdom, while Revelation relates to New Jerusalem.

I'm Premil myself, and that most Premils, not not necessarily including me, don't agree that the tree of life is in view during the millennium. Yet, according to what is recorded in Ezekiel 47 that I submitted in the OP, the tree of life is clearly in view since only the tree of life can be describing a tree, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed. Maybe these Premils need to do what I do in this case? That the thousand years parallel the new heavens and new earth, meaning the thousand years are the first thousand years of the everlasting new heavens and new earth.

 

[Blade]

Yeah I personally don't think so. I guess you could play with the fish try to catch it with out any hook lol. What fish would want that? Were in for a shock at what can think and talk.. not like us yet like before the fall blah blah blah. Walk on grass that sings praises to the Father.. everything He makes is alive. Like if you stop them even the rocks will cry out. Now we have to really dig into that and say "no no He didn't really mean the rocks would cry out". That is exactly what He meant. ALL of creation is alive.

Just search the word study about the Earth. You come away with.. its alive!

 

[Eloy Craft]

Can there be decay, corruption, on the new earth? decay and corruption is part of God's creation since it began.

But...
Nothing had to die for humans to live in the Garden of Eden.

 

[DavidPT]

But...
Nothing had to die for humans to live in the Garden of Eden.

Before God created man He had already created fish. Everyone pretty much knows that some fish eat other fish, thus death. Should we assume that that never began happening until after man fell first? Or should we assume it's a fact of life since the beginning of them, meaning fish, that some of them are going to eat one another and that God had intended for them to do so, thus He created them with that nature? Which means death was already taking place before man fell, assuming the latter.