Enoch

[tall73]

A couple of quotes from Ellen White regarding Enoch do not match up with the biblical record.

God determined to purify the world by a flood; but in mercy and love He gave the antediluvians a probation of one hundred and twenty years. During this time, while the ark was in building, the voices of Noah, Enoch [Methuselah], and many others were heard in warning and entreaty. And every blow struck on the ark was a warning message. {AUCR, September 15, 1902 par. 8}

She states that Enoch preached during the building of the ark, but he in fact was translated 69 years before Noah ever lived.






Now the above issue was addressed by the White Estate in a letter sent to a member on CARM the following way:

[FONT=&quot]The mistaken inclusion of Enoch's name was corrected when Ellen White published the same article five weeks later in "Signs of the Times," October 22, 1902 (and reprinted again in "Review and Herald," September 19, 1907), where the sentence reads:[/FONT]
​

”[FONT=&quot]God determined to purify the world by a flood; but in mercy and love he gave the antediluvians a probation of one hundred and twenty years. During this time, while the ark was building, the voices of Noah, Methuselah, and many others were heard in warning and entreaty, and every blow struck on the ark was a warning message."[/FONT]

Ellen White had mistakenly said Enoch instead of Methuselah was the explanation. Now for those who hold to thought inspiration rather than verbal that is not a big deal. In fact Ellen at another time put Enoch instead of Adam, but the context made it clear she meant Adam. That is fair enough.

However, another quote in which she was again confused on whether Enoch was around in the time of the ark was not addressed by the White Estate, though it was listed among the texts that were to be addressed in the question, and indeed, it is hard to say it was a mix-up:


Enoch's translation to Heaven just before the destruction of the world by a flood, represents the translation of all the living righteous from the earth previous to its destruction by fire. The saints will be glorified in the presence of those who have hated them for their loyal obedience to God's righteous commandments. {3SG 59.1}

There can't be any confusion here on who is meant, since the rest in the line of Noah were not translated.

She says his translation was just before the destruction of the world by a flood. However, Enoch's translation was actually 669 years before the flood.

 

[tall73]

The Chronological data for the above chart can be found here:

Gen 5:21 When Enoch had lived 65 years, he fathered Methuselah.
Gen 5:22 Enoch walked with God after he fathered Methuselah 300 years and had other sons and daughters.
Gen 5:23 Thus all the days of Enoch were 365 years.
Gen 5:24 Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him.
Gen 5:25 When Methuselah had lived 187 years, he fathered Lamech.
Gen 5:26 Methuselah lived after he fathered Lamech 782 years and had other sons and daughters.
Gen 5:27 Thus all the days of Methuselah were 969 years, and he died.
Gen 5:28 When Lamech had lived 182 years, he fathered a son
Gen 5:29 and called his name Noah, saying, "Out of the ground that the LORD has cursed this one shall bring us relief from our work and from the painful toil of our hands."
Gen 5:30 Lamech lived after he fathered Noah 595 years and had other sons and daughters.
Gen 5:31 Thus all the days of Lamech were 777 years, and he died.
Gen 5:32 After Noah was 500 years old, Noah fathered Shem, Ham, and Japheth.


Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.


I am pretty sure my calculations in the above chart are accurate, as others have come up with similar numbers in their own study but then I don't claim to be inspired, so please point out any mistakes.

In any case, the EGW Estate does recognize that Enoch was translated before Noah was born.

 

[tall73]

For reference purposes this is the letter that Geoff (an Adventist) got from the White Estate on the issue.

http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showpost.php?p=1840331&postcount=55



The following statement appears in an Ellen White article published in the "Review and Herald," April 29, 1875:

"Enoch first received instruction from Noah, and he observed the law of God, and served him with singleness of heart."

As Enoch had been translated long before the time of Noah, the question is asked as to whether Ellen White was confused about this fact. That Ellen White was fully aware of the correct Bible history is made clear by her full presentation of this period in "Patriarchs and Prophets," published in 1890, and in her earlier treatments in "Spiritual Gifts," vol. 3 (1864) and "Spirit of Prophecy," vol. 1 (1870).

The context of the sentence in question makes it clear that "Adam" rather than "Noah" is what was intended. A few lines before this sentence is the statement, "Those who lived before the flood were favored in having a knowledge of the law of God communicated to them by Adam who had conversed with God and angels in Eden."

The mistaken wording was corrected a few weeks after the article was published, when the "Review" printed the following "Errata" notice: "In Review and Herald, Vol. 45, No. 18, page 138, where it reads Enoch first received instruction from Noah, it should read, Enoch first received instruction from Adam."--RH July 29, 1875.

***************

In an Ellen White article first published in the (Australian) "Union Conference Record," Sept. 15, 1902, the statement appears:

"God determined to purify the world by a flood; but in mercy and love He gave the antediluvians a probation of one hundred and twenty years. During this time, while the ark was in building, the voices of Noah, Enoch, and many others were heard in warning and entreaty. And every blow struck on the ark was a warning message."

Since it is evident from her writings that Ellen White knew Enoch had already been translated by that time, this would appear to be an instance where she mistakenly wrote the name of "Enoch" for "Methusaleh," similar to when she credited a Scriptural quotation to Peter rather than to Paul (see RH October 30, 1913). For those holding what one writer has called a "strait-jacket" view of inspiration, such inconsequential "slips" may be troubling, but they are not inconsistent with how we understand the Holy Spirit to operate when communicating through imperfect, human messengers. (See "Infallibility: Does the True Prophet Ever Err?" by Dr. Roger W. Coon. Available online at http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/rev-insp.html#part2.)


The mistaken inclusion of Enoch's name was corrected when Ellen White published the same article five weeks later in "Signs of the Times," October 22, 1902 (and reprinted again in "Review and Herald," September 19, 1907), where the sentence reads:

"God determined to purify the world by a flood; but in mercy and love he gave the antediluvians a probation of one hundred and twenty years. During this time, while the ark was building, the voices of Noah, Methuselah, and many others were heard in warning and entreaty, and every blow struck on the ark was a warning message."



I don't see a big issue with the assessment that she put the wrong name in a couple of times. However there is no one that she could have been confused with for the other statement because no one else was translated.

 

[mva1985]

God's people will separate themselves from the unrighteous practices of those around them, and will seek for purity of thought, and holy conformity to his will, until his divine image will be reflected in them. Like Enoch they will be fitting for translation to Heaven. While they endeavor to instruct and warn the world, they will not conform to the spirit and customs of unbelievers, but will condemn them by their holy conversation and godly example. Enoch's translation to Heaven just before the destruction of the world by a flood, represents the translation of all the living righteous from the earth previous to its destruction by fire. The saints will be glorified in the presence of those who have hated them for their loyal obedience to God's righteous commandments. {3SG 59.1}
Enoch instructed his family in regard to the flood. Methuselah, the son of Enoch, listened to the preaching of his grandson, Noah, who faithfully warned the inhabitants of the old world that a flood of waters was coming upon the earth. Methuselah and his sons, and grandsons, lived in the time of the building of the ark. They, with some others, received
60
instruction from Noah, and assisted him in building the ark. {3SG 59.2}

Reading through this I do not see any problems. Sounds like you are nit-picking Tall.

 

[tall73]

God's people will separate themselves from the unrighteous practices of those around them, and will seek for purity of thought, and holy conformity to his will, until his divine image will be reflected in them. Like Enoch they will be fitting for translation to Heaven. While they endeavor to instruct and warn the world, they will not conform to the spirit and customs of unbelievers, but will condemn them by their holy conversation and godly example. Enoch's translation to Heaven just before the destruction of the world by a flood, represents the translation of all the living righteous from the earth previous to its destruction by fire. The saints will be glorified in the presence of those who have hated them for their loyal obedience to God's righteous commandments. {3SG 59.1}
Enoch instructed his family in regard to the flood. Methuselah, the son of Enoch, listened to the preaching of his grandson, Noah, who faithfully warned the inhabitants of the old world that a flood of waters was coming upon the earth. Methuselah and his sons, and grandsons, lived in the time of the building of the ark. They, with some others, received
60
instruction from Noah, and assisted him in building the ark. {3SG 59.2}

Reading through this I do not see any problems. Sounds like you are nit-picking Tall.

So if I understand you correctly, if you read through one passage unrelated to the discussion and don't see a problem then there is no problem?

The problem in this case is simply that Ellen White was not accurate on some aspects of biblical history in EACH of her statements.

Now those where it was just a wrong name, that is fine.

But that is not a satisfactory explanation for the other. If she is making spiritual points based on false conclusions then one wonders how her spiritual points are inspired.

Now the value of looking at these issues is two-fold, and there is value even for those who hold to EGW.

1. The question is raised of whether all of Ellen's statements are true.

2. The question is raised of the nature of inspiration.

 

[OntheDL]

Enoch's translation to Heaven just before the destruction of the world by a flood, represents the translation of all the living righteous from the earth previous to its destruction by fire. The saints will be glorified in the presence of those who have hated them for their loyal obedience to God's righteous commandments. {3SG 59.1}

There can't be any confusion here on who is meant, since the rest in the line of Noah were not translated.

She says his translation was just before the destruction of the world by a flood. However, Enoch's translation was actually 669 years before the flood.

So how many years do you suspect she meant? In hers and our perspective, 600 some years is relatively short considering the flood was about 5000 years ago.

Didn't Jesus said behold I come quickly some 2000 years ago? You don't have a problem with that?

 

[mva1985]

In reading the passage about Enoch being translated before the flood show me where the error is.....

Is your only problem with it is because she wrote "just before the flood" like two seconds before the flood God translated him?

Come on! He was translated before the flood and she makes no specific reference to how long before he was translated.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Didn't Jesus said behold I come quickly some 2000 years ago? You don't have a problem with that?

Behold I come quickly indicates the need to prepare rather then produce an expectation that nothing is going to happen for thousands of years. So the statement is for the benefit of the listener to live for God today. Such cannot be the case for EGW saying shortly before the flood for something that happened 6oo years before the flood.

Also using Ussher's Chronology from Creation to the flood is about 1700 years in which case 600 years before the flood is about 1/3 of the total time the earth had been in existence:

• 4004 BC - Creation
• 2348 BC - Noah's Flood

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ussher_chronology

 

[Jon0388g]

So how many years do you suspect she meant? In hers and our perspective, 600 some years is relatively short considering the flood was about 5000 years ago.

Didn't Jesus said behold I come quickly some 2000 years ago? You don't have a problem with that?

Yes I thought this too.


It seems Tall is hung up because Mrs White used the words 'just before' when to his perspective 600 or so years seems more than 'just before'.


One thing he hasn't appreciated are the ages these patriarchs lived to. Methuselah lived for almost 1000 years, living 300 years with his father Enoch, and passed away in the era of the Flood. So how many generations of Enoch passed until Flood era? One. Was Enoch translated 'just before' the Flood from the perspective of their life-expectancy? Oh yes.



Nit-picking at its finest.




Jon

 

[OntheDL]

One thing he hasn't appreciated are the ages these patriarchs lived to. Methuselah lived for almost 1000 years, living 300 years with his father Enoch, and passed away in the era of the Flood. So how many generations of Enoch passed until Flood era? One. Was Enoch translated 'just before' the Flood from the perspective of their life-expectancy? Oh yes.

Good point.

Nit-picking at its finest.

Probably nit-picking by some anti-Adventist sites.

 

[TrustAndObey]

If they're from a website, it'd be nice if Tall would go ahead and just give us the link so we can anticipate how many more of these threads he's going to start.

 

[tall73]

Good point.


Probably nit-picking by some anti-Adventist sites.

One need not wonder where the information for this particular issue came from when I stated it at the beginning.


Now, as to life expectancy,

You based the life expectancy off of Methuselah who was the oldest ever, rather than the average. Moreover, most people would not consider a life-time "just before."