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Eucharistic Adoration (Lutherans only please)

Is Eucharistic Adoration appropriate?

  • Of course, it is truly the Body and Blood of Jesus, after all!

  • No, it is (or borders on) idolotry

  • Other (please detail in post)

  • I am not a Lutheran, but I really feel the need to vote anyway


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Rechtgläubig

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"Take and eat; this is my body."

"On the other hand, we unanimously reject and condemn all the following erroneous articles, which are opposed and contrary to the doctrine presented above, the simple faith, and the [pure] confession concerning the Lord's Supper;

... That the external visible elements of the bread and wine should be adored in the Holy Sacrament." (Epitome of the Formula of Concord, VII. The Lord's Supper)
 
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Protoevangel

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Rechtgläubig said:
"Take and eat; this is my body."

"On the other hand, we unanimously reject and condemn all the following erroneous articles, which are opposed and contrary to the doctrine presented above, the simple faith, and the [pure] confession concerning the Lord's Supper;

... That the external visible elements of the bread and wine should be adored in the Holy Sacrament." (Epitome of the Formula of Concord, VII. The Lord's Supper)
Hi Reich, :wave:

I kinda knew that this would be the first kind of answer I would get. However, I have to respectfully disagree.

"Accordingly, with heart and mouth we reject and condemn as false, erroneous, and misleading all Sacramentarian opiniones (opinions) and doctrines which are not in accordance with, but contrary and opposed to, the doctrine above presented and founded upon God's Word:

...Likewise, when it is taught that the elements or the visible species or forms of the consecrated bread and wine must be adored. However, no one, unless he be an Arian heretic, can and will deny that Christ Himself, true God and man, who is truly and essentially present in the Supper, should be adored in spirit and in truth in the true use of the same, as also in all other places, especially where His congregation is assembled
." (Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord, VII, The Lord's Supper, 112, 126)

"For apart from the use, when the bread is laid aside and preserved in the sacramental vessel [the pyx], or is carried about in the procession and exhibited, as is done in popery, they do not hold that the body of Christ is present." (Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord, VII, The Lord's Supper, 15)

The Solid Declaration, while certianly condemning the adoring the bread and wine outside the use and action of the Sacrament (where there is no promise that Christ is there), also seems to uphold adoration within the Sacramental action (where Christ has promised that He is truly there).

"But he who does believe, as sufficient demonstration has shown it ought to be believed, can surely not withhold his adoration of the body and blood of Christ without sinning. For I must always confess that Christ is present when his body and blood are present." - Martin Luther (Luther's Works - American Edition, 36:294).

I am still not 100% on this, I certianly would be interested in your further thoughts on the matter.
 
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Rechtgläubig

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Are the bread and wine not also present?

"First, they [the papalists] say that the sacrament of the Eucharist itself, or the whole of that which was instituted by Christ that it might be received, should be adored with the cult of latria. But now the Eucharist, according to the dictum of Irenaeus, consists of two things, an earthly and a heavenly. Therefore also the earthly elements of bread and wine in the Eucharist would have to be adored with the cult of latria. This could in no way be excused or defended against the open charge of idolatry or bread worship. Therefore they invent their transubstantiation, lest the substance of the bread be at the same time worshiped. But because the opinion of transubstantiation is uncertain -- Paul asserts that it is bread also after the blessing, Theodoret says that the nature of the elements is not changed in the Eucharist, Gelasius teaches that they keep the property of their own nature -- therefore when it is taught that the whole of that which is present in the Eucharist and is distributed and received should be adored with the cult of latria, there are included at the same time also the elements of bread and wine, which can neither be worshiped without idolatry nor should be worshiped. Therefore, to beware of idolatry, a clear distinction must be made: Christ, God and man, present in His divine and human nature in the action of the Supper, should be worshiped; however, the substance or form of the elements of bread and wine should not be worshiped lest, beside the Creator, we worship also the creature (Rom. 1:25). Therefore the sacrament of the Eucharist is not to be worshiped in the same way in which, because of the personal union, we worship and venerate the humanity and the divinity in the person of Christ with one worship, for the union of the bread and of the body of Christ in the Supper is not personal; but because the Eucharist consists of two things, an earthly and a heavenly, worship and veneration is not to be directed to the earthly elements, bread and wine, but to Christ, God and man, who in this action decreed and promised His presence in a particular and gracious manner. So the Israelites worshiped, not the wood, not the gold, not the cherubim of the ark of the covenant, but God Himself only, who had promised His presence there. Neither is the worship of Christ to be tied or affixed to the elements of bread and wine, for He is not contained in them as being locally shut in. We eat the bread of the Supper reverently, but in our worship we look upon Christ Himself, supernaturally present in heavenly majesty in the Supper." (Martin Chemnitz, Examination of the Council of Trent)
 
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ByzantineDixie

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Dan, there was a discussion on LutherQuest about this same thing a while ago and there were some die hard Lutherans who agreed with your position--so you are in good company.

Think about it...even at my husband's LCMS Lutheran church, where the Table is open to anyone and the liturgy is aways "fresh and new" every week, the people bow at the rail before and after receiving. That is a form of adoration.

The problem I have is with this statement right here:

"For apart from the use, when the bread is laid aside and preserved in the sacramental vessel [the pyx], or is carried about in the procession and exhibited, as is done in popery, they do not hold that the body of Christ is present." (Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord, VII, The Lord's Supper, 15)

Who decided this? Where does this come from? Where in the early church was this ever believed? While I understand the concern was with the inappropriate use of the Sacrament for Corpus Christi parades and adoration apart from the Sacrament...whoever in the early church believed that if the Eucharist is misused it is no longer the Body and Blood of Christ? Seriously...if anyone has some references I would love to know how this BoC position is defended as catholic.

The Orthodox also believe that adoration apart from the sacrament is misuse but they* are not so bold as to determine when Christ is present and when He is not based on usage! This is one reason the Orthodox make the sign of the cross when passing an Orthodox church (or entering and exiting the church) because there is always reserve Eucharist stored.

* in just a little more than 2 weeks...I will no longer have to use the term "they" when speaking about the Orthodox...I will be able to use "we"!
 
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Ethan_Fetch

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The difference, BD, is that we believe that the sacramental act is only complete when the sacrament is faithfully received, so we kneel to receive it.

By themselves, outside this sacramental act, the elements ought to be carefully handled and preserved but not worshiped.
 
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ByzantineDixie

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Ethan_Fetch said:
The difference, BD, is that we believe that the sacramental act is only complete when the sacrament is faithfully received, so we kneel to receive it.

By themselves, outside this sacramental act, the elements ought to be carefully handled and preserved but not worshiped.

I do understand what Lutherans believe at this level but what I am trying to understand (and who knows why I never asked myself this question while I was Lutheran) is where the belief that the Body and Blood of Christ are no longer present after the Sacrament (when stored in a pyx).

I have read Luther on this and know this was his position but I am trying to find the link to antiquity...you know the whole “that we intend to create or accept no special or new confession of our faith”;“that no new interpretation is introduced here”;and that “we have said nothing new.” thing the BoC rests on.

Or are you saying the BoC is only talking about the Eucharist that was consecrated with no intention of eating or drinking? That is definitely understandable. The "undoing" of any reserve remaining from a proper consecration and distribution...however, is not.

Thanks for your comments.
 
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SPALATIN

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As I am about to embark on a four-year adventure in a Lutheran Seminary, I am going to plead neutral on this issue for now. I need to examine it a little bit more.

I presently cross myself before and after taking the Body and Blood, but as to whether it is something to be adored I am undecided.
 
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Philip

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Is the Eucharist worthy of adoration? Yes, it is the Body and Blood of Christ.

Is it appropriate to set aside a portion for adoration? No. Christ said, 'Take, eat.' and 'Take, drink.' The Eucharist is given to us as a means of grace. Its purpose is to be consumed. Note that this is why in Orthodoxy the Body and Blood are mixed together before being offer to the people. In the past, some would take the Body home with them to adore it instead of benefiting from its consumption.
 
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BigNorsk

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I don't have a lot of time on this, but first of all the practice was condemned because it was not the command of Christ. He did not say this is my body, parade it around and adore it, he said take it and eat.

Secondly, if you follow the discussions on how and when the Lord's body and blood are united and present with the elements we find the certainty of the union only when the Lord's commands are followed.

While I would argue for the real presence in Communion, we don't actually know that he is united when the elements are adored. It is outside his word and outside the institution. There is a fair chance that all that is present is bread and wine and so everyone is possibly just worshipping a piece of bread.

True worship of our Lord is not to substitute the teaching of men for his teaching, it is to obey him. When you take and eat and drink you are truly worshipping him in submission to his word and it is an example of true adoration.

Marv
 
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LutherNut

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I think a distinction needs to be made bewteen "adoration" and "reverence". Adoration refers to worship, bowing before, kneeling before, praying before. "Reverence" has more to do with respect and recognition than true adoration.

In the receiving of the Sacrament, we do kneel, bow, and pray, but not as an act of adoration for the elements, but rather for what Christ is giving to us, that being His very Body and Blood in, with, and under those elements. It is actually the person of Christ that we adore in the reception of the Sacrament, not the elements.

That being said, there is also reverence of the consecrated elements, that being proper care and handling during and after the Sacrament. Remaining consecrated host and wine should be handled and stored as if they are the very Body and Blood of Christ because we do not know when (or if) they ever stop being the Body and Blood of Christ. If a host is dropped during distribution, the pastor should immediately consume it. If the Blood is spilled, it should immediately be cleaned up. (I seem to remember stories where Luther had a woman's dress burned and a wood floor shaved and the shavings burned because the Blood of Christ was spilled on them.)

I was apalled at the LCMS youth gathering in Orlando in 2004. Not only were there teenagers distributing the Body of Christ, but when the elements were spilled or dropped, they were merely kicked aside or just walked on with no attempt to pick them up or clean the spills.

As far as processions and the like, the Body and Blood of Jesus are given to us to eat and drink. Any other use is misuse and is sinful.

My 2 pennies worth...
 
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IowaLutheran

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I voted "other" because, on the one hand, I do think the RC practice of praying for hours in front of the host does seem excessive. On the other hand, it is the body and blood of Christ. It is worthy of the highest respect and in my experience Lutherans do a poor job of showing that respect, so I think it would behoove us to be more like Catholics in terms of respect for the elements, but without the excess.
 
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SPALATIN

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Qoheleth said:
Sheesh.


Romaphobic Lutherans...

Gotta love `em

Why dont you just start your own inquisition and be done with it


Q

Having spent a few sessions of Chapel at Fort Wayne, I was able to witness a good example of High Church. Many could call it Romanistic but that is how church was done in Luther's time.

Now compare it to a church where the pomp and circumstance is all but absent and there is still a liturgy to follow.. The pastor of our church has been doing a reading from the Newspaper that follows the theme of his sermon each Wednesday service for Lent.

I find this rather sacreligious of him, but he is the Pastor and thankfully I don't have to spend too many more Sundays listening to his stuff now that I am seminary bound.

I don't know that I think we need to adore the elements in their consecrated form, but to behold with reverence and awe what God gives us through the Body and Blood of our saviour is more important to our faith.

I stop short of swimming the Tiber though I might occasionally float a boat to view what they are doing and then come back.
 
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Ethan_Fetch

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Qoheleth said:
Sheesh.


Romaphobic Lutherans...

Gotta love `em

Why dont you just start your own inquisition and be done with it


Q

No, I'd rather just make jokes...

Every time we try to fix a problem in the LCMS it always comes back to bite us...

For the record, I know "Fr." Fenton at Zion in Detroit and I like him a lot but I think he's dead wrong about a lot as well.

There is a difference between a high liturgy, regular Law and Gospel preaching, and some of the things Fenton and others are trying to bring in.

The Lutheran Reformation was not uniform. The Church in Nuremburg wasn't the same as the Church in Eisleben, but there are specifically Protestant distinctives which have their root in a specifically Lutheran Reformation though they may appear to be more common to other traditions.

I am not at all Romaphobic, there is a great deal we can learn from the RCC.

This just doesn't happen to be one of those things.
 
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Ethan_Fetch

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I'll go so far as to say this:

Until the elements are consumed by a Christian, it is not yet a Sacrament.

There's no "Hocus Pocus" just because the sacramental union is effected when the minister says the words, God makes the meal and not so we can have a golden calf to grovel to.
 
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Qoheleth

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Ethan said:
Every time we try to fix a problem in the LCMS it always comes back to bite us...

For the record, I know "Fr." Fenton at Zion in Detroit and I like him a lot but I think he's dead wrong about a lot as well.

There is a difference between a high liturgy, regular Law and Gospel preaching, and some of the things Fenton and others are trying to bring in.

Why does this concern me?

Is Fenton preaching and teaching heresy according to the Confessions?

What is it that he and others are trying to bring in?

Q
 
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SPALATIN

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Edial said:
Very good. :)

Planning on becoming a Pastor?

Ed

No, Thought I would take up plumbing. The money's good and I can let my pants hang down to give everyone a shot of my BC. (sorry I couldn't resist the old Snappy answer to stupid questions routine) ;)

Yes, LCMS-Radical Conservative Pastor.
 
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