Excommunicated and Heretical Saints

[Standing Up]

Is it possible for the Church to excommunicate and declare heretical a Saint?

Do we know of any examples?

How would that scenario impact the idea of praying to the Saints?

How would that scenario impact the idea of the unity of the Body of Christ?

 

[MrPolo]

You mean after a saint was canonized the Church turned around and called them a heretic? I'm not aware of an example.

To your point, there have been some "saints" that are under suspicion of not having existed. These were not formally canonized but known among the faithful as a "saint." (whether or not it's true they didn't exist I don't know for sure) But let's say I pray to a Saint Jimbo who didn't really exist. This would have no effect whatsoever on the validity of praying to actual saints, nor would it harm the Body of Christ. The effect would be tantamount to you or I praying in earnest to God for something that would not be His will. He would see the genuineness of your prayer and consider your heart pure, even if you were mistaken. And God may well give you grace for it.

For anyone who is too scared they might pray to a saint that didn't exist, that person could stick with St. Padre Pio of whom we have video footage and the testimony of people who met him. Or St. Gianna. Or if one thinks that the videos or photos are doctored, one can pray to Moses, Elijah, or St. Michael the Archangel who Scripture attests as being in heaven.

 

[bbbbbbb]

This reminds of Saint Expedite ( Saint Expedite ). According to a Catholic friend of mine who spent considerable time working in New Orleans some years ago a large packing crate arrived and was delivered to a warehouse. All of the delivery information associated with the crate had been lost in transit. When, after some time, nobody arrived to claim it, the workers opened it, hoping to find some information inside. Unfortunately, all they found was a carefully packed marble statue of what appeared to be a saint. Not knowing which saint it was they decided it must be Saint Expedite and began praying to him to expedite their prayers (see the website for further confirmation). As a result, only in New Orleans (that is in the United States) is Saint Expedite honored and prayed to. So, if you want to get your prayers to God pronto, you should pray to Saint Expedite. He'll get the job done, guaranteed.

 

[Glorthac]

It has never happened, and will never happen.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I enjoy the mutually exclusive lists of saints that various denominations such as the RCC and the EOC have. A very warm place will freeze over before either side will recognize the other's saints (that is, those saints that were canonized followed the denunciation and departure of the other side of the debate). Thus, one church considers the other's saints to be heretical, not because they actually were, but because they happened to have been born into the wrong denomination.

 

[Standing Up]

What about deceased Saints? Is it possible to declare them heretical and/or excommunicate them? Or is it only for the living?

 

[mont974x4]

Is it possible for the Church to excommunicate and declare heretical a Saint?

Do we know of any examples?

How would that scenario impact the idea of praying to the Saints?

How would that scenario impact the idea of the unity of the Body of Christ?

It really depends on how you are defining saints and what church you are talking about.

Many people that the biblical definition of a saint would fit have been declared heretics and thrown out of denominations and faith groups. Just because the pope or other respective church leader has declared someone a heretic or whatever does not mean they are. If the person really was a heretic or false teacher does not impact the unity of the body. If I have dirt on me and I wash it off it does not mean the dirt was ever a part of me and my body is actually healthier for its removal.

 

[jckstraw72]

I enjoy the mutually exclusive lists of saints that various denominations such as the RCC and the EOC have. A very warm place will freeze over before either side will recognize the other's saints (that is, those saints that were canonized followed the denunciation and departure of the other side of the debate). Thus, one church considers the other's saints to be heretical, not because they actually were, but because they happened to have been born into the wrong denomination.

technically a heretic is only someone who was once Orthodox and then consciously went against the Church's teachings, refusing to repent of his heresy, so someone born a Catholic may have heretical beliefs but is not technically a heretic. as for Catholic Saints, we just don't pass judgment. its not our call. this same idea exists with our own Saints -- we let the Greek Church canonize Greeks, and the Russians canonize Russians -- we dont jump into the affairs of the other local churches.

 

[Christos Anesti]

Thus, one church considers the other's saints to be heretical, not because they actually were, but because they happened to have been born into the wrong denomination.

We do not recognize Roman Catholic saints officially as saints because they are not visibly in communion with our Church which we hold to be the one holy catholic and apostolic church. That doesn't mean we say they are all heretics.

 

[bbbbbbb]

technically a heretic is only someone who was once Orthodox and then consciously went against the Church's teachings, refusing to repent of his heresy, so someone born a Catholic may have heretical beliefs but is not technically a heretic. as for Catholic Saints, we just don't pass judgment. its not our call. this same idea exists with our own Saints -- we let the Greek Church canonize Greeks, and the Russians canonize Russians -- we dont jump into the affairs of the other local churches.

Thank you for the clarification. For some of us, the absence of recognition or canonization of saints outside of one's church tradition appears to be a de facto act of rejection based not upon the merits of the individual, but upon the fact that they are not part of their own faith tradition. If one church has excommunicated another formally, then all the members of that church are excommunicated and their personal beliefs are irrelevant unless they repent of the heresy of the church and join the other church. Thus, no Lutheran saint will ever be canonized by the Catholic church until the Lutheran church submits itself to the authority of the Pope.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=Standing Up; Is it possible for the Church to excommunicate and declare heretical a Saint?

It happened to me.
,... well, almost.
I walked before they made me run.

How would that scenario impact the idea of praying to the Saints?

Nobody's ever prayed to me, so I could only guess.

How would that scenario impact the idea of the unity of the Body of Christ?

It would rule out dinner & a movie.

 

[christianmomof3]

This reminds of Saint Expedite ( Saint Expedite ). According to a Catholic friend of mine who spent considerable time working in New Orleans some years ago a large packing crate arrived and was delivered to a warehouse. All of the delivery information associated with the crate had been lost in transit. When, after some time, nobody arrived to claim it, the workers opened it, hoping to find some information inside. Unfortunately, all they found was a carefully packed marble statue of what appeared to be a saint. Not knowing which saint it was they decided it must be Saint Expedite and began praying to him to expedite their prayers (see the website for further confirmation). As a result, only in New Orleans (that is in the United States) is Saint Expedite honored and prayed to. So, if you want to get your prayers to God pronto, you should pray to Saint Expedite. He'll get the job done, guaranteed.

 

[Standing Up]

Thank you for the clarification. For some of us, the absence of recognition or canonization of saints outside of one's church tradition appears to be a de facto act of rejection based not upon the merits of the individual, but upon the fact that they are not part of their own faith tradition. If one church has excommunicated another formally, then all the members of that church are excommunicated and their personal beliefs are irrelevant unless they repent of the heresy of the church and join the other church. Thus, no Lutheran saint will ever be canonized by the Catholic church until the Lutheran church submits itself to the authority of the Pope.

So an example might be Luther? Where, I guess, RC or EO don't declare him a saint, but P does?

 

[Standing Up]

It happened to me.
,... well, almost.
I walked before they made me run.

Nobody's ever prayed to me, so I could only guess.
It would rule out dinner & a movie.

Funny stuff. Good point though, as mentioned in the other post, I guess Luther for example is no saint according to some.

 

[Standing Up]

I saw in the other thread (http://www.christianforums.com/t7470900/) that it's Saint Polycarp.

He practiced easter differently than the roman church.

 

[Rick Otto]

I saw in the other thread (http://www.christianforums.com/t7470900/) that it's Saint Polycarp.

He practiced easter differently than the roman church.

There ya go.
Still, didn't another student of an apostle, go for the Sunday Easter?
My point being that "apostolic succession" is, or at least has become, a bloated concept full of anti-spiritual, pro-religious ideas?
It offers bogus assurances to the flesh, placing more importance on physical details of succession rather than spiritual details of succession.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

There ya go.
Still, didn't another student of an apostle, go for the Sunday Easter?
My point being that "apostolic succession" is, or at least has become, a bloated concept full of anti-spiritual, pro-religious ideas?
It offers bogus assurances to the flesh, placing more importance on physical details of succession rather than spiritual details of succession.

I rather like the EOs view of Apostolic Succession over the RCCs view

http://www.christianforums.com/t7396713/
A question regarding Apostolic Succession

 

[Standing Up]

There ya go.
Still, didn't another student of an apostle, go for the Sunday Easter?
My point being that "apostolic succession" is, or at least has become, a bloated concept full of anti-spiritual, pro-religious ideas?
It offers bogus assurances to the flesh, placing more importance on physical details of succession rather than spiritual details of succession.

Not really about apostolic succession, but about a Saint that was later declared heretical and excommunicated by Nicea and other Councils.

I'm wondering whether that concept (excommunication) works in reverse, works against a Saint already dead?

OTOH, it is weird for a denomination to have a Saint who that same denomination also excommunicated?!

Trying to wrap the head around the concept.

Anyone?

 

[Standing Up]

You mean after a saint was canonized the Church turned around and called them a heretic? I'm not aware of an example.

It has never happened, and will never happen.

I'd say Saint Polycarp is an example. That it did happen.

He also learned his practice from apostles John and Phillip, according to Irenaeus. Does that mean the Church excommunicated and declared heretical those apostles?

 

[Christos Anesti]

St Polycarp the Hieromartyr lived his life in communion with the Church and was never excommunicated. He lived before the Church expressed it's teaching on the issue in Ecumenical Council. The anathema falls on the people who are obstinate in their belief after having been shown the error of their way by the Church. St Polycarp was a loyal member of the Church and I have no reason to believe that he would have held to his own opinion over that of the Church in Council if he were around when it took place.

We have Icons of him and venerate him so obviously we don't hold him to be a heretic despite his understanding of the issue of Pascha.