Egalitarianism..

[MehGuy]

While I prefer that this thread does not morph into something too heated, I understand if the responses generate some tension. Saying this, I am curious how many people here have always considered themselves egalitarian? That the sexes should be treated equally? Furthermore, I am also curious if you grew up in a conservative, liberal or a mixed environment?

As for myself, I grew up in a conservative environment. Traditional gender roles were pushed on me, but I never personally subscribed to them. Strangely I never considered myself moral for being an egalitarian, it was just a natural response I had. It was never something I had to work on. I do respect those who do feel a strong urge for traditional gender roles but do not act on them, or at least pressure others to do so. Those people actually have to make a psychological sacrifice, and I applaud them for it.

Occasionally as man I will face out of nowhere ugly accusations that I want to control women and believe they should be submissive. I usually just have a blank stare for a few seconds and tell them no, I don't have these desires. Then they'll flat out call me a liar. Usually at this point I know it's hopeless to argue with them and I proceed to disengage with the conversation. Although, these accusations do make me wonder... how strong are the desires for gender roles in others?

I do know that some men do flat out state that they believe women should be submissive in society. Heck, I have had women develop crushes on me because they mistake my assertiveness and unwillingness to treat women as the gentler sex as an act of "dominance" when the psychology of my actions is the exact opposite. So, this yearning for dominance in men and submission in women is something that seems to be a psychological reality for some.

Makes me curious how many people fight these gender urges and how many find being an egalitarianism more of a natural state?

If you are a person who does not subscribe to egalitarianism, feel free to also post in this thread. Especially if you grew up in a liberal environment and felt like your stances were natural or have some other interesting back story. I cannot say the same for other posters, but I will probably not feel an urge to respond in anger. Instead, I am just genuinely curious how others view the world.

 

[PloverWing]

I grew up in a religious environment that enforced traditional gender roles, with a patriarchal authority structure. I'm old enough that this was prevalent in the secular culture as well. Mostly, I experienced this as a collection of restrictions -- what careers am I not allowed to have, what ministries am I not allowed to participate in in church, do I have to stop working outside the home if I become a parent, etc.

My understanding of Christian teaching grew and changed as I moved into adulthood, and the church itself was also wrestling with gender issues during these decades. I'm firmly egalitarian now, as is my church.

I don't think I ever experienced traditional gender roles as positive. They were just arbitrarily-assigned restrictions, corners of human life that were roped off with a "do not enter" sign.

 

[Aaron112]

Understanding YHVH's rules through all history and all Scripture is very rare it seems.
It is truly a gift from Him if anyone has understanding.
His Way is Always Perfect (not just "right"), in Perfect Wisdom and Perfect Understanding and Perfect Knowledge.
His Way is Best. There is nothing else remotely close to His Way. (His Way high as heaven is above the earth/men's thoughts) .
The widespread mis-information that seems to contradict His Way, and leads people into errors,
is difficult to correct, in fact impossible without His Grace; yet He Provides Truth to all who seek Him and keep seeking Him to live His Way.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I grew up in a very conservative religious household with male-dominated prescribed gender roles. However, my grandparents who were even more conservative and religious than my parents were very egalitarian in their marriage and business, which I reckon was an anomaly given the rest of their religious views. From my observations of both parents and grandparents lives and relationships, I came to value egalitarian roles and relationships and wanted that for myself. From the two primary examples in my life, it seemed to me that being egalitarian was more mutually satisfying than gender dominance. My marriage is based upon equality, partnership, mutual respect, and toleration of differences. I wanted an independent woman with a backbone, and I got it.

As I think about it, my siblings are also all very egalitarian despite our parents having been otherwise.

 

[Aaron112]

From my observations of both parents and grandparents lives and relationships, I came to value egalitarian roles and relationships and wanted that for myself.

This is perhaps very common, though not at all Scriptural.
The population raised in the world, of the world, seeing the world's ways and views, and
the apparent things they consider 'good', continue the world's way, naturally, free from God's Instructions and Directions and Plan and Purpose.

 

[MehGuy]

This is perhaps very common, though not at all Scriptural.
The population raised in the world, of the world, seeing the world's ways and views, and
the apparent things they consider 'good', continue the world's way, naturally, free from God's Instructions and Directions and Plan and Purpose.

How do you feel about the gender roles God has given? Happiness, indifference or something you believe is right but you personally have a hard time participating in?

I do not ask with any ill will. I just want to understand the psychology beneath.

 

[Aaron112]

Avoid anything of men, of the world.
Trust The Creator by Faith in Jesus, YHVH Willing a Gift!
He is Right.
Men are distracted or worse.

 

[seeking.IAM]

This is perhaps very common, though not at all Scriptural.

Yeah, admittedly I am not always in sync with some of Paul's vision for the early church. But Jesus said the two shall become one flesh. That sounds awfully like full partnership and egalitarianism to me.

 

[Bradskii]

Avoid anything of men, of the world.
Trust The Creator by Faith in Jesus, YHVH Willing a Gift!
He is Right.
Men are distracted or worse.

I think the question was more about your personal views. If God had said nothing about the matter, of even said 'Hey, I'll let you guys decide how men and women relate to each other' then what would your view be?

 

[Paidiske]

Saying this, I am curious how many people here have always considered themselves egalitarian? That the sexes should be treated equally? Furthermore, I am also curious if you grew up in a conservative, liberal or a mixed environment?

I would describe the home I grew up in as socially conservative, not particularly religious (we didn't go to church, although my mother has, I think, a genuine faith), and deeply abusive (that last bit is important because I think it's a fellow-traveller with the ideology that rejects equality; both are all about control).

My first instinct as a young adult was to be less egalitarian, I guess because those were the messages I had received about how things should work. Ironically, although my mother in particular will present her views as not very egalitarian, if you look at the way she and dad lived, in fact I would be hard pressed to identify an instance when they were not treating each other as equals and working as a team.

But as I left school and discovered the reality of barriers women face in the world, and started to read more widely and think for myself, I grew into an egalitarian take over time. I also grew in understanding how profoundly egalitarian the Scriptures are, and how "gender roles" and the like come from a very distorted reading of them.

So, this yearning for dominance in men and submission in women is something that seems to be a psychological reality for some.

Makes me curious how many people fight these gender urges and how many find being an egalitarianism more of a natural state?

I do not find being restricted as a woman something I want, or have to fight against.

 

[linux.poet]

I also came from an abusive household, and found the "traditional" parts of my mom's thinking is what made her an easy victim for my dad. I basically was taught to associate femininity with weakness and took on several masculine hobbies and qualities to try and adopt a position of strength. I'm starting to move away from that now.

I lean toward egalitarianism mostly because my relationship perspective as regards men is still healing up a bit. It's really hard to trust male figures, and a traditional gender perspective leaves women as a victim of men's actions with no safety net. That's not what I want for my life. I also still want my own career and some space for myself. However, I still think of my perspective on all of this as a work in progress.

 

[Rose_bud]

I grew up in a very religious home. My mother was very submissive but my father was not traditional in the sense that he worked and she took care of the kids. He cooked(although not the greatest) and he cleaned (way better than my mother) but in other ways yes. She was not allowed to go out without him or do things without consulting and he mostly made the financial decisions (even though at a time she was the one that worked). Both had equal freedom in ministry though.

My husband was totally egalitarian from the start, and was very confused when I was pushing the opposite. Basically trying to manipulate him to be something I mistakenly believed was the biblical way of being (not my finest moments, thank you Jesus for the rescue). Now we are both egalitarian and more content with ourselves and each other.

 

[Robban]

Six sisters one brother, family first, hard times, so in short, "all hands on deck."

 

[MehGuy]

Six sisters one brother, family first, hard times, so in short, "all hands on deck."

I grew up with all sisters and no brothers. Strangely my Mom had only sisters and my father only had sisters too. My parents were actually surprised when they had me and I turned out to be a boy. When I was filling out my family tree I discovered that the trend of mainly having girls goes back generations.

I don't think it was hard times for me personally. Although I did grow up consuming a lot of female oriented media. Media that was often creepy and dark. Especially Lifetime movies.

None of my female relatives to my knowledge have any resentment towards men. Despite the media they like to consume.

At least my mother, she had an abusive upbringing, but it was her own mother and her aunts who were abusive. So that's probably why she never really gendered dysfunction. She would just occasionally let me know how bad some people can be.

 

[Robban]

I grew up with all sisters and no brothers. Strangely my Mom had only sisters and my father only had sisters too. My parents were actually surprised when they had me and I turned out to be a boy. When I was filling out my family tree I discovered that the trend of mainly having girls goes back generations.

I don't think it was hard times for me personally. Although I did grow up consuming a lot of female oriented media. Media that was often creepy and dark. Especially Lifetime movies.

None of my female relatives to my knowledge have any resentment towards men. Despite the media they like to consume.

At least my mother, she had an abusive upbringing, but it was her own mother and her aunts who were abusive. So that's probably why she never really gendered dysfunction. She would just occasionally let me know how bad some people can be.

Royal families who have only girls just have a queen instead,

so much for gender roles. Hehe.

 

[durangodawood]

Im egalitarian. Raised egalitarian, non-religious.

Im also fine if women for personal disposition reasons prefer to take on a submissive role in the various domains of life - so long as its not imposed on them.

 

[Chesterton]

Traditional gender roles were pushed on me, but I never personally subscribed to them.

This kind of made me laugh. How were they pushed on you?

Occasionally as man I will face out of nowhere ugly accusations that I want to control women and believe they should be submissive.

Sez the guy who's never been in a vanilla relationship. lol

 

[MehGuy]

This kind of made me laugh. How were they pushed on you?

I am not sure what you mean? They were not pushed on me in any extreme/violent manner. As a kid I felt comfortable pushing back.

The most I can say is that I felt somewhat worried I was contradicting God's word. Still that wasn't enough to sway me.

Sez the guy who's never been in a vanilla relationship. lol

Non-vanilla relationships differ greatly from one another psychologically. Even there dominance is a secondary factor.

Although I do not like using the word vanilla anymore, because I believe this stuff exists on a continuum. I can understand the appeal of a submissive woman, just that I am low on the spectrum in this regard. While it seems like others are quite high on the spectrum. Which isn't a problem unless you let these feelings influence your politics.

 

[Chesterton]

I am not sure what you mean? They were not pushed on me in any extreme/violent manner. As a kid I felt comfortable pushing back.

The most I can say is that I felt somewhat worried I was contradicting God's word. Still that wasn't enough to sway me.

I just wonder how gender roles were pushed on you. In my upbringing, they never even came up in conversation. It was like, the sky is blue and grass is green, and such obvious things didn't require discussion or persuasion.

 

[MehGuy]

I just wonder how gender roles were pushed on you. In my upbringing, they never even came up in conversation. It was like, the sky is blue and grass is green, and such obvious things didn't require discussion or persuasion.

Interesting. The need for a family to communicate/pressure a kid into confirming to their gender views will largely depend on how they observe their kid behaving naturally.