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Evolutionists: no idea is so good, that it can't be messed up in practice (receive?)

Gottservant

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Hi there,

So this simple truth was on television, and I thought it was quite apt:
No idea is so good, that it can't be messed up in practice
What are you doing about that, in the context of Evolution?

I thought about it for a moment, and imagined one of you saying "that's what we mean by mutation: when something mutates, it is getting messed up", but then I thought 'you are just saying messed up is good' that's not what is being said by the quote. What is being said (at least in the context of Evolution), is that even the perfect mutation, can in principle become cancerous. You still need to deal with the fact, that something may never 'evolve'. You may say "we can't", but that is decrying the negative - almost everything has a positive solution, you would have to prove that Evolution is distinctly optional, in the sense that survival is not dependent on it.

So if survival is not dependent on Evolution, there is no way to evaluate what is 'fit'. That is the vulnerability: 'fitness is subjective'. This is sad, because you would like to be able to evaluate your standing, whether against a predator or merely amongst your species and the fact that 'Evolution can't save you' is tentatively offered as a comfort in this context, does not explain that many species flourish on the idea that the other species with them, are there as prey. There is a need for a concept that is proxy, to survival, that comes or goes depending on how successful Evolution is: an Evolution that just remains in place, is a dead Evolution?

The answer may well be, that species rely far more on numbers, than they do on varying adaptations. That would make sense, given that we don't see species changing from one to the other, in the numbers (sic) that would justify Evolution as a viable ethos. That does not mean Evolution doesn't bring strengths together, just that we should expect that actually. An Evolution that brings strengths together, is a flourishing Evolution. That being the case, there is room to be picky, and being picky being attractive to a mate, who will bear the young. In this sense, I do believe in Evolution, because it adds to the species in question, without necessitating that strengths be found elsewhere, or absurdly along a path that meanders between species.
No idea is so good, that it can't be messed up practice
But no concept is so weak, it can't gather strength from experience
Probably finding that strength (that Evolution gathers) is harder, than simply committing to it for a moment - but at least we can have confidence that in most places, it can be found! That is the true Evolution, helping all species do that.
 

Bradskii

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Hi there,

So this simple truth was on television, and I thought it was quite apt:

What are you doing about that, in the context of Evolution?

I thought about it for a moment, and imagined one of you saying "that's what we mean by mutation: when something mutates, it is getting messed up", but then I thought 'you are just saying messed up is good' that's not what is being said by the quote. What is being said (at least in the context of Evolution), is that even the perfect mutation, can in principle become cancerous. You still need to deal with the fact, that something may never 'evolve'. You may say "we can't", but that is decrying the negative - almost everything has a positive solution, you would have to prove that Evolution is distinctly optional, in the sense that survival is not dependent on it.

So if survival is not dependent on Evolution, there is no way to evaluate what is 'fit'. That is the vulnerability: 'fitness is subjective'. This is sad, because you would like to be able to evaluate your standing, whether against a predator or merely amongst your species and the fact that 'Evolution can't save you' is tentatively offered as a comfort in this context, does not explain that many species flourish on the idea that the other species with them, are there as prey. There is a need for a concept that is proxy, to survival, that comes or goes depending on how successful Evolution is: an Evolution that just remains in place, is a dead Evolution?

The answer may well be, that species rely far more on numbers, than they do on varying adaptations. That would make sense, given that we don't see species changing from one to the other, in the numbers (sic) that would justify Evolution as a viable ethos. That does not mean Evolution doesn't bring strengths together, just that we should expect that actually. An Evolution that brings strengths together, is a flourishing Evolution. That being the case, there is room to be picky, and being picky being attractive to a mate, who will bear the young. In this sense, I do believe in Evolution, because it adds to the species in question, without necessitating that strengths be found elsewhere, or absurdly along a path that meanders between species.


Probably finding that strength (that Evolution gathers) is harder, than simply committing to it for a moment - but at least we can have confidence that in most places, it can be found! That is the true Evolution, helping all species do that.

You need to do some studying:
Australia Archives | National Geographic Kids
 
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Shemjaza

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Hi there,

So this simple truth was on television, and I thought it was quite apt:

No idea is so good, that it can't be messed up in practice

What are you doing about that, in the context of Evolution?

Evolution isn't an action or practice that an individual does, so nothing.

Over many generation a species could adapt to a very specialised niche, but if the environment changed significantly then the species might not be able to adapt to the changes and go extinct.


I thought about it for a moment, and imagined one of you saying "that's what we mean by mutation: when something mutates, it is getting messed up", but then I thought 'you are just saying messed up is good' that's not what is being said by the quote. What is being said (at least in the context of Evolution), is that even the perfect mutation, can in principle become cancerous. You still need to deal with the fact, that something may never 'evolve'. You may say "we can't", but that is decrying the negative - almost everything has a positive solution, you would have to prove that Evolution is distinctly optional, in the sense that survival is not dependent on it.

If a mutation does create an advantage, then it isn't cancerous, because that would be a disadvantage. Certainly not what you'd call "perfect".

Also, you are bringing up your mistakes again:
Individuals do not evolve. Species evolve.

In the long term survival does depend on evolution, because the environment and eco system is constantly changing, and a species that does not adapt will eventually not be able to survive.

So if survival is not dependent on Evolution, there is no way to evaluate what is 'fit'. That is the vulnerability: 'fitness is subjective'. This is sad, because you would like to be able to evaluate your standing, whether against a predator or merely amongst your species and the fact that 'Evolution can't save you' is tentatively offered as a comfort in this context, does not explain that many species flourish on the idea that the other species with them, are there as prey. There is a need for a concept that is proxy, to survival, that comes or goes depending on how successful Evolution is: an Evolution that just remains in place, is a dead Evolution?

Nonsense. Fitness is absolutely objective.

Traits that confer a statistical advantage will more likely to be passed on.

There is no such thing as "an evolution". It's a physical process and a scientific theory about the process. It is not a trait, a choice or a theology.

The answer may well be, that species rely far more on numbers, than they do on varying adaptations. That would make sense, given that we don't see species changing from one to the other, in the numbers (sic) that would justify Evolution as a viable ethos. That does not mean Evolution doesn't bring strengths together, just that we should expect that actually. An Evolution that brings strengths together, is a flourishing Evolution. That being the case, there is room to be picky, and being picky being attractive to a mate, who will bear the young. In this sense, I do believe in Evolution, because it adds to the species in question, without necessitating that strengths be found elsewhere, or absurdly along a path that meanders between species.

No idea is so good, that it can't be messed up practice

But no concept is so weak, it can't gather strength from experience

Probably finding that strength (that Evolution gathers) is harder, than simply committing to it for a moment - but at least we can have confidence that in most places, it can be found! That is the true Evolution, helping all species do that.

We do see species changing. We also have evidence of large scale changes over history.

Why would we expect it at a different rate?
 
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Gottservant

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Individuals do not evolve. Species evolve.
Yes but if I grow up deaf, my species is not affected listening, until it becomes clear that I am deaf to a predator that is no longer there - then the deafness is justified.

Do you understand what I am saying "just saying 'deafness' is not advantageous" only applies if there is nothing but sound to be deaf to?

You might say "as long as we have hearing, hearing can adapt to things missing" but then you are making the case for design, not 'Evolution'?

A species without individuals doesn't exist, anyway, so I don't even know in terms of Evolution why you try to make that point?
 
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Shemjaza

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Yes but if I grow up deaf, my species is not affected listening, until it becomes clear that I am deaf to a predator that is no longer there - then the deafness is justified.

Do you understand what I am saying "just saying 'deafness' is not advantageous" only applies if there is nothing but sound to be deaf to?

Deafness might be an advantage or it might not it depends on the environment.

However, that is only relevant to evolution if it is a genetic trait that can be passed onto offspring.

You might say "as long as we have hearing, hearing can adapt to things missing" but then you are making the case for design, not 'Evolution'?

If a trait is specifically developed to deal with an issue, then that would indicate design. However a varying trait that happens to be deal with the issue would be relevant to evolution.

It's about the mechanism and intent.

A species without individuals doesn't exist, anyway, so I don't even know in terms of Evolution why you try to make that point?

Yes, a species is made up of individuals, but that doesn't mean that changes in species wide attributes are changes to individuals. In an evolutionary context they are not.

An individual with a new advantageous trait was born with it, they do not undergo changes to develop it nor do they choose to have that adaptation.

Species don't evolve, they domesticate?

Domestication also does not apply to individuals.

Taming is the process of taking a wild animal and conditioning it to be around humans. Domestication is about long term changes to a population of animals until they become a new domestic variant.

A wolf who has been taught tricks is not domesticated and a dog in the wilds is still a domesticated animal.
 
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